House of Commons Hansard #13 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the intervention by the hon. member. I recognize him as an accomplished member and somewhat of an expert on law and certainly international law as well.

Our military has been underfunded for so many years under the previous administration. We are moving to help to rectify that. I hope the hon. member and others on his side are going to support measures that I trust will be in the budget tomorrow to help rebuild our military so we can play a bigger role in the world in situations like the one in Darfur.

One of the situations that has developed recently is the freezing of assets and travel restrictions on some of the people responsible for perpetrating the atrocities in Darfur. Does the hon. member think that Canada could be doing more? In the international community Canada could put a squeeze on that way.

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8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Chair, there must be a full range of approaches. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs has mentioned, the AU has not wanted non-African troops to be involved. That is not so much the problem.

It has been stated as well that Canada is the third largest contributor in terms of overall dollars, whether it is equipment logistics, humanitarian or food aid, whatever. Canada must move ahead on all these issues. A chapter VII Security Council resolution would assist all of the international community to put this whole range of pressures effectively on Sudan to try and end this humanitarian disaster.

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8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chair, there are 300,000 dead. Think how many people that is. We have great debates over several people dead. That is more than the population of most of the villages, cities and towns in Canada. It is hard to fathom. Two million people have been displaced from their homes. Food aid has been cut to 1,050 calories, about half of what a person needs, because people in the world are not donating enough food. Humanitarian aid is being kept away by the government in Khartoum. The UN Secretary General has said that this is the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

I want members of Parliament and those who are at home watching this debate to imagine a tribe of bandits swooping down on them tonight, taking over their homes, killing half of their families and driving the rest out into the desert with no means of shelter or subsistence. The civilized world cannot let this go on. Much more needs to be done.

I want to congratulate those who have worked so hard for years on this already, the member for Mount Royal, the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Senator Jaffer, Senator Dallaire, and former Prime Minister Martin, whose actions have led to Canada having been one of the largest contributors to date in aid, troops and support.

I have never been so proud as I was last September at the United Nations when Canada won that great victory of the responsibility to protect. The United Nations and the whole world accepted that principle to protect citizens when their own governments could not protect them from genocide. We need to use that moral authority. The world needs to use that moral authority to stop right now the murders and rapes in Darfur.

We have to save the people in Sudan in a way that does not lead to the same impressions that occurred in Iraq. It must not appear like an imperialist invading force which could then attract a whole bunch of terrorists from other places and create more problems. We need to do this by cooperating as much as possible with and sustaining, enhancing and supporting African organizations, African Union forces and the African Union. All the while we have to have the full weight of the UN forces under chapter VII behind us if need be.

This is a very complex situation. It is not simple. There are no parties that are entirely innocent and no parties that have been doing everything possible in the conflict to save human lives, to prevent humanitarian disasters and to prevent violation of human rights, such as rape.

The main reason I wanted to speak tonight is that for years I have been pushing our government, but at the same time, our constituents, Canadians, have been pushing us. In particular, Bill Klassen has been pushing me. I want to read what he has written to me so that Canadians get respect for the work they have been doing to push us to take action:

It seems obvious now that the presence of African Union troops in Darfur has not reduced the killing of innocent people by the Arab militia supported by the government in Khartoum. I think that it is time that the Canadian representative at the UN advocates condemning these atrocities as genocide and that a UN-supported force of sufficient size to be effective (20,000 troops?) be deployed. Some have suggested that these should come from nations in the region, rather than from European countries, the USA or Canada. I would support having Canadian troops there to help with the organization and direction of the intervention but substantial intervention is necessary, especially given the situation in Chad and refugees now fleeing back into Darfur.

I understand that Canada has reduced its aid level to one quarter of what it was under the previous government. If accurately reported, this is absolutely deplorable; the level of aid for Darfur from Canada should have been increased, not reduced!

I have not heard recently of any activity on Darfur by Senators Jaffer or Dalar [sic]. I trust they are still involved and working to resolve this sad situation.

Thank you for your continued concern and work on this matter.

This debate tonight is absolutely essential, as are all other efforts around the world. We have to open the eyes of the world so that people around the world give more food, give their governments the moral support to take strict action through the United Nations and to make the ideal of the responsibility to protect a reality in this world. If we do so, we will not only save thousands of lives in Darfur, prevent thousands of rapes and deaths from starvation but we will do the same in other spots in the world, lest we forget Zimbabwe, the Congo and Burma/Myanmar.

