House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was noise.

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Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am lucky enough to ask another question of my colleague from Alfred-Pellan, who is entirely right. I would like my colleague to explain to us how the procedures work in committee. Once we have decided to send this bill to committee, the committee can make amendments and improvements, which have to come back to the House and be approved by all the political parties.

I would like him to explain to what extent Quebeckers are in good hands, since the Bloc Québécois will be able to make proposals to the committee for amendments.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Speaker, while I do not have long experience with the work of Parliament, I can nonetheless say that the Bloc Québécois makes a point of inviting comments from the people who are most directly affected by a bill and who are of the opinion that it is flawed. We therefore have the privilege, and the advantage, of hearing directly from the people we invite to our working session, who include representatives of the government and all the opposition parties, to provide us with the information we need for considering the bill. Never imagine that a bill introduced by a government is complete in itself and that all possible stakeholders have been consulted.

We will make a point of inviting the Agence métropolitaine de transport, which has told us about the difficulties it is currently having in developing its commuter train service in the greater Montreal region. Montreal is one of the important regions of Quebec when it comes to transportation. There is always talk of adding more highways and bridges in that region, despite the fact that there are rail lines lying unused because of the lack of coordination and cooperation between the railway companies. Those companies sit on their monopolies and their vested rights and refuse to give the commuter trains that could serve a larger population free rein to expand. We will have the opportunity to hear these people at the committee and they may have important things for us to add to the bill.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would also congratulate the member for Alfred-Pellan on his speech. He spoke earlier about vibrations and the obstruction of municipal access roads. I thought I understood him to say, however, that he is particularly concerned about marshalling yards and all the activity that they generate.

My colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé asked a question about the obstruction of access roads. I offer the example of my constituency, Chambly—Borduas. Trains, rail lines, go through 10 of the 12 towns that make up that constituency, and one of them, Saint-Basile-le-Grand, has two access roads. Sometimes a train stops at the municipal access roads for a long time. We had one occasion when a train stopped for an hour and a half. If there were an emergency in the municipality, or for some other reason, this would create a major problem. And yet the act already contained monitoring provisions. I would like to know whether the committee has studied this aspect.

As well, is this in fact fuelling debate in order to get the bill amended? As my colleague said earlier, this bill makes no provision in that regard.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Chambly—Borduas.

Indeed, the issue of blocked entrances and main thoroughfares in municipalities has yet to be addressed at committee. What makes the committee's work following second reading of the bill interesting is that stakeholders might be called in by the hon. member for Chambly—Borduas or members representing other ridings. This would help generate additional questions which could very well bring about changes to the bill.

I therefore encourage my hon. colleague to identify stakeholders who could meet with us to discuss this issue, even though the bill as it stands, which assigns many responsibilities to the Canada Transportation Agency, could give it the authority to hear any complaint dealing with transportation in general, which is not the case at present.

The legislation does provide, however, that a consultative body may hear all these complaints to arrange for the mediation provided for in the bill. Still, nothing prevents us from identifying the main issues in order to ensure that they will be adequately addressed in one clause or another; otherwise, amendments will be in order.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak today on the important changes to the Canada Transportation Act in Bill C-11, changes that will help improve the environment for passenger rail services, preserve valuable rail infrastructure in urban areas, and make communities served by railways more livable.

I would like to begin by speaking briefly on the history of CN Rail and the important role it has played in the lives of Canadians for nearly a century. The Canadian National Railway has mirrored the history of Canada for more than eight decades. The company's roots lie in the turmoil and disillusionment that accompanied World War I. In the 1920s and 1930s, CN's fortunes reflected the peaks and valleys of the Canadian economy. During World War II, CN, like Canadians themselves, met challenges that could not have been predicted even a few years earlier.

In the decades after the war, Canada became a supplier of resources to the world, resources such as lumber, which we dealt with earlier today, grain, sulphur, potash and petroleum products, and CN carried them. In the 1990s, when the North American economy became more integrated, CN followed suit as it expanded its U.S. presence and took a north-south orientation.

Because CN was for more than 70 years a government owned railroad, it had a social role in the life of the country as well as an economic one. This role is exemplified by narrow gauge freight and passenger services across Newfoundland, by mixed trains on low density branch lines, and by passenger cars used for schooling and medical services in remote parts of Ontario and Quebec.

There is no doubt that CN and the railways of Canada represent an integral and important part of our history as Canadians. Bill C-11 recognizes the great importance of our railways and focuses on achieving a balance between the modern interests of communities, consumers, commuters and urban transit authorities with those of today's railway carriers.

I would like to highlight the bill's proposed changes in the railway aspects of the bill. The proposed changes to the Canada Transportation Act will help ensure that our railways remain innovative, strong and healthy in the 21st century.

