Debates of May 19th, 2005

Budget Implementation Act, 2005

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in only four minutes I will try to paint the picture.

I am pleased that the end of my speech comes today because in the meantime I had a chance to read in this morning's papers—these are not our words—a good article in Le Droit by a journalist reporting on cattle farmers begging for help two years after the mad cow crisis. In Quebec, in addition to the anniversary of the 1980 referendum, tomorrow marks the two-year anniversary of the beginning of the mad cow crisis. We had expected to find help for farmers in this budget. Allow me to quote the president of the Union des producteurs agricoles:

Federal programs are geared more toward western farmers and still do not meet the needs of Quebec cull and dairy farmers.

It is absolutely clear, in our opinion, that this budget provides nothing to help farmers in Quebec, beef, cull and dairy farmers in particular. These three sectors are in crisis.

Now I want to talk about the famous foundations. Amendments are proposed in the budget, and the Auditor General's mandate is to be extended to agencies that received at least $100 million in funding within the last five consecutive fiscal years. Each word is significant. If money was received one year and not the next, then more money was received in the third year, this amendment is not applicable.

The Bloc Québécois has been calling for changes to foundations for many years. I was not in the House two years ago when I heard my colleagues repeatedly call for the elimination of these foundations for which the government and the members do not have oversight. As a result, we are asking the House not to vote in favour of this budget, which would see funding continue to go to these foundations. Between March 1 and 31, the government allocated over $3 billion to these foundations. This is unacceptable. As elected representatives, we have no oversight or control over these foundations. I repeat, this is unacceptable.

I want to conclude with a final word about seniors. The amazing thing is that this budget will amend the Old Age Security Act so that our seniors receive an additional $18 per month. This is huge. This is staggering. This is a disgrace. We should vote against this budget just for that. Obviously, we are in favour of giving seniors a bit more money, but we have been asking for ages for this bill to be made retroactive and for our seniors to receive, retroactively, the guaranteed income supplement payments that were stolen from them. This is the only word we have to describe this situation. They were not told, and they are entitled to that money.

There will be 54 of us voting against this budget this evening. I will not be the only one saying this: I am asking the House not to vote in favour of this budget and to ensure that this government is defeated on this confidence vote. If so, this evening would mark the start of an election.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Madam Speaker, I appreciated the end of my colleague's speech, as well as the beginning, which I was here yesterday to hear. He tried to summarize in 10 minutes all the mistakes in this budget, as well as its shortcomings as far as Quebec is concerned. He ended by touching on the seniors issue.

Given his announcement of a planned increase in old age pensions, I would like to hear his opinion on the fact that seniors have been robbed for the past 10 years. The increase announced in the budget will start in 2006, if the promises in the budget are kept. This means that those who have been fleeced will continue to be fleeced. They are making out that they have already paid out money but the seniors will get it only over the next four years. I would like to hear my colleague's reaction on that.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague. I hope this will not be the last question he asks in this House because he is a great help to us. We hope he will reconsider his decision. In the event he does not, I would like to thank him very much for the work he has done on behalf of seniors. It is thanks to him that we on this side have alerted the government about the situation of our seniors, as we will continue to do.

The bill states as follows:

—increase the guaranteed income supplement by $18 a month for single pensioners and by $14.50 a month for each pensioner in a couple, effective January 2006.

Not next week, but January 2006.

Also, the amendments increase the allowance by $14.50 a month and the allowance for the survivor by $18 a month, effective January 2006. In addition, the amendments provide for identical increases to the guaranteed income supplement, the allowance and the allowance for the survivor in January 2007.

Not only is there no effort made toward retroactivity, to giving back the money taken, the money of which seniors were deprived, but as well the increases start only in January 2006. This is totally ridiculous. The budget should be voted down on that alone.

[Sébastien Gagnon, Bloc, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Madam Speaker, our region of Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean was hard hit in recent years by major crises such as the softwood lumber dispute and the mad cow crisis. Now, we have to set about reorganizing the economic structure of the large and major businesses in the area, which are producing twice as much but creating half as many jobs. I cannot see the people of my region supporting this budget, in light of these harsh realities and this government's insensitivity.

I would like know what my hon. colleague's perception of these realities is. He too is from a major resource area, namely Abitibi-Témiscamingue. I would like him to share his thoughts about this insensitivity of the federal government to resource areas like ours.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Jonquière—Alma for his excellent question. It gives me an opportunity to mention that, in my riding of Abitibi—Témiscamingue, our livelihood depends on four main resources: agriculture, forestry, mines and, more recently, tourism. Three out of these four industries are ailing.We are starting to see some mining exploration, in response to a huge demand. Agriculture, I already commented on. As for forestry, it is currently facing a serious crisis.

What we have asked for and will ask for again is that the Program for Older Worker Adjustment be implemented. The POWA would have helped with the rationalization and it would have made the current crisis more bearable. It would have allowed older people to enjoy the retirement they deserve.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is extremely important that I speak to this today on behalf of my constituents.

Obviously there is going to be a very important vote tonight. I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of weeks talking to constituents and knocking on doors and it is overwhelmingly clear that those constituents do not want an election. It is also overwhelmingly clear that they want the budget passed. This is a document that represents many of their important priorities. I will talk about those in a moment.

After a week of obstructing Parliament, the Leader of the Opposition said that he would allow it to continue, that he would allow it to make it to this point in debate. I think Canadians want that to occur. They want Parliament to work.