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8:30 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Chair, as others have said, UN officials describe the situation in Darfur as the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world today. People this evening have talked about the mass murders, the systemic rapes, a thousand villages torched and the more than 2.5 million displaced people, many still under attack in refugee camps.

The government of Sudan has clearly failed its people, so the international community, including Canada, must accept its responsibility to help protect the people of Sudan. Over the last three years the previous government has dragged its feet. Eleven years after Rwanda, have we really learned so little?

I ask the hon. member to clarify this. Does he believe that Canada should consider sending UN peacekeepers to bolster the troops offered through the African Union?

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8:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chair, it is very disappointing that the member opposite would be playing politics with such an issue. As I mentioned Canadians, including Bill Klassen of my riding whom I just quoted directly, many members of Parliament and senators have worked so hard to make Canada the third leading country in the world in support to that area. Canada should be commended for the work, and the leadership of the previous government, under Prime Minister Martin, and all those who have worked so hard.

I also said much more needed to be done. In fact I answered her a question in my speech. I said we needed to use the full military weight of the UN, possible under chapter 7, which of course uses Canadian troops. Canadian troops are already there, but we have to do it in a way that we do not invoke a similar crisis in Iraq, that we do not appear as imperialistic invading armies, subsequently attracting terrorists from all over the world and making the situation worse. We have to work closely with African organizations, the African Union, African troops and still bring the full weight of the world, as the member is suggesting, and bring more food aid. We have to do much more to stop this tragedy immediately.

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8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Chair, I asked very specific question earlier to which I did not get a response. We talk about chapter 7 and the United Nations forces and so on, and the potential for Canada to participate in that military force, with which we do not have to participate. Where does the hon. member see those troops coming from and, albeit under the UN flag, which country in the United Nations is equipped, trained and capable of leading that force?

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chair, the previous government two budgets ago has great increases in military equipment. In some areas we had the best equipment in the world. In some areas we do not have any equipment because that is not our strategic preference. In the budget after that, we increased the goal to 3,000 new troops.

The countries of the world have been very successful in peacekeeping missions, including Canada. They have very effective military leadership. They can and have prevented humanitarian disasters in the world, with great teamwork. They share the leadership.

In Afghanistan the leadership is transferred from country to country and has in many other peacekeeping and peace making conflicts in the world. I have no question whatsoever about the talent available in Canada and many other countries that do so much for peacekeeping. It takes the moral support of those countries to put the money, to put the diplomatic support, and give their government the moral support to take the strict actions they have to with the United Nations.

There are less important things happening in this world to which people can put their attention. When people are dying, being raped and are starving to death, I have no doubt we can do assist, and the resources are there. It needs the moral and the political support.

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:35 p.m.

Macleod Alberta

Conservative

Ted Menzies ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation

Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Saskatoon—Wanuskewin.

It is with great interest that I rise to participate in the debate this evening on the devastating state of affairs in Sudan, particularly in Darfur. I am also looking forward to hearing the views of my colleagues. We have already heard many of them from all sides of the House with respect to what is happening in that region and also with respect to the knowledge that these members of Parliament have gained through their great interest in what is happening there.

As we all know, the ongoing conflict has taken an enormous toll on the people of Sudan. With a population of approximately 42 million people, more than two million, mainly women and children, have died. Six million Sudanese have been forced to flee from their homes. In Darfur alone,it is estimated that two million people are internally displaced and more than 200,000 have fled next door to Chad.

Canadians are deeply troubled by the human suffering in Sudan and this concern is truly international. Canada must, therefore, continue to work closely with the United Nations and with the African Union to find a sustainable solution to this problem.

I am pleased to say that Canada is very much a part of the international efforts to secure peace and stability for the region and to provide much needed assistance that is saving lives.

Much of our current support is directed toward achieving a peace agreement in Darfur, one that is acceptable to all parties involved. For example, the Canadian International Development Agency has provided support for the comprehensive pre-peace agreement, an important initiative to stabilize the region and bring peace and prosperity, not only to Sudan but also to the African continent as a whole.

Last year, at the Oslo Donors' Conference on Sudan, Canada committed $90 million over two years to support the implementation of this peace agreement. As the minister announced earlier this evening, it is also pouring $10 million, as part of that agreement, immediately into helping the efforts of the world food program, help that is urgently needed to feed the people of Darfur.