The bill looks at existing policy and regulations from an urban quality of life perspective to see if we can make them work better on behalf of our cities and our communities. At a time when Canadians are increasingly concerned about rising energy prices, particularly prices paid at the gasoline pumps, I am very pleased to be able to say that the proposed amendments will contribute to the well-being of urban transit services as well as intercity passenger rail services like GO Transit and VIA Rail.

Through a number of amendments to the CTA, the government is introducing several measures that will benefit the passenger rail services that are critical for the movement of the growing number of commuters in my community and throughout the GTA with and between our largest urban centres. For example, on the average workday in Burlington alone, between 70 and 80 passenger trains pass through Burlington's three GO stations and one CN station. Nearly 90% of all trains that pass through Burlington carry passengers.

The government recognizes the benefits of providing publicly funded passenger rail services such as those operated by VIA Rail across Canada, the Metro in Montreal, the O-Train here in Ottawa and the GO Train in Burlington through to Toronto and the east side of Toronto.

The government also recognizes that because these services are essentially government mandated, the operating entities may encounter difficulties in negotiating on even terms with the host railways over those infrastructures they operate. To this end, the amendments to the CTA will include new dispute resolution provisions clearly aimed at public passenger services.

Currently, the only recourse available to the CTA for public passenger providers for resolving rate and service disputes with the railways is final offer arbitration. The new provision would replace the existing final offer arbitration provision that became available to commuter and other publicly funded passenger rail operators in 1996. However, passenger rail that is not publicly funded would continue to have no recourse in the final offer arbitration system.

The new recourse will improve access to rail infrastructure for public passenger services, under commercially reasonable terms. The government strongly encourages VIA Rail and commuter rail authorities to conclude commercial agreements with infrastructure owners. However, when commercial negotiations are unsuccessful, which does happen on occasion, these public passenger service providers will be able to seek adjudication from the Canadian Transportation Agency on terms and conditions of operation on federal rail lines, including fees and services charged by that host railway.

Further, since the contracts are entered into by public bodies, in the interest of greater transparency, the amendments of the CTA will require that such agreements are made public for the first time. As such, any future contracts between public passenger service providers and federally regulated railways will be made public. Existing amendments will also be made public unless one of the parties can demonstrate, to the satisfaction of the agency, that the contract contains commercially sensitive information and that it would be harmed by its release.

The government also recognizes that preserving surplus rail corridors for subsequent use by urban transit is of growing interest in large urban centres, including my own centre of Burlington. Often these corridors represent the only land available for transportation uses.

Presently a railway can discontinue operations on a surplus rail line only after it has followed the notification and advertisement steps prescribed in the CTA. The objective of these provisions is to promote the takeover of lines of new owners or operators in place of service abandonment.

When a railway is no longer required for freight service, it must first be offered for continued railway operations, then must be offered to federal, provincial and municipal governments for a price that is no greater than the net salvage value. This approach to corridor evaluation will be retained.

However, under the current transfer and discontinuance provisions of the CTA, urban transit authorities, which in some urban areas serve several municipalities, including mine, have no right to receive such offers from railways. In the interest of protecting valuable corridors that may be required for urban transit, the CTA will be amended to require an offer of sale to urban transit authorities before municipal governments.

Also, the current provisions do not apply to railway spurs and sidings, some of which could sufficiently serve the needs of commuter rail services. Nor do the present provisions apply to passenger railway stations. The amendments would require the railways to offer these segments in urban areas and passenger railway stations to governments and urban transit authorities, not for more than the net salvage value, before removing them from service.

As I noted earlier, the CTA currently requires that no interest has been expressed in the purchase of a line for continued rail operation. A railway company must offer to transfer the line to governments for not more than its salvage value. A government interested in purchasing the line must advise the railway company in writing that it accepts the offer. If the government and the railway company cannot agree on the net salvage value of the line, either party can apply to the agency for a determination of such value. In other words, the government is required to accept and bind itself to the purchase offer without knowing the purchase price.

The proposed amendments to these provisions in the bill will improve the notification processes to governments, urban transit authorities and agencies at certain stages of transfer and discontinuance of the process. As well, the amendments will allow a government of an urban transit authority to seek a determination of the net salvage value from an agency when it receives an offer from a railway and before it binds itself to an offer of purchase. Again, this is transparency. This will provide a government and an urban transit authority the necessary information to decide whether it is the right business decision, whether they want to purchase the line or not.

This is one area that is important to me in this bill and important to my area of Burlington and Halton and of the urban transit issues that we face every day.

Another area in the bill that is very important to me, and I have been dealing with on an ongoing basis, particularly this summer, is noise, and noise is addressed for the very first time in the act.

At the outset, I noted these amendments would introduce measures that would make communities such as mine served by railways more livable.

Over the past several years, some members of the House have heard community concerns, and I have heard that from a number of speeches here today, about railway noise and the Federal Court of Appeal decision of December 2000, which ruled that the agency had no jurisdiction to entertain complaints relating to noise from the operating of federally regulated railways, and that is about to change in the act.