As vice-chair of Canada's public accounts committee, I was deeply disappointed that four meetings in a row, including meetings into this week on national security, on a passport action plan and on setting the priorities for the Auditor General for the coming year, were totally ignored. They were missed by members of both the Conservative and the separatist parties, who decided they did not feel like showing up at the committee. We had witnesses from across the country at the committee, which is supposed to be an example of non-partisan cooperation between parties. We could not even conduct business. I think that is truly wrong.

This budget shows that we as the Liberal Party in a minority government position are prepared to work with other parties in Parliament. We looked at what our priorities are as a governing party and asked how we could build upon them and work with some of the other parties. We found in the New Democratic Party a party that was willing to compromise and work with us in the spirit of what this minority government is supposed to be all about.

I will talk a little bit about what the budget means, particularly for my riding of Ajax—Pickering and Durham region, but also in a broader context for Canada.

Having been a municipal councillor, I will start with the cities and communities agenda and the new deal. I was a city councillor for seven years with both the region of Durham and the city of Pickering. The needs the municipalities face are huge in terms of infrastructure and helping to support a sustainable environment in transit and mobility. We have a Prime Minister and a party that recognize this and want to take action.

In regard to the new deal we have for cities and communities, I have already had an opportunity to talk with the town of Ajax and the city of Pickering about what specific projects we could implement, should this budget pass, to better integrate transit with the greater Toronto area, for example, how we could create a pedestrian bridge that would connect right from the GO train to downtown Pickering into a new corporate centre that people are willing to build if this piece of infrastructure is there.

We can see just on a micro level that this has real meaning and impact for municipalities and allows them to do projects they could not otherwise contemplate. When we roll that out across the country, we should consider that cities are the economic engines of this nation. Not only will this make a difference in terms of reducing gridlock, improving transportation and thus improving our environment, but it is also going to greatly improve our economy and make sure we have a sustainable economy into the future.

I can also say that in my riding of Ajax—Pickering we have one of the highest percentages of families. We have a huge number of people who, like me, have children. I have three children. My wife did make a choice to stay home with the children, but the reality is that there is a great number of people who do not, who work and who need to ensure that those children they have and are nurturing have an environment that does not just take care of them but in fact prepares them for the rest of their lives.

One thing we have seen is that if we can make sure that children get all the enrichment they need and are given the tools they need in those formative years, they will be successful in the rest of their lives. Our plan is not a day care plan. This is a national early learning strategy that really focuses in on those early years. It makes sure that we give them priority so that we give children the base they need to be successful in the future. Again, that is the best thing for the future of our nation.

This is also probably the greenest budget this nation has ever seen. I was extremely pleased to see the measures to support Kyoto. It builds upon the commitment that has been made.

We should also take a look at what we did in the automotive sector. I am very proud of that, coming from a region where we work very closely with the automotive sector. We found a voluntary agreement. We sat down with the manufacturers of automobiles and asked how we could work together to collaboratively reduce emissions. We came up with a deal that would see a reduction of roughly 25% in vehicle emissions in the next number of years. That is going to make a huge difference.

This budget builds upon that and makes sure that we are going to achieve those Kyoto goals. When we see what is happening in our north, when we see what is happening to the climate, when we see mountains that for thousands of years were snow-capped and we now see that snow evaporating, and when we see the ice shield receding, we know we have to take action. I am very proud that this is a government that is leading the way and is going to help lead the next round of negotiations and what comes after Kyoto.

For constituents in my riding and for Canadians in general, what we are doing with the military is extremely important as well. We are increasing our military not just for the sake of having a larger military and not so we can enter into engagements like what has happened in Iraq, but quite the opposite. It is so we can play a role in the world in developing peace, so that we can be a force for peace in the world. I think the Prime Minister has to be commended for the actions he has taken in so many different parts of the world, in Darfur and Afghanistan, and there is also the role that Canada played in Haiti. We can continue to play those kinds of roles and be a stabilizing force for peace in the world.

Of course this budget also builds upon our priorities as they pertain to homelessness and housing and it is acting upon the needs of seniors. In my community we have a vibrant seniors community. I am deeply proud that we are going to be putting $2.7 billion toward a guaranteed income supplement to increase their benefits. That is going to be a real benefit. We know we have to do more, but it is a great starting place. With programs like new horizons and others, this budget really does put seniors at the forefront in recognizing them as a priority.

I do want to speak for a second about the priorities that we built upon with our colleagues from the New Democratic Party, because I am particularly proud of this. Canadians asked this minority government to work, this government came here for it to work and we took priorities that we had and found ways to enhance and build upon them. We put $1.6 billion toward affordable housing, $1.5 billion toward education, another $1 billion in environmental measures and half a billion for foreign aid. I would suggest that these are all priorities for the Liberal Party, very much so, so it was indeed a pleasure to see our budget enhanced and built upon by finding these areas of commonality.

However, the key in this budget, with all of the wonderful things I have just outlined, is that we keep a balanced book. The reality is that Canada is the only nation right now that is in the black, not the red. When we take a look at the fact that we have done this for eight years in a row, we see that it is a first in Canada's history. I think that is a remarkable accomplishment. Let us look at the government that preceded us. It had eight consecutive years of massive deficits, ending in its last year with a $42 billion deficit. Members can imagine the impact of that.

