Debates of Feb. 3rd, 2005

Supply

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my Liberal colleague on the other side has read a very fine speech. I do not know whether he has any farmers in his riding. I have two federations of agriculture in my riding, the Dufferin Federation of Agriculture and the Peel Federation of Agriculture, and quite frankly, if I read that speech at a hall where they were holding a meeting, they would not only gag, they would throw me out of the hall.

Does the hon. member have any idea what is going on in the agricultural community? I know that someone in the Ministry of Agriculture wrote that speech, and it is a wonderful speech, but it is not what is happening out there. They are dying; they are literally dying.

I have a question for the member who gave that speech. One of the questions that is often asked of me is on the issue of subsidies from other jurisdictions, particularly from the Americans and the Europeans.

Canadian farmers talk about how they cannot possibly survive the competition with the subsidies being given by the Americans and the Europeans, and of course there has been discussion here today about how the Europeans are going to be increasing those subsidies. I understand the minister is into negotiations. My question for the member is this: how does the government intend to deal with that issue?

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked how the government intends to deal with that issue. He raised a number of points, so I guess he is allowing me to comment on all the points he raised.

I will advise the member that I do have farmers in my riding; I mentioned that at the outset. Maybe the member was in the lobby or listening to the TV. I have a northern Ontario riding. There are some dairy farmers, a small number of poultry farmers and quite a number of beef farmers. I would have no problem making those same comments at a meeting in my riding, with great respect to my colleague across the way.

Maybe the adage “the truth hurts” is what should apply in this case, because when I think back to my campaigns in 1993, 1997 and 2000 and looking first at the Reform, then the Alliance, then later the Conservative campaign platforms, it was antithetical to the right wing party or parties of this country to do anything to support communities. As a party, they are against supply management. I have--

[An hon. member]

We are not.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I can show members, in black and white, statements that the Conservatives, then the Alliance and earlier the Reform, would cancel regional economic development programs for Canada, and these are programs that help rural Canada, including our farming communities.

I know that FedNor in northern Ontario--and in fact the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food was the minister for FedNor at the time--supported the Algoma and Manitoulin federations of agriculture in some research on the state of agriculture in the future. They did some excellent research work which has allowed those farmers to do some very good planning.

In fact, northern Ontario, and I mentioned this in my remarks, has produced a disproportionately high share of leaders for Canadian agriculture, going back to Ron Bonnett, who is the president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture now, and the former CFA president, who is also from the Claybelt area of northern Ontario, and others.

As a government we do understand that agriculture is an integral part of rural Canada. I will underline that I think the point here is that the truth hurts: that we have responded significantly. Our minister, his parliamentary secretary and his team, along with the entire government and the Prime Minister, shoulder to shoulder, have taken the time to try to understand and to look to the future. We have to get out of this going from crisis to crisis. Farmers know that going from crisis to crisis is not the way to live, not the way to live properly and to live a happy life.

We need to deal with things like the levels of U.S. subsidization. I hope that the Conservatives, who feel they are so well aligned with the conservatives in the U.S., might at least pretend to have some influence on those conservatives south of the border, to have them ease up a bit, to bring some sense to the American approach to agriculture. It is so balkanized in the U.S., so parochial, that the system is almost dysfunctional. It is very politicized. At least in our country it is not politicized. At least in this country we respond to the realities of the challenges facing the agricultural sector.

There is tremendous pressure on the U.S. to deal with subsidies. In fact, when people send troops off to a war in Iraq and spend how many hundreds of billions of dollars doing what they claim is the right thing to do in Iraq, that is only going to lead to the need to deal with their own budget deficit, a budget deficit which I think may be in the neighbourhood of $400 billion a year and which in fact may end up, by the back door, causing downward pressure on U.S. subsidies. So I suppose we could thank the U.S. administration for that much anyway; it may need to deal with farm subsidies because of the money wasted on an unnecessary war in Iraq.

I will conclude my comments by saying that I am very proud of what this government has done in support of agriculture. No government is perfect, but I can say that we are intent and this minister is intent on day by day, week by week and problem by problem improving this government and Canada's response and supports for Canadian agriculture.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity and I want to thank the agriculture minister for being here to listen to this debate. My remarks are directed to him rather than the last speaker, who does not appear to really be familiar with farm programs. I also want to thank the agriculture minister for coming to my agriculture forum on January 13 and listening to farmers directly.