A large number of Canadian communities are home to railway operations and disputes can arise from railway noise between residents and communities and railway companies. While citizens adversely affected by noise from railway operations can make a formal complaint to the company through a 1-800 number, which I have received and passed out many times, or seek civil action through the courts, no federal body is mandated to regulate railway noise.

Proposed changes to the bill authorize the Canadian Transportation Agency to review noise complaints for the very first time and, if required, order railway companies to make changes to reduce reasonable noise when constructing or operating railway and railway yards. The agency must be satisfied that the parties were unable to reach a settlement voluntarily of the dispute on their own, which of course is the preference of everyone.

The Railway Association and the CPR have established voluntary mechanisms with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to address noise and other complaints stemming from the proximity to railway operations.

The government applauds and encourages this voluntary approach for resolving these often contentious matters, which I have had this summer in my riding.

However, the government also wants to ensure the agency, and I support this, has the authority to resolve noise complaints if a voluntary settlement is not achievable. The agency is well-positioned to strike a balance between operational needs of the railway, with which I think we all agree, and the expectation of communities and those who live beside the railways not to be subjected to unnecessary and unavoidable inconvenience.

The amendments would require railways not to cause unreasonable noise when constructing and operating a railway, taking into consideration the requirements of operation, services and interests of affected communities.

I want to pause for a moment and talk about a specific example in my riding. GO Transit is adding a whole new line, a new track through my riding of Burlington to Toronto, to provide us with ongoing, everyday, all-day GO Train service. As a GO Train user this summer and over a number of years my wife has used GO Train to Toronto on a daily basis when she works in downtown Toronto, it is a very important thing. The people who live in Burlington understand the need for an expanded GO Train service to Burlington, but do they need to have the railway constructed in the middle of the night with no notice? That is what has happened over the summer.

This past week I had the fortunate opportunity to meet with railway officials, their communications people, their construction people. They freely admit that there are no rules and regulations, that they are basically able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and that is the way the law is.

The new changes that we are proposing in this bill do make changes on the noise side to give us some authority to ensure that, at the bare minimum, the people who are affected on a daily basis due to the changes, the growth in railway, get an opportunity to comment on it. Whether they get to stop it is a different story, but at least they have the knowledge, they have the right to know what is happening in their backyard. I am looking forward to seeing the bill pass so we can start working on those issues.

The agency has been given the statutory power to provide guidelines for what it will consider in deciding on noise complaints, elaborate measures on the noise resolution and require complaints to demonstrate that all voluntary measures are exhausted.

We first want to ensure that the citizens and the railway contact and communicate with each other to ensure they cannot find a solution on their own. They will investigate noise complaints and order railways to take appropriate action to prevent unreasonable noise, taking into consideration the requirements of railway operation and the interests of affected communities.

The amendments I have outlined today go a long way in improving passenger rail service across the country, preserving valuable railway infrastructure in urban areas such as mine and reducing railway noise and complaints in ridings such as Burlington.

Ultimately these measures will reduce congestion in our urban areas and make our transportation system more environmentally sustainable. Not only are we adding railway lines in our area, but the tax incentive for people to get out of their cars, to use GO Transit and to take the mass transit system to Toronto has been a tremendous support to Burlington and to the people of my riding.

We want to improve the quality of life of those who have to live beside the railway lines. They understand that they are there for a reason, that they do have a good public role. However, they also need to be dealt with respectfully and in a reasonable manner. The changes to the CTA will make that happen.

I have been listening very actively today. All parties seem to indicate that they are willing to send this to committee, which is what I would like to see done, where it will be reviewed and some changes may or may not be made. It has had significant consultation. Our friends from the official opposition have said a number of times today that the bill has come to us a couple of times in different formats.

Let us get on with it. Let us get it passed. Let us get it to the transportation committee. If there are any amendments, let us hear them and deal with them appropriately. Let us start helping those people in the urban areas who are affected by transit needs on an everyday basis.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

September 19th, 2006 / 5:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to come back to a theme that I have raised now on two or possibly three occasions with the government this afternoon as we pursue the debate of Bill C-11.

The minister spoke this morning very clearly and referenced two or three times that the bill would have environmental implications. My colleague highlighted GO Transit and the notion of public transit support in his riding. We even heard that his wife takes the train, which is a good thing.

I want to raise the fact that there seems to be a disconnect here. On the one hand the government is speaking now about a new environmental platform, apparently rejecting 13 years of our work in this field. This is somewhat exaggerated. There is also a tax deductible transit pass, which does not seem to be supported by the economists.

Where does the bill in any way talk about environmental objectives, including greenhouse gases?

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, let me focus on the fact that the transit pass has been a great asset to my community. I have had numerous calls from people thanking us for that opportunity.