Because of these surpluses we have been generating each and every year, we have begun to be able to pay down the debt to the tune of $50 billion. That means roughly $3 billion each and every year that we have as a result of reduced interest payments.

As well, when we look at the facts that our unemployment rate is 6.8%, our employment rate now exceeds that of U.S. and we have the fastest growth in the average standard of living of all G-8 nations, we see how far we have come. Imagine being here in 1993, at a time when the Wall Street Journal was saying that we were an honorary member of the third world, at a time when our unemployment rate was 14% and interest rates were at 12%.

At that time, I and others in my generation were told to forget about CPP, that it was done, it was over. Let me point out that because of the actions of this government it is now guaranteed for the next 75 years. That is a remarkable achievement. Let us take a look at what is happening in the United States and the uncertainty of its social security system. People in Canada know that they can count on CPP. That is a very important achievement for this government.

As we go forward, I think we need to balance these priorities. We need to make sure we keep our commitments but do not promise the world. One of the things that concerns me greatly as I listen to members of the Conservative Party is how quickly they are running around and saying, “Do not worry. We are going to defeat the budget, but essentially we agree with everything in it. We are going to keep those commitments, plus we are going to give massive tax cuts”. That is a recipe for disaster.

I do not think Canadians will buy the fact that we are going to have an election simply because the Conservatives want to do the same things, because they want to keep the same commitments we have made only they want to give more tax breaks.

The reality is that we are still going to have a minority government in all likelihood. We need to make it work and we are here to work. We are here to govern. We are here to work with the other parties. I hope they are all willing to do the same.

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Madam Speaker, I listened intently to the member's comments. I asked a question of one of his colleagues the other day. He spoke of two things and I wonder if he might elaborate a little. He talked about infrastructure funding and also about the day care and child care program that the Liberals are presenting as a national package.

We have heard the talk in cities across Canada about the need for infrastructure. The roads are crumbling in many cities. They are in dire need of some sort of assistance and see this as a way to it. I wonder if the member knows if there is a factor or a process in which amounts of dollars may be applied to different projects.

Also, in regard to the announced child care program, can the member tell us and tell Canadians how many new child care vacancies or spaces as far as accepting children into the program is concerned would be available in his constituency?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Madam Speaker, the truth is of course that all of these matters are currently being negotiated. Let us take a look at infrastructure in particular. We have dedicated 5¢ a litre of existing gas tax revenues toward municipalities. We have been working very hard with all of the municipal associations. In fact, in Ontario we now have an agreement with AMO in terms of how the money will be split up.

Obviously one of the questions was about where we have upper and lower tier municipalities and how we divide this. For example, in Ajax--Pickering, we have the town of Ajax and the city of Pickering, but we also have the region of Durham. Both of them provide important services. There are important questions about how we divide it up, but the reality is that we are extremely close. In fact, next week, I understand, there is going to be a deal struck so that we can see exactly how those dollars can flow.

Therefore, we know in rough terms what those funds are going to mean for each municipality. As I said, as a member of Parliament I can already sit down with those councils and talk in a very real and meaningful way about the types of things that will happen specifically for our community.

I referenced one of those projects, an important pedestrian link that is going to connect our GO transit system with Pickering's downtown. That is a huge project and it is one that people in the western end of Durham are very excited about. There similar projects in Ajax that we are in discussions about.

In terms of a national child care strategy, it is much the same answer. We know what the objective is. The money has been very clearly set out. We are currently in closing negotiations with the province of Ontario. When those negotiations are concluded, we will be able to give firm numbers in terms of exactly how many spots we are going to be able to open.

What we do know is that the moneys we have set aside and the willingness of the provinces, as we have discussed, is going to lead to great improvements in early learning. For families with young children it will mean a great opportunity and the assurance that their children will go into an environment where they are nurtured and enriched and where they are prepared for the rest of their lives.

I would urge the hon. member to support this budget so these important measures can move forward.

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member who just spoke and waxed rather eloquent about the contribution of the money to the cities. I think that is a very interesting comment. I want to assure him that if the Conservatives become the new Government of Canada, the commitments that have been made, for example in Vancouver, British Columbia, will indeed be honoured.

I want to address a more specific question. It has to do with the $300 million municipal green fund. In the budget itself, the indication is that there will be about $150 million or thereabouts to clean up the brownfield sites. Yet when I look at the implementation bill, which is what we are dealing with right now, I see that part 8 of that particular bill does not refer at all to the cleaning up of the brownfield sites.

Can the hon. member assure us that the money allocated, actually stated in the budget itself, will indeed come into play and into existence in the administration of the municipal green fund?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am glad the hon. member brought to the attention of the House the green enabling funds. Before I answer the question, I was very pleased to attend last's week first announcement, which happened to be in my riding, of dollars flowing directly to municipalities, in this case to the city of Pickering. It is an excellent example of how these dollars will work.

The funds will enable the municipality to move forward with a plan to build a sustainable community. For people who know the Ajax Pickering area, it is one of the fastest growing areas in the nation. These funds will enable us to build a sustainable model of how this development can continue and to ensure that we have a balance between the economic interests of our area and, more particularly, the environment as well, as we move forward.

In terms of brownfield sites, I have had an opportunity to talk to the minister about this issue. He has given me his commitment. This also will play an important role to help clean up brownfield sites. I hope, with some of the money given to the city of Pickering, that it will plan to also deal with some of the brownfield sites.