After the minister left, I received some letters from farmers who were frustrated because they could not talk with him directly. I am going to publicly read part of one letter. This one is from Monica Lipinski and is very representative of the letters I am getting in regard to the CAIS program.

In case I do not get through the whole letter, I will tell members that she makes three points. First, she explains why CAIS does not work and why it needs to be changed. Second, she then gives a very good example of how hugely bureaucratic and inefficient the program is and how that needs to change in order to serve farmers. Finally, the timeliness of payments is a huge concern, as is the way the payments are made.

I will begin with Monica's letter and outline for the agriculture minister her primary concern. She begins by saying that this is:

A program built for government savings, not for farmer's aid.

Averaging guarantees the farmer poverty.

Only in an occupation of farming does averaging take effect. Five year averaging of income and expenses, then taking out the good and the disaster years, only guarantees the farmer a poor income. How can it improve if you never show the best year. Plus our expenses are sky rocketing every year, and inflation is never factored in for the farmer.

Farmers are penalized for good management and having a good year. This high year is deleted from the five year averaging. This unfair act will never give the farmer a fair payment.

During a disaster year, this disaster year is deleted, along with the good year. How can you accurately calculate if a farmer needs aid if you take the bad year away?

What should be done, is take the good year and subtract the disaster year. The difference should be what the farmer should get as a payment. Easy calculation, saving millions of dollars in administration. There should also be a percent increase, taking inflation into account. This would aid the farmer in coping with sky rocketing expenses that the government will not put a cap on.

In other words, in my own words, the structure of this program is extremely flawed. It is not helping those who need it most.

Ms. Lipinski goes on to talk about the huge administrative inefficiencies and the lack of payments in a timely fashion.

This debate is absolutely essential in the sense that the government needs to address the agriculture crisis immediately. It cannot wait for a month or two from now. Farmers need some cash right now so they can plant their crops in the spring.

I appreciate the minister listening to this. I hope he will take some of these points. I will forward these letters to him so that he can read them at his leisure.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am aware that my friend from Yorkton—Melville directed his constituent's concerns to the minister. I presume that either he will table it here today or will personally deliver Monica Lipinski's letter to the minister.

I think the principal point here is that this minister and this government have been listening. The member mentioned a town hall or a public meeting in his riding which the minister attended. Not only do I commend the member for his efforts in support of his constituents, I also commend the minister for being there to listen. I know that of the minister myself having had much experience with him as a colleague. I will not get into the details of the letter; I will let the minister deal with it directly.

To comment on the member's initial comments about how maybe I am not an expert on all the programs, I hope the member will take the view that members like me, who do not have as many farmers in their ridings as he does, and in fact urban members who participate, are all interested in this.

We may not be experts like the member is or a few of his colleagues might be, or at least claim to be, but we are interested. Perhaps I can count my farmers in the few hundreds as opposed to thousands, but we are interested. We want to support our minister and this government, as no doubt, and appropriately, the opposition would want to do to make sure that our agricultural sector becomes stronger and that stability is the order of the day for the future.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Lethbridge.

I want to thank the Leader of the Official Opposition for giving us the opportunity today to debate agriculture, which far too often is missed out in the banter that exists in the House as we go through our speeches. In all the issues that we debate for Canada, we often lose sight of how important agriculture is to Canada. I want to thank our agriculture critic for bringing forward the motion which gives us the opportunity to debate the CAIS program and how it has not functioned well for producers across the country.

I am a farmer. The riding I represent is agriculture based. Our constituency office has been overrun with complaints. Producers are looking for solutions to all the problems they are experiencing with the CAIS program. There have been nothing but delays since the program was announced. People are still waiting for their cash advances going back to 2003.

We know by talking to administrators of the program that they were originally trying to get forms completed within 60 days. That stretched out to 90 days. Now we are hearing that new clients are still looking at a turnaround of 120 days if there are no problems. If there are problems, if there are any questions or things do not quite line up or reconcile with the producer's income tax filing, the whole thing is delayed even further. That is completely unacceptable.

Producers are extremely frustrated with the program. When they talk to people in the CAIS administration on the phone, they continually get different answers. The misinformation is creating so much confusion, producers do not know which way to turn. Producers have similar problems when they phone CAIS and get different answers. It just does not seem to line up. That is why the program has not been working. It is dysfunctional.