The reason that GO Train is adding a line to the west side is because the volume is there and it is increasing. Any additions to make it a more efficient and effective system, including the bill, will make mass transit a more appealing piece for the country.

Canada Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from June 7 consideration of the motion that Bill C-293, An Act respecting the provision of development assistance abroad, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

On June 7, 2006, during debate on Bill C-293, an act respecting the provision of development assistance abroad, which is standing in the name of the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform raised a point of order to argue that this bill requires a royal recommendation.

The parliamentary secretary began his intervention by pointing out that clause 6 of the bill would oblige the Minister of International Cooperation to establish an advisory committee for international development cooperation with remuneration and expenses for members of the committee to be set by the minister. In arguing that this provision has financial implications, the parliamentary secretary referred to the Speaker's February 8, 2005 ruling where it was stated that a similar provision in a bill was judged to require a royal recommendation.

The parliamentary secretary continued to explain that clauses 7 to 10 of the bill also described functions of this committee and obligations of the minister that entailed new expenditures. He described these functions as receiving, recording and replying to petitions, as well as preparing and submitting reports.

The Chair has reviewed this matter carefully and agrees that the establishment of the advisory committee for international development cooperation provided for in clause 6 clearly would require the expenditure of public funds in a manner and for a purpose not currently authorized. Similarly, the provisions in clauses 7 to 10, which describe the functions of the advisory committee with regard to the process of petitioning and reporting, are also functions which would require the authorization of spending for a new and distinct purpose.

As such, clause 6 and clauses 7 to 10 cause the bill as a whole in its current form to require a royal recommendation. Accordingly, I will decline to put the question on third reading of this bill unless a royal recommendation is received. Today, however, the debate is on the motion for second reading which will proceed as scheduled.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. You had indicated that unless a royal recommendation was forthcoming by the end of third reading the question would not be put. Is it also the case, maybe for the clarification of the House, that should the bill be remedied either at committee stage or at report stage with regard to the items raised that in fact it would go forward at third reading for a vote?

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

If the bill is remedied in committee to deal with the problems that were raised in the points of order and subsequently in the ruling in such a fashion that it did not require a royal recommendation, that of course would impact this ruling. As it is right now, it will not be put at third reading. These changes could happen in committee, but right now we will deal with second reading. As the bill stands now, the question will not be put at third reading.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, that was certainly one of the concerns that our parliamentary secretary brought out at first reading. We appreciate the ruling on that.

I do appreciate the opportunity to speak to Bill C-293. I also want to thank the member for Scarborough—Guildwood for introducing a bill, flawed as it may be, to create legislation for Canadian development assistance. Indeed, the bill introduces proposals that are very close to some of the issues that have been raised by the government.

Development is a moving target. Today, more than ever before, we have a better grasp of what works. As an individual country and with the international community, we have embarked on a complex journey that is leading to more effective aid, aid that can better harness the energies and talents of developing countries, and that can truly make a difference in the lives of the poor. There is a vision in Canada for aid programs.

We have a vision of donors and partners working together to achieve the reduction of poverty, of mutual accountability, of trust and respect, and of good governance which makes all of these things possible. However, visions must also be practical if they are going to work. Canadians want us to be certain that this bill in fact actually does guide us to the delivery of that vision.

We have already heard in the first hour of debate in the House on the bill that there are many members of Parliament who do not feel that the bill facilitates Canada's vision of our federal government's aid program. I would remind members of the House that the Speech from the Throne stated that the government is committed to “a more effective use of Canadian aid dollars.”

The government wants to ensure that we do the right thing with our aid money in putting this vision into practice. We will ensure that aid dollars are provided to the countries that have created a climate in which progress can be achieved. We will ensure that such progress can be achieved as efficiently as possible and that the people who most need the help will receive the assistance they need to find their way out of poverty.

I have yet to be convinced that Bill C-293 will allow us to build a dynamic and effective development assistance program, but we are keeping an open mind and we are anxious to participate in the committee that perhaps will study the bill in the event that it is passed at second reading. We want to ensure, and I know all members of the committee want to ensure, that it gets a fair hearing in committee.

The bill is very complex and seems to contain a number of mixed messages that may not bring precision to Canada's development assistance. If our assistance is going to be effective, our objectives must be simple and clearly defined. Yet, this does not appear to me to be a simple bill.

As I said, in the first hour of debate we heard comments that some are concerned about the possibility of escalating administrative costs as the result of the bill. Development assistance should reach the people for whom it is intended. We need to be careful that Canada's aid dollars, which ultimately are Canadian taxpayers' dollars, are not being tied up in lengthy process or procedures in Ottawa.

The bill's proposed petition system, reporting requirements and advisory committee would add layers of bureaucracy into an already well-developed system. They could, quite conceivably, turn current consultative processes into cumbersome Canada-focused procedures.