Before I close on this point, although I appreciate the assurance of the hon. member that the Conservative Party would do the same thing, I do not share that same level of security. The Conservative Party platform last time was to kill three of the four existing infrastructure programs. At its past policy convention, it also passed a resolution that said it did not believe giving the money municipalities was the right way to go. The party did not believe in the new deal. Its sudden enlightenment on this issue does not give me a great deal of confidence. I would suggest that if the hon. member supports these measures, he should support the budget.

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I cannot help but comment on that last point because the hon. member referred to our convention. The important thing is to recognize exactly what the resolution was that we passed at the convention. It states:

A Conservative government will reduce federal gasoline taxes conditional on an agreement with the provinces that they will use this tax room to fund infrastructure in provincial and municipal jurisdictions.

What could be clearer than that kind of a commitment which is that we will do this? This was our convention, our membership and the Conservative Party position. I would like to encourage the hon. member to take things as they are and not put all kinds of interpretations on them.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Madam Speaker, if we listen specifically to what the hon. member said, therein lies the problem. The Conservative Party would give the money to the provinces. It will not give it to the municipalities and we feel that we need to give the money directly to municipalities to let them be the ones to decide what they want to do.

I do not feel comfortable handing money over to Ralph Klein hoping that it makes its way into the hands of the municipalities. That is the wrong way to go and municipalities across the country have said that. Just as important, one thing we have to recognize about the announcement on the gas tax is that we keep the infrastructure programs.

What the Conservative Party is suggesting would take us back even worse than we were before the new deal. It would scrap three out of four of the infrastructure programs and then it would do a shell game where it would give the money to the provinces. The net amount to municipalities is the same before we even begin the new deal. It would just do it in a shell game. Instead of giving it to municipalities and empowering them, it would give it directly to people like Mr. Klein, who frankly I do not believe has the knowledge on a local basis of those individual projects that one has in municipalities.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am very honoured to stand in defence of Canadian taxpayers when we talk about the implementation of a Liberal budget bill. I would like to begin my intervention by responding somewhat to what the hon. member for Ajax--Pickering said.

He said that he did not want to trust the democratically elected provincial governments. Canadian taxpayers have had it, first, with their money going to ad scam agencies and then seeing whether they are getting value for their dollar. There is a considerable difference. I am proud to be in a party that will respect the Constitution of Canada. We will not override the constitutional rights and responsibilities of the provinces in order to funnel money directly to people to buy their votes. That is wrong.

Our plan is very reasonable. When we form the government, we will make a deal with the provinces and that deal will include ironclad guarantees that money will go to municipalities for the programs they need, and it is very evident that they need it. That is very evident.

If that member does not trust elected provincial governments, then I do not know what we will do in the country.

We have another problem with the government. Under its watch, we have had the greatest increase ever in Quebec's mood to secede from Canada. That is despicable. Canada is a wonderful country. We all need each other. Quebec needs to be a viable part of our country.

In the next election the separatist members in this place will probably increase their membership because of the fact that the federal government does not respect the constitutional rights and responsibilities of the provinces. Quebec's gripe is the same gripe that western Canada and the Atlantic provinces have. The Liberals insist on, and I will use a seriously bad word, raping the financial abilities of the provinces, the workers and businesses in those provinces and then gingerly giving back money the way it wants to whomever it wants as long as it helps them get another electoral success. That will not happen. I can hardly wait until Canadians give their judgment on that corrupt government.

Bill C-43 is an enigma to me. There are all kinds of promises in it. There are many parts in Bill C-43 to implement different parts of the budget. The Liberals thrive on announcements. They love announcing stuff. They announce the same money over and over again. The Prime Minister and government ministers fly all over the country on the Challenger jet to announce money that has been announced before. There is never any new money. Meanwhile, some farmers on the prairies are literally going broke. This is sad. They are in total despair. Some of them are even taking their own lives because they cannot cope. Meanwhile the government continues to announce money but never pays up.

This legislation announces promised tax reductions. The way those people spin it is in itself a tremendous dishonesty to Canadian taxpayers. The much touted $100 billion tax reduction is over 10 years. Why did the government not say that it was $20 billion and then in little letters say that it would be over 20 years? It is not nearly as much as those members are claiming. As far as an annual budget is concerned, it is $10 billion a year, but most of that money is not effective until five, six or eight years down the road when the Liberals hope to still be in power. We trust they will not be.

The same is true with the tax cuts. Bill C-43 speaks to a reduction of $16 a year or 30¢ a week. I do know what Canadian taxpayers will do with all that money. It goes up a bit to $192 a year, by the year 2009. Why are we talking with such urgency about promoting and passing a budget bill that will not come into effect for another four years in its full impact? By then I hope we have a government that will address the real needs of Canadian taxpayers.

Later today I will be voting in favour of the bill. Some will say that after all the negative things I have said, how can I bring myself to do that? Let me tell a little story.

I was in a restaurant not very long ago and somebody in an adjacent table was quite upset, called the waiter over and asked for a new bowl of soup because there was something in it. I do know what was in it, but it was replaced. I remember when I was a youngster growing up in what at that time was a poor family. We had trouble making ends meet. I remember on more than one occasion there would one of those little black houseflies in our soup. Did we throw out the soup and demand a new one? I hate to admit it, and some members will be grossed out by this, but we took that little old fly very carefully out of the soup. We stirred the soup and we ate it because it was that or nothing.