The other complaint we hear is that it is too complicated. The process is complicated. It requires expert accounting advice to get the forms done. Producers are taking out money to pay accountants to file their CAIS applications. They are paying fees in the $500 to $2,000 range, depending upon the size of the farm, money which would have been better left in the hands of the farmers. The joke around town is that CAIS actually stands for the Canadian chartered accountant income stabilization program. The accountants are being well-served by the program.

At the same time it costs the government a lot of money to administer the program because of the lengthy time it takes to process applications and the extra administrators required, which takes money out of the program. That money could have been better used to service the producers.

The other problem we hear about is inventory evaluations. The inventories are set at the end of the year by a very standard level that does not reflect what is the actual value on the farm. I know producers who have livestock and those mandatory values that are put in place do not represent the actual value of the animals they have on hand. We have even had problems with some of those numbers.

An example is that at the end of the year, the steer and heifer prices for 2003 were mixed up. The heifer price was at the steer price and the steer price was down at the heifer price and it screwed up the evaluations of those inventories for the eight-weights. That has created quite a problem. At least it got acknowledged, but it had already affected a lot of producers, and if they did not pick up on the discrepancy, they got shortchanged because of it.

There is also the complication for producers who have year ends that do not coincide with the calendar year. If their year ends occur in the middle of the crop year, crop on hand and crop in the ground mess up inventories again. Producers are really struggling with that, especially when farmers have cattle on feed and heifers on grass, and again, not having a true evaluation of how those inventories are working.

We are here to talk about the removal of the deposit program, which makes a lot of sense. Ever since the program was announced, the deposit requirements and the rules have changed continually. First producers had to put their money up front. They could take their NISA funds and transfer them over to match their deposits into the CAIS program. Then they were told that they only had to put a third in and they would get two-thirds back. These rules continually changed.

The cleanest thing to do especially for the individuals who put in NISA money and wanted to get that money back to pay taxes at the end of the year when the two-thirds refund was available is to cancel the deposit requirement completely. Let us make it a lot simpler.

We should allow producers to keep that money in their own hands. It is not giving them any benefit by having it in the CAIS program. With the dire needs today in agriculture, let the producers keep that money on hand to pay off some bills, to invest in next year's crops, to buy fertilizer, to buy fuel, to be better prepared for next year.

It is not just the opposition that is suggesting this. Keystone Agricultural Producers and the president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture have also announced that they would like to see an end to the deposit. It is something that does not make a lot of sense anymore considering the situation in agriculture today.

One of the things the Leader of the Opposition announced today is that we do not believe the disaster assistance part of CAIS should have been put into the whole farm approach. CAIS was meant to be there to average income over the whole farm aspect. When there are disasters such as BSE, such as dramatic falls in commodity prices because of trade actions, we need to take those problems out and not lump them into the CAIS program. The delivery is too slow. Producers need help quickly. Disaster programs should be set up as a third tier and should be available from the government standpoint to support the industry. That is something we believe in dramatically.

I realize that when BSE compensation was being bantered about in trying to figure out how to best deliver it, there was advice from the industry to the government that it should be delivered through CAIS. As a member of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association and as a producer, I am thoroughly disappointed that the recommendation ever came forward. It was poor planning.

I realize that the Minister of Agriculture has only been in his job for the past seven months. I realize that he inherited these problems from past ministers. However he has the power to make the changes necessary to implement the program that would work for the agriculture industry, that would support the family farm. As the House has heard today there has been a great amount of hurt on the family farm.

My family loves farming. My children and my brother and his kids all want to have a future in agriculture. We need to make sure that we build programs and support an industry so that it can grow and prosper and be an industry that we can continue to be proud of. As a farm family we are going to fight to make sure that opportunity exists for future generations. This is the time for the government to take action, to take the bull by the horns, as is said, and make the necessary changes.

There have been many comments made about how many government dollars have gone into the industry and how much support has been there. I have said in the House before that I know through the BSE crisis the losses that I have suffered on our farm have come close to $400 per head. The total government support available to me so far has been $45 a head.