The system, as proposed in the bill as I read it, would risk the focus or could risk taking the focus off of the recipient country and put it back onto Canada. I would argue that the recipient nation's particular circumstances, that of poverty or need, should always be the focus in terms of what is needed.

Our new Conservative government has made the enhancement of accountability within government one of our highest priorities. We are committed to strengthening the rules and institutions that ensure transparency and accountability to Canadians.

I am concerned that the bill may bring considerable confusion to those accountability rules and institutions that we have created in government.

I hope that the foreign affairs and international development committee, the committee that will conduct the hearings on this bill if it is passed by the House, will study carefully the roles and responsibilities of the Minister of International Cooperation. In my view, the minister's extensive roles and responsibilities are worthy of great consideration. I have not seen that reflected in this bill.

The bill adds to the already considerable reporting requirements of the minister and may not help clarify in legislation what she does in practice. We do not want to simply add to her administrative responsibilities without demonstrating real value-added to Canada's aid program.

This bill would give considerable oversight to a committee of unelected individuals who would function on the basis of complaints from aggravated individuals in other countries. I am not sure of the extent that this may be really counter to the letter and the spirit of the democratic process and whether or not this comes close to making the minister responsible or accountable to an advisory committee rather than being accountable to Parliament and ultimately to Canadians.

The bill would require the minister to report on how she has implemented the guidance of this advisory committee rather than how she has implemented the guidance of the will of Parliament. I am not sure Canadians support having our cabinet ministers accountable to authorities outside of the parliamentary precinct and in reality outside of our country.

The bill would remove from Canada the authority to define development assistance and would place it within the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, the OECD, a high level, multilateral organization not based in Canada, not based in Ottawa, but based in Paris.

While Canada values highly the role of the OECD and is an active supporter of greater collaboration between OECD members, it is clear that the current formulation would result in Canada having reduced control over where it targets development assistance.

The last time I checked, Canadians want control over the taxpayer dollars we send around the world as foreign aid. Under this bill Canada's development assistance program would be subject to the rules of an unelected institution. Such a move could potentially restrict both programming and the countries to which development assistance may be given.

For accountability purposes, it is extremely important that Canada be able to choose where its development assistance can be most effectively utilized. Experience has taught us that countries that promote sound governance, democracy and human rights, are more likely to be able to make good use of Canadian aid dollars and that we can make a true difference in those countries.

Canada's aid program has had results by taking this approach. We should be careful about undermining the effectiveness of the aid program that already is working. Someone said that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would suggest that there have to be some changes. Our committee is looking at that and has looked at that. We do not want to diminish the effectiveness of our programs.

CIDA has concentrated on implementing the principles of aid effectiveness in our bilateral operations and has worked effectively with countries that are committed to improving governance and making effective use of resources. With our assistance, countries such as Tanzania and Ghana are beginning to show results. There is more to be done in these countries. There is more to be done in other countries in terms of improving and focusing Canada's aid program.

I welcome the intent and the spirit of this bill. I believe the member, as he puts this forward, will recognize the concerns we have with this bill. If it passes the vote at second reading in the House, the foreign affairs and international development committee will look forward to working on this bill.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In view of the ruling given a few moments ago by your honour concerning the need for a royal recommendation for the bill now under consideration, I want to inform the House and the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood that the government is not prepared to advise Her Excellency to issue a royal recommendation for Bill C-293. I knew the House would want to know this and this is the first opportunity I have had to so inform the House.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I thank the government House leader for clarifying that for the benefit of the House.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Laurentides—Labelle.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to take part in the debate on Bill C-293, an Act respecting the provision of development assistance abroad.

I have a deep interest in international development as the Bloc Québécois’ foreign affairs critic for Africa and Latin America.

I can assure the House that the Bloc Québécois takes very much to heart the effects of poverty and misery in the developing countries, especially the sub-Saharan countries.

We are lucky in the West to have been born in rich countries that have the resources to meet our basic needs, such as food, clothing and housing.

Quebec is often cited as a model on the international scene for its health, education and daycare systems, as well as its social safety net in general.

As we speak, a number of human tragedies are playing out in various parts of the world: armed conflicts, natural catastrophes, famines.

The Bloc Québécois has always supported increased international assistance that is fair and effective. Canada has the wherewithal to act and should do so. The Bloc supports Bill C-293 in principle. However, some aspects of it should be studied more extensively in parliamentary committee.

The bill proposes the establishment of a committee of experts in international assistance to be appointed by the minister responsible for this file.

I really wonder. Is it appropriate for members of the House of Commons to be on this committee?

Parliamentarians already have an opportunity to express their views and make their recommendations known in the House as well as in various committees.

Would it not be better for the members of this committee to be experts who are active in the field and can be found by the hundreds in different non-governmental organizations, religious organizations and the private sector that does business in these countries?