I will vote for the budget bill today, notwithstanding that there are some flies in it. I will take it because of the good things in it.

The Liberals are such charlatans. They give us a bunch of stuff that we should have, but then they throw in stuff that is totally rejected by Canadian taxpayers and by our party. Instead of using their heads and compromising with us, who have the numbers to sustain them so we could have this Parliament work, they make a deal with the NDP. That is the other bill we will vote on tonight, a bill that we cannot support. Basically they are saying to the Canadian people that they do not want Parliament to work. Instead they make a deal with somebody who does not have enough numbers so they can pass the bill. It will be defeated tonight, I sincerely trust.

However, we will support this bill because of the good things in it. I must pay particular attention to the Atlantic accord. I want to ensure that people understand this deal. The Atlantic accord actually began during the last election campaign. Recognizing the needs of the Atlantic people, our leader said that we would have to ensure that they would become financially self-sufficient. They are proud and hard-working people. They should be allowed to keep the money they earn so they can become self-sufficient. He is the one who started this. Then the Prime Minister chimed in and said that the Liberals would do the same because he wanted to win the election, but he lost a number of seats despite that effort.

Finally, we are getting the government, dragged, kicking and screaming, to agree to the Atlantic accord. If the Liberals would have simply brought that in stand alone legislation, as we have requested over and over again, it could have been passed a couple of months ago. Did they do this? No, they sat on their butts and delayed it. Now they have put it in with a bunch of flies in the soup in order to see whether they could persuade us to vote against it. We will not fall for that trick. We will vote for it because of the Atlantic accord and the fact that Canadian people need that part.

At the same time, we are outright rejecting some of the other parts. They are the flies. When we form the government, we will bring in all the good parts of these budgetary measures, except that we will accelerate the tax cuts and show some assistance to Canadians in a real and tangible way, something that makes a bigger difference to them than 16 lousy dollars a year.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, I was listening to my colleague speak and I agree with what he was saying, of course. One of the issues I would like him to expand on, when he talks about tax relief and leaving more money in the pockets of families, is the government's promise of money for child care. What would he do or what would he prefer to see in the budget instead of the plan that is in place now to create this huge bureaucracy?

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to talk about this. If there is anything that I value, it is my family, my wife and my children, and of course, I value very highly the solid family that I grew up in.

I grew up in days when there were very few child care spaces. It was just a fact of our generation. In those days, mostly the men, but sometimes the women, would go out and earn the living while the other one stayed home to look after the children. I am happy to tell members that all of our children so far, who have given us grandchildren, have chosen that same route, where there will be, for the sake of the children, a full time parent at home. I think this is wonderful.

I think that Canadians across this country, if they stopped to think about it, would say that we should provide help for people who need help looking after their children, but that we should give them a choice in what kind of help they need. In many cases, they would forgo a second salary in order to give the very best assistance and best training, and best care for their children by having one of the parents at home. I think that Canadians should have a choice and that is what our party would support.

There are many people across this country who live far away from these so-called institutionalized day care centres. They would not have access to them, but they would still have to pay the taxes to fund them. There are many people who choose not to.

If I may, I would like to give a personal example. It just so happens that my wife and I sort of adopted a family that lives just a couple of miles from our house. My wife, by the time our kids were gone from home, was well trained in child rearing. We raised three perfect kids, so she had the credentials. She had no degree, but there they were, three perfect children. She got a job with this family we adopted and she became their live-in day care helper and basically helped that mother raise her three children. There was no institutional day care. My wife did not have a degree. She did not have any formal credentials. However, I will tell members that she was the most qualified person in the world to give good, loving care to those children.

I do not see any reason in the world why we should force more families to leave their children at home, for both spouses to go out and work to earn money to pay an ever increasing tax bill, and not give them the choice on what kind of care they could have for their children if that is a necessity.

Even beyond that, I think it is atrocious that nowadays almost all families have a requirement for both spouses to work because of the fact, as all studies show, that half of every family's income goes to taxes at all the different levels anyway. In other words, when the second parent goes out to work, usually it is simply to help pay all the taxes that are there. If we could have some meaningful tax reductions for families, then of course that would open up a whole new level of choices.

The Liberal government is so wrong in the approach that it is using here. It is unfortunate that it is taking away from parents their right to make choices on the most valuable thing that they have, and that is their children.

I have often said that I can choose which place I go to get my car repaired. Why can I not choose who is going to look after my children and why can I not have that choice made by me, in a country as rich as ours?

[Réal Lapierre, Bloc, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my saying that the Bloc Québécois was chosen by the Quebec public to represent it at this level of government will come as no surprise. We have proposed to Quebeckers that we become the defenders of two essentials. The first is to promote balanced federal-provincial policy based on Canada's Constitution, that is, respecting the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces and Quebec. The second is to promote good management of public funds according to the needs of all parties concerned, that is, management taking Canada's real revenues into account.

We were elected with a majority. The people of Quebec put their trust in us. They put their trust in our vision, our calculations and our judgment.

We have made the expectations of Quebeckers known to this government. Have we asked for anything so wrong, so impossible, that no favourable response, no positive measure, is forthcoming in support of the needs of people in Quebec?