We have been working with our partners to deliver humanitarian assistance to all parts of Sudan to address the needs of people affected by this civil strife.

In May 2005 Canada announced a further $170 million in technical and military assistance in support of the African Union mission in Sudan. Of this, CIDA manages $120 million used for helicopters and transporting troops and equipment for operations in Darfur, and to supply fuel for these aircraft.

As members can see, Canada is working hard to help the people of Darfur and throughout Sudan. These commitments are critically important and they will help to reduce violence, save lives and achieve peace and security in Sudan. This will in turn help to ensure international peace and security.

The road to peace and development in Sudan has been long and it has not been easy, but we must continue steadfast in meeting this all important goal. The people of Sudan will need our help and Canadians will be there to support them in their efforts to achieve peace and rebuild their country.

I am proud to say that the Government of Canada is fully committed to helping the people of Sudan, working in partnership with our Canadian and international partners.

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8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Chair, we have a moral duty to act to stop the carnage and unspeakable crimes that have taken place. We failed to act during Rwanda, the world failed to act during the holocaust that killed six million Jews, with crimes of indifference and silence. The often quoted axiom by Edmund Burke, “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing”, unfortunately still holds true today.

Since the outbreak of hostilities in 2003, the crisis in Darfur has resulted in 400,000 largely civilian deaths, the displacement of more than 2 million people and the suffering of millions more. The peace talks have dragged on for over two years, with no results, including today when the government of Sudan walked away from the negotiation table

The previous government sponsored a document, “Responsibility to Protect”, to the UN, which stipulates that if a sovereign state is unable or unwilling to protect its citizens from extreme harm, the international community must intervene.

Clearly in Darfur, would the member not agree that the threshold of this document has been met for a meaningful intervention?

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8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, I would beg to differ with the comment about indifference. I think we learned from that disaster. What we learned is the fact that this country and many others through the United Nations, through our responsibility to protect, need to step up.

I mentioned in my speech how much we have committed. In fact, I emailed a friend of mine at the World Food Programme today to get a person to person feeling for whether it felt we were doing enough. That person's comment to me was, yes, Canada is one of the leaders. We were in fourth place as to our contributions to the World Food Programme. With the extra commitment of $10 million, which the Minister for International Cooperation announced this evening, that increases us. In fact, it may take us up a level from that.

These people need that immediately. We cannot watch them starve. We are not being indifferent. We are stepping up and we are ensuring that they have food to eat. We are being part of the peace process. We are encouraging and working on that. This is a role that Canada can play. We have the expertise to work on that. Through this debate tonight, I hope we will come up with some better ways to participate in that peace making process.

DarfurGovernment Orders

May 1st, 2006 / 8:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I want to direct my comments and questions around our capacity to respond, and it is twofold. One is in the way of human resources, which has been referred to a bit tonight, and the other is in the way of financial capacity.

I turn to the estimates in the so-called blue book. On the pages that deal with foreign assistance, we see on page 1-17 that we are looking at an increase to CIDA and we are looking at a decrease of 38% in our international assistance to the transfer payments. That has to do with the fact that we had made some payments in forgiveness to the countries of Iraq and Montenegro.

What I do not see here, notwithstanding the fact that Sudan is referenced in the comments on CIDA, is the kind of commitment that we have seen to some of the other countries in terms of debt forgiveness. I have to question that and I look to tomorrow's budget.

However, we have a real dilemma as bystanders. We are bystanders in some ways because we do not have the human capacity and, what I see from the estimates document, we might very well not have the financial capacity.

I would like his comments on that, particularly on our financial capacity. Does he feel, having gone over the estimates in the blue book, that we are in a position where we can respond financially? Quite frankly, $10 million is not enough.

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, it is unfortunate that we do not have more time to respond to questions.

Capacity certainly is an issue. I do not think anybody is going to argue the point that we need capacity to help these people.

Regarding the hon. member's question about the debt forgiveness issue, I think that is the next step down the road. These people need food right now. As I spoke about earlier, our contribution of an extra $10 million is specifically for food so these people can continue to survive. Then we need to step in and expedite the peace process.

As a further step, we can then look at whether we address the debt forgiveness or how we further help these people. There is going to be a tremendous opportunity to help these people. There is a tremendous will in the Conservative government to increase aid. We spoke about it in our campaign and we will follow through on that commitment. It will be most interesting to see what our budget will bring for us tomorrow.