I have another question. Should the appointment of these specialists not be subsequent to a study of their candidacy by the members of Parliament and a vote in the House to approve the suggestions of the minister in charge?

If the minister has the ability to appoint the members of the committee, determine their remuneration, and dismiss them any time he likes, who in this House would really believe that these future committee members are impartial?

This is all the more true in view of the fact that some NGOs are very dependent on federal government funding for their work in the field and will feel obliged to keep quiet in order not to displease their funder.

Another question arises as well. Will the moneys allocated to the establishment of this committee be taken from the funds, already too paltry, that we have invested in international assistance?

Let us hope not, since Canada currently is not even able to meet its Millennium Goals commitment to invest 0.7% of its GDP in international assistance by 2015.

That is why this morning, my colleague from Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, the Bloc Québécois critic on international assistance, tabled a motion to force the Government of Canada to respect its commitments on this matter.

The motion states:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should improve Canada's contribution to international assistance through a commitment firstly to achieving the target of 0.7% of GDP by 2015 by increasing in a stable and predictable manner amounts for government development assistance, and, secondly by enshrining in law that the mandate and purpose of government development assistance is poverty reduction based on the principles of the United Nations Millennium Goals.

Last spring, the Auditor General of Canada criticized the way Canada spends its money on international assistance.

The purpose of Bill C-293 is to enhance transparency in the department, but nothing is proposed for improving the internal management of funding at CIDA.

Perhaps the panel of experts proposed here would not be necessary if CIDA resolved its internal management problems once and for all and if the Government of Canada finally adopted a concrete and effective plan of action for the distribution of its international assistance.

In my opinion, Bill C-293 raises another problem and that is the way it defines development assistance, limiting it to poverty reduction and sustainable development.

None of the other six targets put forward by the UN in its Millennium Goals has been emphasized in terms of Canada's action for eliminating poverty in world.

It is important to recall these goals, which are all necessary to put an end to poverty in developing countries.

First is the eradication of extreme poverty and hunger. We know that more than a billion human beings live on less than one dollar a day and that 800 million of these people do not have enough to eat and cannot function day to day. One quarter of all children under the age of five in developing countries are malnourished. This starvation has long-term consequences, making these children frail and vulnerable to sickness and disease.

Next is the achievement of universal primary education, because 115 million children of school age do not have the opportunity to attend primary school.

In addition, the promotion of gender equality in developing countries is more than necessary. Here are some examples: family violence; crimes of passion; trafficking of women; female circumcision; early and forced marriage; elimination of young girls through infanticide; violence related to dowry; acid throwing; and violence related to sexual exploitation. Such is the daily lot of millions of women in the world.

In terms of the infant mortality rate, the United Nations calculates that more than 11 million children die every year in the world. Those 11 million victims equal the entire population of Ontario.

Thirty thousand children die every day from causes directly related to poverty. The loss of those 30,000 children is the equivalent of the city of Alma disappearing on a Monday, and the city of Mirabel vanishing on Tuesday, and the population of Val-d'Or wiped out on Wednesday. In other words, there are far too many victims.

There is an enormous amount of work to be done in order to improve the health of mothers in poor countries. Mothers are generally the last line of protection for children of these countries in the face of poverty. The death of mothers during pregnancy, delivery or soon after the birth of a child leaves infants in a very fragile state in the face of extreme poverty or exploitation.

HIV-AIDS is also a fierce adversary to the advancement of women in Africa. More than 60% of the people infected are women and that has countless repercussions, in particular, reduced education of children, a decrease in per capita GDP, and more food crises, because women are at the heart of the agriculture industry in those countries.

I must also mention the struggle to eradicate such diseases as malaria, tuberculosis and HIV-AIDS, which is the main cause of early death in sub-Saharan Africa, and the fourth leading cause in the world.

As for promoting environmental sustainability, Canada is truly pathetic right now thanks to Conservative inaction. Canada's withdrawal from Kyoto reveals the Minister of the Environment's lack of awareness and vision. Two weeks ago, she decided not to act on Canada's commitment to poorer countries to help them reduce their greenhouse gases. This proves that this government does not care about our planet's and our children's future.

The last goal is to establish a global development partnership that includes all countries struggling against poverty. That way, all human beings, whether they are born in Quebec or in Rwanda, would be guaranteed the basics of life.

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate my support and my party's support for bill C-293. I hope that my colleague's motion will resonate with this government that, since it came to power, has been boasting about its transparency, accountability and integrity.

This is the same government that, as soon as it came to power, tore up the Kyoto protocol, turned its back on poor countries seeking to help stop global warming despite their many social problems, spent billions of dollars on arms, but failed to keep its word on the millennium development goals, turned its back on its commitment to correcting the fiscal imbalance with Quebec and reneged on its promise to establish a new program for older worker adjustment.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to stand in the House today and support this bill from the member for Scarborough—Guildwood. The bill is a central part of the four goals of the Make Poverty History campaign which asks us to enact legislation to make ending poverty the exclusive goal of Canadian foreign aid in a way that is consistent with our human rights obligations.