It is a huge disproportionate loss over things that are not at all related to management or markets. It is about a complete reshift in what has happened through trade action because of one cow, although it is now up to three cows, with a disease that is not necessarily being evaluated on science. Hopefully we are getting there and we are making the strides necessary to make sure that all decisions and rules that are being brought together will be reflective of the science and the true problem of the disease.

In conclusion, it is great that we are able to debate such an important topic as the Canadian agriculture industry today.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I want to compliment the member on his strict adherence to the rules of the House. I know he would have wanted to recognize the fact that his wife and his children are here in the House to observe his speech, but in wanting to stay within the rules, I would never mention that.

I want to ask the hon. member a specific question about his speech, particularly on the issue of support programming. It is in relation to a principle of producers sharing in the business risk management programs of the government. In the suggestion made by his leader there is the suggestion that it would be part of it, the one-third portion being talked about.

If deposits were to be dropped, how would the member see the principle of sharing in business risk management being adhered to, or would he think that is a necessary component?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Prior to getting the answer, I commend the minister for not mentioning the colour of clothing that the member's family members are wearing. As he well knows, we are not to mention, except for the Speaker, who visitors are but the minister knows this.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as a party policy we believe in producer participation in whole farm insurance. The difference here is that the CAIS program is being used to deliver disaster assistance. We firmly believe that disaster assistance is the sole responsibility of the government. If the disaster assistance that is currently being delivered through CAIS was taken out and delivered in a more effective manner, we could go back and look at producer participation and sharing in the whole farm risk management program.

I do not have a problem with that principle, but the program has gone through a metamorphosis. It has gone from being whole farm into disaster assistance. It is trying to do too much. That is why we are starting to see the wheels fall off it. It is time to look at making some changes. The Olympic five year average is something that we hear a lot of problems about. Maybe we need to look at a longer term. A 10 year rolling average would probably be more effective for producers. It is one which would recognize that there would be some bad years but there would be good years which we need to recognize too. In Olympic averaging that does not happen.

Let us balance it better. Let us take it over a longer term to be more reflective and more realistic of the big picture in agriculture. Let us take the disaster part out and deliver that more specifically to the commodities that need it on a per unit basis. Let us make government responsible for those things that happen outside the norm.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Selkirk—Interlake is a new member of Parliament who came here in the last election. He is representing his constituents very well. His constituents in Manitoba are well served.

Never has there been such a level of pessimism going into a spring as what we are seeing right now. The member brought forward the fact that people are coming in with their CAIS forms, and are coming in with their frustrations and concerns. Everyone who is coming in is dissatisfied with the way the program is set up. They are dissatisfied with the way the program delivers. They are frustrated with the forms. They are frustrated with the fact that they are in a terrible predicament on the farm. They are looking for help and answers.

I commend the minister for being here and to listen to this debate. I also commend him for attending the forum which the hon. member for Yorkton—Melville had last fall. At that time the minister said that the CAIS program is a three-legged stool of support involving the federal government, its provincial counterparts and farmers, adding that the producers should remember in many cases it is a work in progress. He said that a review process is under development for CAIS. That is from The Western Producer . His parliamentary secretary is touring the country and he is quoted in the same edition as saying, “We have a problem”.

I would suggest that the problem is that three-legged stool. The problem is that one of the legs of the stool cannot line up. The producers are frustrated. They do not have the cashflow. They are in the worst predicament they have been in after successive droughts and BSE and commodity prices for canola that was $9 or $10 a bushel now being $5.50 a bushel.

Could the member tell us with regard to the CAIS program, are we asking that the portion of the farm be dropped, given that we are going into the spring and March is the deadline, is that the big frustration that a lot of the farmers are having?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, yes, farmers are very frustrated. There is no doubt that taking out the deposit requirement will allow farmers to keep more of their dollars which will allow them to put crop in the ground, pay for the fertilizer and continue on with their farming operations until this blows over.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are here today debating a motion brought forward by the official opposition to deal with the requirements of CAIS to provide farmers upfront with some money to get involved. I want to switch a bit and bring forward some other issues that have been brought to my attention over the last number of months and deal with the grain and oilseed section of our agricultural community.

The facts are there for all of us to see. Over the last 30 years there has been a steady decline in returns to agriculture. Agriculture has gone from a high of approximately 30 years ago of over $4 billion in a year of returns to farmers at a time when the accumulated debt of the agriculture community was very small, to last year when the entire agriculture community actually lost money and the accumulated debt in the agriculture sector has become absolutely huge.