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Chair, this evening, in the debate on this very heavy subject of Darfur, I am grateful for the privilege to stand and have my voice counted for those who cannot speak for themselves today in that part of the world.

I had the opportunity last September to be in Khartoum and in Juba, Sudan in the south. Due to intermittent flights in that part of the world and arbitrary changes to the schedule, we did not quite reach Darfur but we did talk with many people who had been there, some of the aid groups, the various NGOs and so on, who told us about some of the horrific things that were happening in the Darfur area.

My concern for Darfur grows from the fact that if we do not resolve the major crisis in Darfur, there is a very good chance that the north-south comprehensive peace agreement will break down. I do believe the government in Khartoum is looking for the opportunity to blow apart that agreement.

What I heard over the period of time that I was in the Sudan was a growing concern. Other members who have followed this and monitored it closely and others who have been to that part of the world have obviously heard some of those reports as well. However I am encouraged by the fact that there is a growing will on the part of parliamentarians and a growing political will in this country for Canada to take a more decisive role in an international effort to stop the war crimes, the ethnic cleansing and the crimes against humanity.

I am also encouraged that our new Prime Minister raised this matter with President Bush in Cancun and that they agreed to work together on finding a solution. I am heartened by their discussion.

I am also grateful and encouraged by the fact that a large number of MPs from across party lines have called for more action. I am appreciative that the House is holding this debate tonight on Darfur as a result of the agreement between the House leaders in that respect.

It gave me hope when I heard the Prime Minister, in his speech on the Holocaust memorial and genocide, say that the world must never tolerate that happening again. It gave me hope because of the very serious situation in Darfur.

In his remarks of March 14 in Afghanistan, the Prime Minister said that we could not lead from the bleachers. I believe that with all my heart. I believe we have a country and a government that will be behind doing something better in respect to that part of the world. I want Canada to be that leader in the world at this point in time.

How Canada can do that is by starting to change our Sudan policy. Until this Parliament, Canada's Sudan policy was really that of a so-called constructive engagement in a previous regime and it simply has not worked. Before that carnage began in Darfur three years ago, more than 2 million people died and 4 million were displaced, driven from their homes in the oil fields of southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains.

The regime in northern Khartoum bears sole responsibility for that tragedy. The oil rich regime has killed and displaced its black African people with helicopter gunships and Arab militias. It has allowed its armed forces and militias to murder, rape and pillage with impunity and then deliberately allowed the survivors to starve to death. This has gone on for a number of years while the world has looked away.

In the last century the world blinked at Nazi aggression in Europe and World War II followed. Will the world now blink again, this time as radical aggression in Africa is being unleashed in Darfur?

While some argue that the Darfur horrors do not constitute genocide, no credible voice would deny that war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity are occurring there. Therefore, we need to lead as a country.

World leaders called it a moral imperative and resolved to go into Kosovo in the situation there. If European civilians can be saved in Kosovo why can Africans not be saved in Darfur? I believe it is racism. It is an issue of black Muslims there. It is an issue of Arab Muslims up in the north and it is an issue of racism.

If the African Union in the coming days of the peace process cannot go ahead, then we need to seriously look at moving in, in some fashion, on that situation. The black woman who is being viciously raped does not care if it is an African or a white person who steps in to intervene and rescue her. The man who is being brutally beaten and tortured does not care about the colour of the skin, nor does a child being violently traumatized.

Canada needs to leave the bleachers. It needs to lead. I ask for our country to do that in this horrific situation in Darfur, Sudan on the continent of Africa.

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8:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Chair, I was with the member opposite at the Scream for Darfur rally that took place yesterday at Queen's Park. We spoke of the need to have an action plan, including the enactment of the UN chapter 7, the UN Security Council banning flights over Darfur, the need to hold the Sudan government accountable for the rape and killing of thousands, the need to provide humanitarian assistance and the need to hold China accountable.

Would the member opposite agree with the statements made at the rally?

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Chair, as a member who was there the other day and heard the very passionate outpouring from a lot of youth from high school and colleges, as well as others, I agree with the sentiments that were expressed about the desperate need to move in respect to Darfur.