I have received correspondence and visits from hundreds of people in my riding who support this campaign. I want to make it clear that I strongly support the international campaign to make poverty history.

One of my constituents, 14-year-old Sally, has written to me several times on this campaign. She has also written to the Prime Minister and has urged the Prime Minister to show true national and international leadership on the issue of making poverty history. In her most recent e-mail to the Prime Minister, she says that all the eyes of the world are on us and that she wants Canada to show real international leadership by increasing support for HIV-AIDS prevention and treatment programs in developing countries, investing in public health care in developing countries, promoting access to affordable medicines and cancelling the debt of the poorest countries. We should heed the words of Sally and show the world that we are determined to act to end world poverty.

Members in this House should be supporting the bill, which is very similar to Bill C-293 put forward by my colleague, the member for Halifax, who is our party's international development critic.

In 1969, Prime Minister Pearson authored the report “Partners in Development”, in which he put forward the idea of the government providing 0.7% of gross national product to official development assistance, as well as 0.3% of ODA coming from the private sector. Since then, several countries have met this goal, including Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Most recently, several members of the G-8 agreed to reach that goal, the U.K., Germany, France and Italy, but sadly Canada did not make that commitment.

The history of ODA in Canada is quite sad. We have never reached our goal of 0.7%. The highest was in 1974-75 at 0.53% and peaked again in the late eighties and early nineties. During the Liberal government's term in office from 1993 to 2005 it cut official development assistance in half from 0.44% to 0.23%, which is quite shocking. Incredibly, Canada rated 14th out of the 22 OECD members in terms of official development assistance as a percentage of our gross national income.

Something else disturbing that began under the Liberals was the first move toward redefining ODA so that it would include not just humanitarian and development spending but also military assistance as well. We now see, through what is happening in Kandahar, Afghanistan, how that is pertinent today.

We must guard against changing the definition of official development assistance. Changing the definition could allow the government to artificially inflate its ODA figures by including some money spent on national defence or foreign affairs, which has nothing to do with reducing poverty, and then deem that to be part of the spending on ODA.

The government should not be able to change the goals of development assistance at a whim. The commitment to reducing poverty must be put down in legal form to bind the actions of government. The bill would guarantee that official development assistance would be focused on poverty reduction, which is a good thing. This would ensure that Canadian money was used to fight not just the effects but also the causes of extreme poverty. The bill, therefore, would give real hope to those in poverty.

It is interesting that the Conservative government is opposed to this legislation, because in February 2005 the Prime Minister endorsed the idea of this legislation in a joint letter to the former prime minister which was also signed by the leaders of the Bloc Québécois and the NDP. I will quote from this letter:

We are writing to urge you to introduce legislation which establishes poverty reduction as the aim for Canada's Official Development Assistance (ODA). A legislated mandate for Canada's ODA would ensure that aid is provided in a manner both consistent with Canada's human rights obligations and respectful of the perspectives of those living in poverty.

That letter was signed by the current Prime Minister of Canada. The Conservatives should honour the promise of their leader and they should support this legislation.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to express my full and unconditional support for Bill C-293 introduced by my colleague, the member for Scarborough—Guildwood. This bill fully addresses Canadians' concerns about the international aid Canada provides. That is why we should not only salute the initiative by the member for Scarborough—Guildwood, but also support its implementation.

Because of my various parliamentary duties, especially on the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, I have long had the opportunity to talk with Canadians about this important issue, which concerns our country's commitments and responsibilities in the world.

Whether from members of the public who take the time to express their views individually or from associations involved in international aid and businesspeople, we always hear the same message, stated loud and clear. Our resources must be allocated with greater concern for effectiveness, transparency and good democratic governance.

In practical terms, this means that the vast majority of Canadians not only feel concerned by this major issue, but also demand that our international aid really promote the values that characterize our country. We must work to ensure that Canadian aid initiatives abroad are better targeted so that our country really attacks the poverty that afflicts so many peoples that are part of the human race.

Incidentally, young people strongly support this objective, as evidenced by the large number of international solidarity organizations that are found across the country, even in schools, and that youth intuitively gravitate towards, often very early in their education.

Our youth are therefore sending a very strong message that we as parliamentarians must listen to, because they represent the future of our nation and its role in the world.

In today's world, where so much economic, technological, scientific, cultural and democratic progress has been made, it is scandalous that peoples in whole areas of our planet still suffer such extreme poverty that they do not even have the bare necessities of life.

A long time ago, our government and others, as well as multilateral organizations such as the UN and many more, declared that they would work towards reducing poverty. However, as we have seen, it is not enough to make a declaration. Concrete action is required to achieve real results. In this regard Bill C-293represents a true step forward because it unequivocally states that “all Canadian development assistance abroad is provided with a central focus on poverty reduction”. This is crystal clear.