We asked to have the fiscal imbalance recognized in figures and not just in theory. Private negotiations on many occasions with a number of provinces have confirmed the merits of that request. In fact, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador will be receiving equalization offset payments until 2020 and initial payments of $800 million and $2 billion, respectively. To that we add the recent agreement with the Ontario premier, and we have proof that it is high time for an updated method of allocating federal funds.

As we have been saying loud and clear for a long time, the equalization system is totally outdated. Its founding principle, financial equality among the provinces, no longer meets the requirements of the situation.

These piecemeal agreements can only undermine the credibility of the principle of equalization, hence the urgency of settling the shameful differences between the provincial budgets and the federal budget, now known as the fiscal imbalance.

The money needed to maintain and improve education must be transferred quickly to the provinces and Quebec. The tax field of the goods and services tax must be transferred, unless personal income points are redistributed, and the CHT and the CST eliminated once and for all. This is no whim, but a matter of justice and fairness. It is no luxury, but a necessity.

We are calling for an independent EI fund that is not managed by political decision-makers, with eligibility criteria that are acceptable to all workers and a realistic benefit period. There is nothing in the budget for this, despite the numerous studies and analyses proving its merits. The only positive measure is the agreement with Quebec on parental leave. Is this not proof that Quebec, as we have said over and over again, is innovative, generous and a leader in terms of initiatives in Canada?

There is complete silence with regard to repaying the $46 billion misappropriated for unclear purposes. That is why it is essential, before changing the role of the employment insurance commission, to ensure that both it and the fund are independent. That is the only way to prevent such dubious practices from occurring in the future.

Does any area generate more sympathy or appeal more to the public's conscience than the environment?

The Bloc Québécois has made the Kyoto protocol a priority. In order to ensure its implementation, we called for more substantial aid for wind power, while eliminating tax incentives for non-renewable energy sources and nuclear energy. Given the current situation and Canada's commitment to the Kyoto process, is this not the least of what needs to be done?

We proposed incentives for public transportation users, by allowing them to claim their passes as a deductible. Are we asking for the moon? The increasing number of cars in urban centres is a plague, in terms of both health and public safety, not to mention all the other related problems. Here is one incentive that could have shown us just how serious the government is about getting on the environmental protection bandwagon and respecting its international commitments. This is a concrete, inexpensive and, what is more, effective measure. Instead, the government chose complexity yet again.

Who is it trying to convince that creating an emission reduction incentives agency will resolve the problem of air pollution? We have yet to learn the agency's scope, terms of reference, budget, powers and administration. We cannot support an idea that has not yet been defined. However, we would support tax credits for the purchase of hybrid vehicles.

Insofar as agriculture is concerned, the farmers caught in the mad cow disaster are still waiting for fair compensation for the difficulties they have endured. Cull cattle producers are still going through an unprecedented crisis. But there is nothing in this budget to help them escape the downturn into which they have been unjustly thrown. Regarding the issue of infrastructure and communities, we cannot support a project whose implementation would mean infringing on areas of provincial jurisdiction. So long as Quebec remains in charge of everything done within its borders and so long as no conditions are attached to the transfers, the deal for cities and communities will be acceptable.

When we look at the Income Tax Act, we are left with very little. Let us look closely at two points. The increase in the Canada child tax benefit from $1,681 to $2,000 is totally inadequate and fails to meet the needs of families. The increase in the registered pension plan and RRSP ceiling to $22,000 will only benefit the rich. How can we be expected to support measures that are clearly inadequate in many cases and in others too grandiose?

The Old Age Security Act provides for an increase in the income of older people, which is a positive. But what is going to be done about those people who failed to receive what was due to them in previous years? We will not stop insisting that their benefits should be fully retroactive. The 11-month limit that was imposed is unacceptable.

The Student Financial Assistance Act will help to lighten the burden that students bear in some cases, particularly in cases of death or permanent disability in families whose income is too low. We obviously support this measure, which will help people who are less well off deal with situations that are already difficult. However, I would like to add a caveat. At the very least, there should be a substantial increase in the transfers for social programs and post-secondary education. It will be recalled that the Prime Minister promised this during the election campaign.

Regarding the Millennium Scholarship Fund, it should be eliminated and the money for it should be given to Quebec, which would distribute it, since this falls within Quebec's jurisdiction.

This brief overview shows some of the shortcomings in the budget that they want us to support. The related issues are too important for Quebeckers. The Liberals had a fine opportunity to table a budget that would have been the envy of any modern society.

The government will have a surplus of nearly $50 billion to work with over the next three years, according to our forecasts, and we therefore had every reason to expect much better. There had to be political will, though, of a kind to which we have certainly not been accustomed by this government.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. member heard my speech in which I expressed my support for Quebec staying inside the country and us working cooperatively together to make this into a stronger country.

The old rule that I remember is that in matters of relationships like this, the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Each province in the country is much stronger because of the fact that we are part of a greater whole, and that is the whole country of Canada.

He mentioned equalization payments. I want him to know that our party is a firm believer in and a strong supporter of the principle of equalization. It is in the charter. We agree with it. It is good that citizens in all of the provinces can have comparable levels of services with comparable levels of taxation.

When I think of equalization, because he mentioned it in particular, obviously it is of benefit to some degree, at least as it is now, but I wonder whether he has given any consideration in his push for leaving our country as to the financial loss his province would suffer if this equalization were to be removed.