This indication of rising debt and lower returns clearly indicates that there is a problem, which has been going on for some time, and that nothing that has been brought forward to date has helped to reverse that.

I would like to mention the BSE issue. The BSE crisis in the cattle industry has taken hundreds of millions of dollars out of Canada and out of the pockets of primary producers and that is money that we will never get back. From the time the border opens to the time we get back to a normal cattle industry, it will be business as usual, but those lost revenues over the last two years are forever lost.

I want to mention the CFIA. CFIA officials gave us a briefing yesterday on their actions to date on the BSE investigations and trace outs. However I believe they must be very cautious in how they proceed. Every word they say is listened to by producers in Canada because it affects the markets. It is also listened to by producers across the border in the United States, producers working to keep the border closed. I indicated to CFIA officials yesterday that they should be very cautious in what they say and the timing of it.

This week the National Cattlemen's Beef Association is holding its annual meeting in San Antonio. It will be addressing the issue of opening the border to Canadian cattle on March 7. So far the NCBA has stayed on side and I hope it stays that way. It has been in Canada and has looked at our systems. It has been on our farms. It realizes what we have done up here as far as our feed ban is concerned, how we are processing our cattle, how we are tracing our cattle and the fact that our health regulations have been top notch, and therefore there is no scientific reason to keep the border closed. I hope it stays on science.

One of the issues that was brought to me, which I was not completely aware of beforehand, has to do with the Canadian Grain Commission. We are all familiar with the issue of bonding but the other issue of grading is the one I wish to get into.

When producers sell their grain through a licensed and bonded grain dealer, it is the responsibility of the Canadian Grain Commission to make sure that business has enough bonding in place to cover the exposure that the primary producer has when he sells his grain. That is not happening.

A couple of grain companies in my riding have gone broke and, as a result, the producer has been stuck for the value of his commodity. Recently some were paid 25¢ on the $1 for what they were owed. One-quarter of what they thought they had coming to them does not do it. This is just another problem facing producers. They felt they were covered with respect to this bonding issue because the Canadian Grain Commission was supposed to monitor it but they now find out they are not covered.

The other issue I want to mention is grading. I understand there is a difference in the way grain is being graded today as compared to the way it was traditionally done. This is called falling numbers, which actually deals with how wheat is processed and then baked into bread. As this transition takes place, somewhere in the middle the producer is stuck with a lower grade than his grain actually is. In some cases, we could be talking 80¢ to a $1 a bushel. In any operation that is a difference between making it and not making it. That issue needs to be addressed and can be addressed quite easily.

I understand the grain commission is looking at changing the way it bonds licensed grain sellers and buyers. That is a positive move but it has to be done quickly. The people who are presently being stuck by not getting their paycheques for their grain are out of luck. We should move quickly to change that so producers are protected.

On the grading issue, if a producer is losing revenue because of a grading change then that should be stopped immediately and the producer should automatically be given the highest grading possible.

Another issue I mentioned to the minister this morning was the issue of the European Union going back to heavily subsidizing its grain production. Two million tonnes of wheat will receive export subsidies, plus it will be giving subsidies for internal growth. That distorts production, distorts the world market and will further drive commodity prices down for our producers.

When these people come to us as members of Parliament expressing their concern that they do not see any way out of this issue, that is where they are. They have looked at all the options. They have looked at futures, at different commodities and at different farming practices. They have tried everything but returns to the agricultural community continue to decline. The numbers are there to indicate that is happening and nothing that has been done to date has helped to change that.

The other issue is the European Union and the U.S. making bilateral agreements between the two of them. If they continue to do that, this puts Canada out on the edge and not involved. The WTO's Doha round was one of the hopes that we had in the agriculture community, that if this did go through, if countries were forced to give up their export subsidies and their production distorting domestic subsidies then we would start to see some sanity come back to the grain market, but that is not happening. With the EU and the U.S. working against what is going on in the WTO, the chances of our producers seeing any more returns for their commodities is non-existent. Any hope that we had in that avenue as far as the WTO is concerned in my mind is gone because it is starting to fall apart.

Our government, our negotiators and the ag minister have to be very forceful when we are dealing with these big trade organizations so that we get what we need to keep our producers going. So far we have not done that. I think being more forceful at the negotiating table is a big part of where we need to go to help stabilize the industry.