As has been said this evening, we do need to give the African Union a chance to lead. However the forces are under-resourced and they do not have the 20,000 that are probably required to be in that part of the world. We also have multilateral scenarios such as the UN's transition over from the Africa Union. If this situation is not resolved in a very quick timeframe, because we do not have much of a window, chapter 7 of the UN absolutely needs to be put into effect. This is a difficult thing to say but at the point where a country is actually killing its own citizens, some would say that it is giving up the sovereignty of its own country by way of the brutalization and killing of its own citizens.

Yes, if there is no action or remediation of this situation through the African Union or the UN in a transition, then we need to move in with chapter 7 in terms of getting a protection force on the ground in Darfur and in that part of the country.

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:55 p.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister

Mr. Chair, I would like to acknowledge the persistent efforts of my hon. friend from Saskatoon—Wanuskewin on this issue. I think he has been the most consistent spokesman within the government caucus for meaningful action to stop the ongoing genocide in Darfur. In fact, I believe it is mainly attributable to him that we are holding the debate tonight. I know he approached the government House leader with the initiative of a take note debate. I would like to commend him for his ongoing interest.

My friend opposite raised the question about the involvement of the People's Republic of China in Sudan in encouraging and supporting the regime. I wonder if the member could take the opportunity to comment on whether he thinks it is helpful that the PRC is the principal weapons supplier to the Sudanese regime and consistently vetoes virtually every resolution before the UN Security Council seeking meaningful action. Would he comment on whether this may or may not be linked to the extensive economic interests that foreign government has with the Sudanese regime?

DarfurGovernment Orders

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for his encouragement and the passion that he and a number of knowledgeable members in the House have in respect of Darfur and to Sudan in particular.

There is no question that these economic interests are a big driver in terms of some of the awful atrocities and conflicts that go on. Someone put it very well in an article I read, where the point was made that the whole issue of China has probably not been given enough attention in respect of Sudan and Darfur because most of the weapons that are used to kill, rape, plunder and so on are made in Sudan in Chinese factories. We can be sure that China is involved in a very significant and serious way. It is the oil interest. Different countries around the world need oil as, no doubt, does Sudan. China has a major role in the terrible things that have gone on there by way of the factories it has built in Sudan and all the armaments that are then used against its own citizenry. It is an awful thing.

China is as guilty as can be in respect of its complicity and involvement for economic interests. The brutal inhumanity of individuals occurring there is, in large part, through it constantly vetoing the motions that come forward at the United Nations as well. It is well served by this member to highlight China's involvement in the atrocities over there.

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9 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Chair, I find this debate on the extremely important issue of the civil war in Darfur, with all the horrors it entails, to be emotional and difficult.

Every effort possible must be made and implemented to protect against ethnic cleansing, genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Jan Egeland, Kofi Annan's special UN envoy, said recently that since 2004 the three unfortunately distinctive factors that have made this conflict in Darfur so remarkable in the past few years remain the same: the widespread atrocities against civilians, the cleansing of entire regions and the very difficult access for humanitarian relief.

Let me provide a few figures. Darfur has a total population of 6 million. Nearly 3 million people are affected by this conflict and nearly 2 million people have been displaced. There are 230,000 Sudanese refugees in eastern Chad—the number is between 180,000 and 300,000 people. Humanitarian aid on the ground deploys 14,000 workers. The presence of the African Union force charged with maintaining order and security counts 6,500 people. The numbers are only approximate. Although these figures speak volumes, money to feed the displaced persons and to help create other camps is horrendously lacking.

The figures I have state that between 2005 and 2006 the international community cut its commitment considerably. Members will have read, as I did in Saturday's International Herald Tribune, that the World Food Programme does not have enough money to maintain the rations at 2,000 calories a day. And there are 600,000 people the program cannot reach.

In many cases—they number some 600,000—the humanitarian workers no longer have access to certain regions. They need security. We are dealing with a conflict that is as violent as it is complex. How can I sum it up in just 10 minutes?

I will point out quickly that the backdrop is a war between northern and southern Sudan, which lasted over 40 years. When the leaders of northern and southern Sudan reached an agreement, they resolved nothing in the case of Darfur, which is in western Sudan.

At that moment, the war broke out again. The rebels in western Sudan wanted what the south had got and considered themselves entitled to, namely, participation in economic development, participation in political representation and, as people of Darfur, better access to Khartoum. This is an economic, social and political conflict. It is clear, however, that there are also ethnic elements to it.