[Réal Lapierre, Bloc, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Madam Speaker, in response to my colleague, I will say this. Recently, comprehensive studies were conducted to examine the benefits from equalization in each province, and in Quebec in particular. To suggest, in the absence of any official assurances anyway, that, in its present form, the equalization system can be so beneficial to the people of Quebec is wrong.

Here is what we will be forever standing for as citizens and elected representatives of Quebec. Whether or not the formula can be amended and eventually corrected, we will never condone any interference with the prerogatives and priorities in Quebec's fields of jurisdiction.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, toward the end of his speech the member said that he supported significant increases in spending for social programs, and I think he mentioned post-secondary education. I completely agree with him about that. It is something I campaigned on very seriously during the last federal election and it is something I found lacking in the government's budget and in this budget bill that we are debating this morning. That is why the members of the New Democratic Party worked so hard in this Parliament to see a significant increase in spending for post-secondary education. That is why our better balanced budget bill includes that spending.

Why can the member not support ensuring that students across Canada get that increased funding, especially when we have seen in Quebec recently an incredible mobilization of the student community fighting for better post-secondary education in the province of Quebec?Students all across Canada have been doing that and here is an opportunity to take advantage of it. Why will he not be supporting that later today?

[Réal Lapierre, Bloc, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Madam Speaker, I want to point out to my hon. colleague that it is not because we have divergent political ideologies. No matter what, we cannot just dismiss out of hand any and every proposal from the other parties.

That said, I might add that Quebec has demonstrated its ability to develop the most integrated and the best child care system. The credit for that goes to the child care community in Quebec. Was federal intrusion necessary to achieve this? Absolutely not. We took the means to achieve our ends, in accordance with the wishes of the people.

As I indicated in my speech, additional funding is required for post-secondary education. But in that area as in others, this means that the federal government has to transfer funds to our provincial government. Believe me, we are wise enough and far-sighted enough to manage the money intelligently and soundly.

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is indeed an honour to speak to Bill C-43, the budget implementation bill that the government has presented to the House. However I do so with mixed feelings because we actually have before us two budgets. We have Bill C-43 and Bill C-48 which will be debated right after this particular debate collapses.

We need to recognize that certain elements in Bill C-43 are actually quite encouraging and we can support them, particularly the business of implementing the Atlantic accord. This is a very significant issue and we will be supporting it.

However there are some things that I believe the people of Canada and particularly the constituents of Kelowna—Lake Country need to be aware of. This budget implementation bill is not as great as it appears to be.

I want to speak in particular to the personal tax cuts and to tax cuts a little bit more generally because there seems to be a feeling among the Liberals of “Look at how benevolent we are. Look at what we are doing. We are cutting personal income taxes”.

Yes, indeed, the Liberals are cutting them: $16 next year. Most of us know there are 12 months in a year. If we divide 16 by 12, it does not leave us very much per month, does it? I suggest that there are not even enough tax cuts in each month to buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

The Liberals then go on to tell everyone what they will do in the future. Yes, by the time we get to 2009, four or five years from now, it will be $192 in savings. That is a pittance. If there is to be a tax cut, let us make it a real tax cut.

The interesting thing is that in those tax cuts and counterbalancing those tax cuts, we need to look at what the budget also does. It increases the overall spending of the government. If we look at it in some detail, we discover that in 1996-97 the real federal program spending per capita was $3,466. It will have risen to $4,255 by the year 2005-06, the year we are talking about now. That is an increase of $800 per capita in volume terms, or $3,200 for a family of four. The current Liberal spending plans will take it to $4,644 by 2009-10. That is a projected increase of almost $1,200 per person.

However increases in real government spending do not necessarily equate to solving problems or getting better results. Imagine if that same money had been left in the pockets of the citizens of Kelowna, for example. If they had put $1,000 of tax savings into an RRSP, which they should all be doing, and if that had been invested at 3.5% per year, and that is a very low level but is, at the same time, very realistic, that would result in a nest egg of $29,200 in 20 years and $53,000 in 30 years. A return of 5% would result in a nest egg of $34,000 and $69,000, almost $70,000 in 30 years.

It is pretty evident that if that money had been left in the hands of individual citizens and they had invested it as they wanted to do it and at these very minimal rates of return, they would have benefited far better than a measly $16 tax cut or, in 10 years, $192. That is on an individual basis.

We need to cut the taxes of industry. I have been an advocate of cutting taxes to business for a long time. There is a reason for this. What does not seem to be clear is that business employs people and it is business that actually is the economy of a country and makes the country work. It is business that creates new ideas, that innovates new products, that commercializes the findings of research, that actually conducts research to make better products, that makes the process of manufacturing a little bit more efficient, that provides employment for all kinds of people and that focuses the application of money in such a way that it gets the greatest resources.

We have a tremendous industrial sector and a great manufacturing sector in this country. However, by increasing the taxes and making the tax burden so heavy, these people are finding themselves hamstrung to do the innovation they know they can do but cannot implement because they do not have the capital to make it possible. They do not expand their plants or invest in machinery and equipment because the tax burden is too high.

There was a time when the government even had a capital tax. It really did not matter whether a business was doing anything at all. Simply by having invested millions of dollars in equipment and machinery, they were taxed on the fact they had put that money to work.

Can anyone imagine anything less economically stimulating than a capital tax, and yet that was done? It cost many people their jobs. It is such backward thinking to do that sort of thing and yet we do no have a reasonable tax cut for businesses in this budget. I cannot help but encourage members to think about increasing the tax cuts for business.