The minister talked about the APF, the agricultural policy framework, and how that is supposed to help the agriculture community down the road. We have heard talk about repositioning the cattle industry. Discussions are ongoing and the parliamentary secretary has been across Canada to receive input. I see that as just more talk and that has not been delivering the results needed.

I believe the suggestion we brought forward today is a concrete step that can be taken to immediately put some infusion of cash into an area that is badly needed. It is the farmers' own money that we are saying should not be taken from them. The money should be left with them.

Some of these issues may seem trivial to many but they are not trivial to the six or seven young grain and oil seed farmers with whom I spoke. They were in the 40 to 50 year old range, and in our farming community those are young farmers. They told me that the revenue cap was exceeded by the CPR this year by some $300,000, and somewhere along the line the CPR has to give that money back and they have to pay a penalty on it, but it goes to the Western Grains Research Foundation. These folks told to me that that money should go back to the producers, and when they sell their grain, in order for them not to have an automatic deduction on their grain sales that goes to the grain research foundation, it is a negative option billing that exists. They have to notify the grain commissioner or the Canadian Wheat Board that they do not want to pay that, and if they do not notify them they pay it. These are not huge dollars but this is the point to which these people are trying to operate and the pennies they are chasing to keep them on the farm.

The other issue is the initial payment and trying to increase the initial payment from the Canadian Wheat Board when they sell their grain through the board. They want the payments to get out quicker and the percentages to be higher so they have more cash.

The producers are also worried about the freight charges. When anybody who sells grain on the Prairies through the Canadian Wheat Board receives that cheque and a deduction is made for the freight to get it to the coast, it takes over one- third of that cheque just to pay it. They are talking about the Crow rate again. The Crow rate is gone but maybe there is something else that we need to look at? Is there another way to keep more money where it belongs?

The producers are not asking for government programs or handouts. They are asking that they be allowed to keep more of what they have earned, that more of the value of the grain can end up in their pockets. The value of the grain certainly needs to be higher in order for this to be sustainable. Right now, if grain is selling for $3 a bushel, the producers are saying that they need more of that $3 in their pocket at the end of the sale so they can keep operating.

I look forward to the rest of the debate today and I appreciate the opportunity that the Leader of the Opposition and our agriculture critic has given the House to debate agriculture.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, let me first make a comment that I suspect is on behalf of many people in the House, and that is with regard to the hon. member defining the 40 to 50 year old group as young. We are very appreciative of that point.

The member moved a little away from the CAIS issue and talked about a few other things, such as the grain producers. One of the issues that has been discussed in the farming community has been the issue of the spring and fall advances. A number of suggestions have been made about how they can be changed to be made more effective. I have been listening very closely to producers as they have made their interventions in that respect and agree with the need to make some changes.

I would be interested to know from the member, who has a tremendous amount of experience in this respect, how he would see changes in the spring and fall advances.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will provide one example to help explain what the minister has asked. A few months ago a producer was hauling grain to the elevator and when the spring advance was taken off, he was taking home 18¢ a bushel. He said that he was not even going to make his fuel payment by doing that because the advance, however much it was, was almost the total value of what he was receiving on his initial payment for the grain. His comment was that, regardless of what the advance was, the initial payment needed to be more. He needed to realize upfront more of the value of the crop that he was selling. The issue of the advances includes all of the tweaking that gets done and the options farmers have when they market their grain through the Board.

It has been stated here today that my party does not support the Canadian Wheat Board. We are against the monopoly of the Wheat Board. We have never ever advocated that the Wheat Board should not exist. We believe farmers should have the option of who they use to sell their wheat, malt and barley through.

Let us look at all of the things that have been done. I come back to the point that everything that has been done, all the talk, all the tweaking and all the options that have been put forward to producers to use as management tools as they go through their operations are not working to the extent that they need to in order to keep their operations viable. We have to go outside of the box entirely. We have to look at different ways of managing the system that is in place.