Why? Because in order to protect itself from the rebels, the Khartoum government armed another militia called the Janjaweed. They are identified as Arabs, but in that country, Arab or non Arab makes no sense. This has developed over the years. It is largely cultural. I have tried to read all I can on the subject.

Still, the Janjaweed have burned the villages of the four or five or six different African tribes. Women and children find themselves at the side of the road with nothing. The area is scorched earth. There are no trees, nothing. Nobody runs away. Nobody hides. The earth is burned for many kilometres.

The rebels are saying that the needs of the people of Darfur have not been met. Time is passing. I mean that the 48 hours that the African Union has given the parties to reach an agreement are 48 crucial hours. That is what I know, and I know it the better for having heard it from the mouth of Javier Solana himself. Why is this crucial? Because if there is no peace, the international community—let us be clear—will be faced with a dramatic situation. If the crimes of all sorts continue, if there is no peace, the only thing that the international community can do will be to literally invade a country, Sudan, which is as large as Europe. Omar al-Bashir will never let himself be pushed around. He is afraid of meeting the same fate as Saddam Hussein or others.

Canada did well to send its UN ambassador to Abuja today. This peace must be given every chance to succeed. Does it mean that, after this peace is concluded, we will not need to send soldiers to Darfur? No. There are 10,000 UN soldiers there at the moment to maintain the agreement between north and south. Also, to ensure that it is possible for refugees to return to their villages, perhaps to rebuild, to ensure that people will be able to learn how to live together again without killing each other, an enormous peacekeeping force will be needed. However there is no question of “peacemaking”. For that, war would have to be declared on Omar al-Bashir.

We are in a situation that is serious, but interesting at the same time. This is the first time that the international community is obliged to try to enforce the responsibility to protect. The first steps in that direction are supported by the existing forces. We are trying to get the parties to make peace themselves. There is no other way. When peace comes from external violence, even if that is sometimes unavoidable, it brings its share of serious consequences which make the future extremely difficult.

I dearly hope, with all my heart and all my being, that these two days can produce a peace. Next, the resources will have to be supplied. The African Union will have to stay there. That in any case is what the United Nations is planning. On September 30, however, the African Union will be reinforced and assisted by the United Nations, which will provide a larger force to ensure that the peace is fully established and that it lasts.

We have a collective responsibility. We cannot get out of this just with resolutions denouncing this or that. These are real people, real women who are being repeatedly raped, and then bayoneted to death. Children are being tortured, and the elderly are among the victims. There is real suffering, people dying of hunger because we are not—

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9:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I am sorry, but time is up.

We will move on to questions and comments. The hon. parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Foreign affairs has the floor.

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9:10 p.m.

Calgary East Alberta

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, I would like to congratulate you on your appointment.

I listened to the member from the Bloc who is a very passionate lady and very concerned about this issue. There is no question in anybody's mind that what is happening in Darfur is a serious humanitarian crisis, whether it is called genocide or whatever name we want to call it. There is a very strong desire to act to stop the killings. People want to go in there quickly. We have heard tonight all kinds of suggestions to stop the killing now, including military intervention.

The hon. member also talked about invading the country. The invasion of that country could have serious repercussions on the whole African continent. Africans would look at it in a very different manner. That is why it is extremely important that we support the African Union although we know it needs help.

As recently as a week ago the Tanzanian minister was here and he said the African Union could do the job if it had the capability. It is asking us to do the job. Canada has committed to do that, but it is a long term process. Everyone thinks we must move into Darfur now. Everyone thinks we must send in forces now, put on sanctions, all kinds of stuff. Nobody trusts the record of the Sudanese government based upon what is going on in Darfur. It is very difficult for the government of Sudan to have any legitimacy when it actually embarks on killing its own citizens.

Canada has spearheaded the responsibility to protect. However, the international community also has a responsibility to protect people from genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This calls for enforcement action or military intervention when peaceful means have been inadequate. Right now peaceful means have not been exhausted in Darfur. We must be very careful and throw our support behind the peace talks that are going on right now in Darfur.

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9:15 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Chair, it does not happen all the time, but this time I agree with my colleague across the way. The new Government of Canada must throw its support behind the talks in Abuja. These talks have been facilitated by the international community, the United States and the European Union, which have worked together for once. The African Union, proud and cognizant of its responsibility, has become involved in the settlement process.