The other point I want to make has to do with trust and the management of our country's affairs. We will soon be debating Bill C-48. I will not go into it in any great detail but I want to refer to a provision in the bill that essentially provides $4.6 billion without a plan as to how that money will be spent.

We are in the business at the moment of listening to the discoveries of Justice Gomery. He is revealing what happened over the last number of years because there was a fund designed to build stronger unity in Canada, particularly with Quebec. Two hundred and fifty million dollars were spent in the advertising program to build things up but with no plan as to how that was supposed to actually be done. The result is that the money was spent not only willy-nilly but very clearly through fraudulent activities. We now know it as ad scam.

How did that ad scam program actually work? There are essentially three points. First, advertising agencies overcharged the federal sponsorship program with fake invoices for work that was never done. Second, the agencies then gave the money to Liberal Party workers and riding associations. Third, in some cases the agencies hired Liberal Party campaign workers and paid them using taxpayer money gained from the sponsorship program. I am sure some people listening want us to provide some evidence of this because we make these broad, sweeping statements. We had witnesses and testimony has been presented. Let me read into the record some of the testimony that was actually given to the Gomery commission.

Lafleur Communications took a commission of $112,500 for simply delivering a $750,000 cheque to VIA Rail. It received $112,500 to carry a cheque from one corporation to another? Those were taxpayer dollars.

Bernard Thiboutot of Groupaction funnelled cheques totalling $57,000 to Liberal Party organizers through an employee consulting company. These too were taxpayer dollars.

This is all sworn testimony.

Luc Lemay, whose companies took in $36 million in sponsorship contracts, testified that he paid Jacques Corriveau, a close friend of Jean Chrétien, nearly $7 million in commissions over the years. He said that Corriveau did little or no work for this money. These were taxpayer dollars.

Those are three examples.

In conclusion, I want to thank the people who voted for me in the last election. It has been an honour to represent them in this House, but at the same time I feel honour bound to tell them this about the budget. We will support this implementation bill at the end of this day because it has some good things in it, but I want them all to know that there are some things in this budget that are very wrong and they will see why in the debate on Bill C-48.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Madam Speaker, first, let me acknowledge the remarks of the member. He has served here for a number of years and in a relative way his remarks are probably about as objective as we are going to get from the opposition these days on some of those issues. I appreciate his efforts to be fair in dealing with those issues.

I would like to back up a little to his comments on the budget rather than the sponsorship inquiry because the budget is the subject of the debate here. I know that his party urges tax cuts. Actually, most of us on this side of the House urge tax cuts. I am hopeful that at some point we can address in a more robust way the corporate tax cut provisions that were initially part of the budget.

However, I am concerned, and I would like him to address this, that by urging major tax cuts one removes from government the ability to do things that Canadians want the government to do. The Conservative Party in Ontario tried that. It tried to push government into a smaller and smaller box. Ontarians did not accept it and those tax cuts pushed that government into a huge deficit position.

Tax cuts are fine provided that they allow government to continue to do what Canadians want government to do, and do not push us into deficit. Could I ask him to address that?

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I really appreciate that last phrase, “and do not push us into deficit”. I am sure the hon. member is only too well aware that it was this party and its predecessor that pushed for a balanced budget. I am thoroughly and completely committed to a balanced budget. That is where we want to go. I am so glad that the government of the day has in fact seen the light and the significance of that, and actually presented to this House and to the people of Canada a balanced budget.

Regarding tax cuts and the role of government, government should do those things that individual citizens cannot do for themselves or are unwilling to do for themselves. It is not the government's role to find how many different ways we can intrude into the lives of people and do things for them. It would be nice if that were done, but if left to their own devices they would do far better. I am a firm believer that the common sense of the common people and the individual's ability to apply money is far more successful and far more efficient than if left in the hands of politicians.

I would encourage governments to cut taxes and leave more money in the hands of the people. We will find them doing things for themselves that currently government has assumed that it has to do for them. Left with their own resources they will look after themselves extremely well and they will do far better than some of these programs that government thinks it must put in place.

There is a delicate balance that must take place here. I am a firm believer that it is the common sense of the common people and money left in their hands that will be spent much more effectively and efficiently than would ever be done by the government.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, the member for Kelowna--Lake Country said that there were some good things in the government's budget Bill C-43 and that he was going to vote for it on balance because he thought it merited his support. However, I understand from what he has said this morning that later tonight he will vote against Bill C-48 which will ultimately cause the defeat of the government, or would work toward the defeat of the government. This would undo all of those good things that he was supporting a few minutes ago in the main budget bill.

What does the hon. member have against ensuring that there is more affordable housing in Canada that will help people who live in poverty, who need housing, and who spend way too much money on housing right now? This budget will benefit the economy. We all know that the housing industry is a key aspect of our economy.

What does he have against post-secondary education spending and helping students who need assistance to get the education that they need so they can participate in the economy? What does he have against public transit and helping the environment, and all of those kinds of things which will benefit both our economy and our society?

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have nothing against helping people find affordable housing. One of the reasons there is not as much affordable housing as there could be is because there is an excessive tax burden on people who provide housing for people.

Regarding post-secondary education, we need to support it and we need to support it better than we have in the past. I also know that there would be even more private money supporting universities and other post-secondary institutions if the tax burden were not as high as it is for industry in particular.