There is one thing that really surprised me. I have been a farmer for a short period of time. I have some farmland but I do not really consider myself a farmer. However it seemed to me that when I did not have much grain, I received a pretty good price for it but when I had a lot of grain, I did not receive much of a price for it. No matter what I would do, at the end of the year it is about the same. If I have a great crop, which I need almost every year now to make ends meet, the value is less. If I do not have a great crop, then there is lots of money for the bushels. Somewhere at some point in time we need to have a year where we get lots of bushels with higher prices. That just does not seem to happen too much in the agriculture community.

All of the things we have tried have failed to bring us to a point where the agriculture community has not lost money, an absolutely damning statistic that comes forward. We have to start making some really dramatic changes on how we think about this industry if we are going to stay, as Canada has been developed, an agricultural based country. The agriculture community built this country. It needs help and it needs help now.

Let us all work together and come up with some solutions. I think the one we have brought forward today is something we can do immediately to leave more money in the farmers' pockets.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the minister for sticking through the debate today and for recognizing the experience that not only my colleague from Lethbridge has but a lot of our colleagues have who have farm backgrounds, and people like myself who farmed for 19 years, a grain farm of some 3,000 acres. Indeed, my brother still operates that grain farm. We do have a wealth of experience on this side of the chamber, particularly in the official opposition when it comes to agriculture.

I want to pick up on a comment that my colleague from Lethbridge made at the end because that is the fundamental issue that we need to deal with today, and it is the sense of urgency. I hear it all the time from the agricultural industry in Prince George—Peace River. If we do not do something, and I implore the government and the Minister of Agriculture today, for these people who are the backbone of rural Canada, we will not have an agricultural industry in the very near future. I wonder if my colleague from Lethbridge shares that sense of urgency.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Absolutely, I do Mr. Speaker. Whether one is in Peace River, Swift Current, Selkirk—Interlake or wherever one is in the country from coast to coast, it is the same message that we are hearing across the country. The message is not isolated and it is not a small issue. The urgency is there. Let us act.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will point out before I begin that I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Laurentides—Labelle.

The Conservatives have launched the debate on the federal government's inability to deliver financial relief to struggling farmers.

My colleague, the member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant and Bloc Québécois agriculture critic, spoke this morning about the Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization program and the urgency of abolishing the mandatory deposit.

Producers are in fact obliged to use their operating credits for this deposit and some of them are left wondering whether they will have enough money to keep their farm in operation. This is just one more proof of the federal government's abandonment of the agricultural sector. Now more than ever, the producers are under-supported when they are in the midst of an agricultural crisis caused by plummeting prices and the mad cow crisis.

The Liberal government ought to abolish this deposit requirement and put emergency measures in place in Quebec to help all the farmers who are crying out for help. As the member for Berthier—Maskinongé, I represent a riding in which agriculture plays an important role. There is a very broad range of agricultural operations. Dairy, swine, beef, cereal crops and tobacco account for 75% of agricultural incomes, but there are no fewer than 28 different types of animal or crop operations.

Many new farm products are emerging, often in response to changes in consumer tastes or new requirements for production methods, such as organic farming. Still, the number of farmers in Quebec has dropped dramatically.

For example, in the regional municipality of Maskinongé, part of my riding, in 1957 there were over 955 working farms. Today there are only 788. Of course, shrinking farm incomes and the aging of the farming population explain this drop. Furthermore, there are no young people coming into this sector. In fact, according to the 2002 analysis, Profil de la relève agricole au Québec , on more than 200 farms there is no family member ready to take over and these farms are likely to be handed over to someone who is not related.

The Bloc Québécois is proposing practical solutions to improve the situation of agricultural succession in Quebec. For example, in order to make it more attractive to transfer a farm than to dismantle it, the Bloc Québécois proposes increasing the allowable capital gain for farm property from $500,000 to $1 million, but only for transactions where the farming operation continues.

We also propose extending the rollover rule to transfers other than those between parent and child. The Bloc Québécois suggests extending the transfer rule to other immediate family members under 40 years of age: brothers, sisters, nephews and nieces, for example.

In addition, we encourage the establishment of an agricultural savings transfer system to enable farmers to build up a tax-sheltered retirement fund. Governments could make a contribution as they do for registered education savings plans. This contribution would be conditional on maintaining the farm after a transfer.

The third proposal from the Bloc Québécois is to relax the rules of the home buyers' plan to enable young farmers to acquire, in whole or in part, a larger share of a residence held by a company, and to use their RRSPs to purchase a business.