We must guard against taking a colonialist or neo-colonialist attitude. The African Union must be able to play the role it has taken on and obtain a settlement with the help of the other countries that are threatening sanctions, promising investment and bringing their full weight to bear on the process. I support that because everyone who wants to save these people's lives should hope for a settlement. Otherwise, the violence will continue. And when will it end? I repeat, what country will want to invade Sudan, a nation the size of Europe? Who will be the thousands of soldiers sent in to make peace?

I hope that the international community will increasingly be able to act on its commitment to protect against genocide, ethnic cleansing, war crimes and crimes against humanity. But right now, we have to face reality. If peace does not come, will we be able to end the suffering of those who are suffering? The answer is that we will not, for a very long time.

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9:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, in my riding of Burnaby—New Westminster, there is a large Sudanese community from southern Sudan. These people, and many others across the country, are paying close attention to our debate here this evening because there is no doubt that Canada has a certain responsibility in the matter. No matter how you look at it, this situation is a disaster. There have been more than 200,000 deaths, villages have been ravaged, people tortured and killed, children kidnapped. This is, without question, a humanitarian disaster.

Canada has a major leadership role to play in helping the African Union. However, as we have seen, it has reduced its aid in terms of food supplies. This is where much of the problem lies. If our government fails to show leadership and does not fund humanitarian operations and the food aid desperately needed in Darfur, we will be shirking our basic responsibilities.

Canada has a role to play. I realize that we must help the African Union because assistance is urgently needed. I would like the hon. member to comment on this matter.

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9:20 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

As I said, Mr. Chair I agree wholeheartedly. If the African Union can help resolve this conflict, we should invest money, station peacekeeping troops and enforce the arms embargo. We need these measures now. We must keep pressing for those who have committed crimes to be punished. There are dozens of measures to put in place.

We must also loosen the purse strings. I heard that a member from Quebec, who is in charge of CIDA, announced an additional $20 million. The numbers I was given yesterday mention that Canada contributed $24 million last year and $450,000 this year. We have to contribute cash; we have to dig deep for Darfur, northern Sudan and southern Sudan, because it is not over yet. We have to show that we can resolve these issues and help people find peace and security. This is a major challenge.

I would like to add that we have spoken of Darfur at far greater length than we did the Congo. There were 3 million deaths in the Congo, not 200,000. One of the positive effects of this conflict is that we are finally turning our attention to Africa. We have discussed Africa in the context of NEPAD, but this is not enough.

When I was teaching history several years ago, a famous French agrologist said that black Africa had gotten off to a bad start. And the end of its journey is no better than the beginning. But there are positive experiences and we must absolutely make massive investments so that countries can get back on their feet.

We did not talk about oil, we talked about the Chinese. Nevertheless, I recall that in this House I repeatedly asked the government in power about Talisman Energy. This Canadian company paid significant royalties to the Government of Sudan, which used them to wage war. Not in Darfur, but in southern Sudan. Fortunately, peace has been achieved since then, although the leader of the south is dead, and I hope that Sudan will be able to remain--

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9:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I am sorry once again, but your time has expired.

Resuming debate, the hon. Minister of Public Safety.

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9:20 p.m.

Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.

Conservative

Stockwell Day ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Mr. Chair, thank you for your excellent chairing of the events tonight in this incredibly important discussion and debate.

It is obvious that not only the people here on both sides of this chamber but people around the world are consumed with the frustration that surrounds this whole situation related to Sudan and Darfur. My frustration hit a peak when I was at the United Nations in a former iteration as opposition critic for foreign affairs a number of months ago. I was consumed and distressed by what was happening in Sudan and Darfur.

I had the opportunity, after a session where a number of us were presenting, to speak to the representative from Sudan, the representative from the Khartoum regime. I thought this would be a great opportunity. Obviously I knew I was not going to make a huge impact on his life with my plea for sanity and for opening things up for the African Union and other things. I was not going to insult him. I was not going to attack him. I was just going to make a plea from my heart, in a respectful way, for a consideration of sanity in terms of what was going on.

I approached him, introduced myself and simply said, “Do you have any thoughts on what we can do about the crisis?” He simply said two words that summed it up, in my view. He said, “What crisis?” He was the representative of the Khartoum regime.

So it is not difficult to tap into this vein of frustration that we feel around the world and here in Canada. I know what it is like to stand outside in the rain with students, as many of my colleagues have, as we have called out, certainly to the government of the day, but we were speaking out to anybody who was listening in terms of saying that something must be done, and to stand with people who stand far taller than I ever could in this debate, people like Justin Laku and others who continually go to that area of the world and come back with these distressing reports.

The frustration is extreme because of the déjà vu quality of what we are seeing. We are haunted by words. We are haunted by previous incidents, by our own General Dallaire in Rwanda begging the world community, saying, “Please, we have to do something or a genocide of untold proportions will unfold”. To see the United Nations paralyzed then and not able to do anything, and now to see this whole bad movie starting to circulate again, it is a tremendous, heart-rending anguish that is felt throughout the world community.

The will is there and the resources are there, but to this point, though we are recently encouraged and we hope there is going to be some substance to give us ongoing encouragement, it has been a very distressing time for the world community, although nowhere near as distressing as it has been for the four million people who have been displaced, for the families of two million who have perished in this conflict. We have no idea of what that is like.

Our nation, quite rightly, comes to a standstill when four of our young men return in coffins from a foreign field. We shudder to a stop at the thought of four lives being lost, and rightly so. It shows that we have no understanding and no concept of what happens to the soul of a country when two million have died, when four million have been displaced and they cry out to the world and all they hear are those deafening and excruciating sounds of silence. We have no idea of what that must be like.

It is important that we reflect on this. I would like to read a couple of quotations for members. One is a quotation that came in from Don Cheadle, the gentleman who played in the documentary movie Hotel Rwanda. He says, “Not since the Rwanda genocide of 1994 has the world seen such a calculated campaign of slaughter, rape, starvation and displacement as is happening right now in Darfur”.

He goes on, stating, “In Darfur, government-backed militias, known collectively as the Janjaweed, are systematically eliminating entire communities and ways of life. Villages are razed, women and girls raped and branded, men and boys murdered, and food and water supplies targeted and destroyed...Hundreds of thousands have died. Millions more are at risk”. It defies our imagination.

In terms of Canada's contribution, we have done things. Over the last few years there has been about $170 million in aid, to go to some of the most basic things such as water wells and nutrition centres. And yes, we have been there with equipment, valuable and needed equipment for observers and forces to use. On a grand scale, $170 million is still a lot of money, and on the other side of the equation in terms of what may be appear to be smaller amounts, we have done things.

I would like to acknowledge tonight two RCMP officers, RCMP Corporal Barry Meyer, from the Sunshine Coast in British Columbia. He was deployed to Sudan on April 19. He will be joined by one other RCMP member, Sergeant Richard Davis from Ottawa, who will be deployed to Sudan in mid-May. We have to imagine this. We have to picture this: a grand total of two RCMP officers going to Sudan to somehow be involved in trying to have some influence on the policing forces in that particular regime. They are two Canadians of whom we can be proud. They are going into dangerous territory.

Two people is better than none, but two thousand would be better than two. That is why we are encouraging governments everywhere to respond as best they can. It seems there is finally some agreement from the Khartoum regime that the African Union can be acknowledged to come in there with resources: yes, with support and life-giving resources, and yes, we also have to face this reality, with troops.

I want us to pause for minute here, because some of the prevailing conditions in Sudan are not totally unlike what has been happening in Afghanistan. The order of magnitude is much greater in Sudan and Darfur, let us make no mistake about that, but some of the underlying conditions are the same. It is an incredibly oppressive regime, a regime that deprives people of their rights, a regime that kills and slaughters those who stand in its way, and a regime under which a people cries out to the world, asking us to please come and help them.

As Canadians, we realize this has to be a combination of food, water, teaching and policing. How are we going to react if we are also called upon for troops? The conditions are about the same, though on a greater magnitude of scale, let us acknowledge that, as they are in Afghanistan. Are we going to be willing, should it come to that? Should things go sideways, as they can in a situation like this, will we be willing to stand with not just our troops but our RCMP officers and others as they face what will be one of the most significant challenges of the 21st century?

I believe that Canadians will rise to the occasion. I believe Canadians want us to do this. I am encouraged that our Prime Minister is greatly burdened by this, along with our Minister of Foreign Affairs and colleagues on all sides of the House. This is not a partisan issue. We must act. We cannot let this go unnoticed. I will close with a quote from Nobel peace laureate Elie Wiesel, referring to victims of the Holocaust. He said in reference to this, and some members may have heard his comments recently, “Let us remember: What hurts the victim most is not the cruelty of the oppressor but the silence of the bystander”.

Let us not be bystanders.