Finally, we suggest that the federal government transfer recurring funding to Quebec to encourage agricultural renewal.

For example, the Government of Quebec could extend eligibility for start-up subsidies, improve interest rate protection and increase eligibility ceilings.

As you can see, we have interesting proposals that are suited to farmers' needs in Quebec and sometimes in Canada. All we need is the political will, but the Liberal government is not budging.

I want to talk about another area where the government is lacking political will, and that is the federal program for tobacco farmers in Quebec. I agree with my colleague, the member for Joliette and Bloc Québécois critic for international trade, globalization and international financial institutions, that this industry is very important to our region.

On November 23, 2004, the federal government announced with great pride the conditions and deadlines for the aid package for tobacco farmers that would provide them with compensation for the decline in tobacco production in Quebec and Ontario. However, a week later we learn that the program for the public sale of quotas was delayed and no new deadline was set. According to the flue-cured tobacco farmers in Quebec, the situation in Ontario suggests there will be no agreement on this. Accordingly, an already difficult situation for Quebec farmers just might get worse.

In conclusion, this file, like many others, shows how the Liberal government's inaction and wait and see attitude threatens the survival of Quebec farms. When this government does intervene, it is to implement Canada-wide measures that do not respond to farmers' needs in Quebec. Farming in Quebec is organized differently than in Canada and does not have the same needs.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of my Bloc colleague. I also appreciate that the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food is still here in the House listening to this debate.

Before I read another letter, I would like to summarize what farmers in my area are telling me about the CAIS program. They are saying that we urgently need to do something for farmers. Agriculture producers are hurting and especially across Saskatchewan where there has been an untimely frost. August 20 was a devastating night. We had a very cold summer. That night the temperature when to -3°C and -4°C in many locations, absolutely devastating crops. The quality and the quantity was greatly affected.

Many of the comments that are coming forward are as a result of this. The farmers are not only affected by the BSE crisis and the border closure to beef, but now the grain prices have been hit very hard. The farmers complain a lot about the bureaucratic nature of our programs and the fact that other countries stand behind their food producers to a much greater extent than Canada does.

Getting to the letter from Karen Walden, she writes:

I am writing concerning the disaster in the west. I am enclosing some grain tickets to show what the railways and elevators receive compared to farmers. Our end amount was $887.72 which went toward cash advances is what we would have received, compared to $2,383.41 for freight, trucking, et cetera.

These numbers are just astounding. This means she did not get the money. In other words, the amount that the farmer received, almost $900, compared to about $2,400 going for freight, indicates how much of a problem these farmers have. Then she goes on to say:

We'll be lucky to get another $1 on payments. In fact, the U.S. upped their subsidies to their farmers. We need a disaster payment and not to be run through the CAIS program as we need the money now. The CAIS program is too flawed to be a disaster program. Payments are too late.

I would urge the government to seriously consider putting the CAIS program aside and addressing the agriculture programs right now in an urgent way because of what has happened in Saskatchewan.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the question.

[An hon. member]

He made a comment; he took advantage of it.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I heard a comment. Could the member for Laurentides—Labelle be recognized now to proceed with the debate?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

I understand the intention of the hon. member, but before another member may take the floor, there are two minutes remaining for questions and comments.

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I have one quick comment and a question.

I may not have the quote exactly right but if I understood the translation, the hon. member said, “never have producers received so little support”. I understand we may have a debate in this House about how we should provide the support, but $4.8 billion in 2003 represents record payments to producers in the country. That is a reality, that is a fact and that is something that should be clearly stated. The member should not say something that is not entirely accurate.

Second, the member also said that none of the programs were of any assistance to Quebec producers. When the Canadian Dairy Commission provided a $5.00 price increase for milk, did that not assist producers in Quebec and specifically that a portion of it, $1.66, was to help with the older animal issue?

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to answer the minister's question, of course, there are programs. However, for several months now, the Bloc Québécois has been here in the House and has been telling the minister that, overall, these programs are insufficient, for both dairy producers and the mad cow crisis. Quebec farmers need more support.

Currently, two farms shut down each week in Quebec. Current aid is, therefore, insufficient. The Bloc Québécois is asking the federal government to invest more so as to maintain our family farms; otherwise, in a few years, none will remain in Quebec. They are important to the Quebec economy.

So, it is in this context that we are intervening.