If passed in its present form, as I dearly hope, this bill will give us a legislative tool enabling parliamentarians to better oversee Canada's efforts to reduce poverty. This bill also seeks to provide better means of assessing the true impact of our international aid, in a context where accountability for management of public resources is increasingly important in the conscience of our citizens, and will lead to greater transparency.

Transparency is required for the Canadian government to provide its citizens with a clearer account of its management of international aid. I mentioned the goal of poverty reduction. However, there are other crucial aspects of this bill which make our support all the more important. These include the requirement to respect international human rights standards. Canadians are very clear on this issue: they do not want international aid to support oppressive political regimes that do not respect human rights, the rights of workers or the duty and obligations of any democratic country with respect to its citizens.

The state must seek to improve the well-being of its citizens. It must have no other purpose. Thus, international aid must never be used to line the pockets of tyrants who are incapable or unwilling to take on such a responsibility and one that we cannot shirk. This bill also requires the government to ensure that the criteria for Canadian foreign aid include respect for the principles of sustainable development.

Concerns regarding responsible management of natural resources and environmental conservation are also an important focus of our fellow world citizens, for today and the future, as well as the responsibilities they demand of their governments in those areas.

This is actually a matter of clarity or common sense. We see it all too often these days: the planet's ecological balance is seriously threatened by the destruction of resources and pollution has crossed our borders, only to now affect us.

In that sense, we Canadians are connected to everyone else on the planet, whether we like it or not. In terms of environmental degradation, the future of our entire species is at risk.

We must therefore take action in this area, as well, or we would be reneging on our responsibilities to future generations, who are just as entitled as we are to live in a healthy ecological environment.

This is why it is so important to include this element in Bill C-293, since we can no longer avoid this aspect of international aid. The issues inherent to human development are becoming increasingly interconnected, and resolving one depends more and more on resolving the other.

In conclusion, this bill contains an essential element of our international aid that not only must become an integral part of the responsibilities of any government in the world today, but that also addresses the concerns and desires expressed by so many of our fellow citizens. Accordingly, it is the duty of this Parliament to pass this bill and we should be privileged to do so.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, I begin by congratulating my colleague, the hon. member forScarborough—Guildwood for his interest in bringing forward private member's Bill C-293, An Act respecting the provision of development assistance abroad.

The hon. member has a reputation that has put him at odds with other members of his party when it comes to children and family issues. I congratulate him for having the courage to stand up on certain issues when it has not always been popular to do with within his party.

It is a pleasure for me to participate in this evening's debate. I am on record both here and outside the House as supporting measures that assist families and children. One example is my public opposition to the clawback by the Liberal Party of Ontario of the national child benefit from some of our neediest children in Ontario.

The Renfrew County Child Poverty Action Network, CPAN, is asking for the public's help in its backpack campaign that supplies backpacks and shoes for children who may otherwise have to do without. Due to the overwhelming demand, there are so many children who are in need. In my riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, children suffer from the clawback of that benefit. As a result CPAN is asking for the public's help to assist us in filling every request. Sixteen dollars buys backpack supplies for one child, and $20 to $40 will purchase shoes. I encourage those who are able to help to do so.

I am proud to support the plan of the new Conservative government to provide parents with a $1,200 annual allowance for each child under the age of six.

The aim of the choice for child care allowance is to support the choices of all parents of young children, whether they choose to work, study or stay at home with their children, live in a small community like Eganville, a rural community like Brudenell, a small city like Pembroke, or do shift work.

I point this out in the context of the private member's bill before us today for what is being argued by other groups that deal with child poverty.

The most effective way to help parents is not through another government program that eats up more cash by administering a bureaucracy rather than what is actually provided to the recipient. The most effective way to help is to provide the cash directly to whom we want to assist.

It was never the intent of our new Conservative government to fully subsidize the cost of institution based child care. Not all parents use or choose to use such care.

Like this bill before us today, if I understand--

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Respectfully, it appears that the member is speaking to possibly another bill. The private member's bill before us has to do with CIDA, with international development assistance. If the member is in fact here to speak to that bill, I think the matter of relevance should be brought to her attention.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I thank the member for Mississauga South for that point of order. I would urge the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke to try to bridge her comments as much as possible, as quickly as possible to the main thrust of the bill before us.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is ironic that the Liberal Party takes the official position that it does not trust Canadian parents to make the right decisions for their children. The phrase “beer and popcorn” I believe was used to criticize parental choice in this country.

Clause 7 of the bill gives to aid recipients in other countries the right to petition or challenge the type of aid being delivered. Yet when our new Conservative government proposed to give the same right to Canadian parents to make child poverty history in Canada by providing a $1,200 annual allowance for children under the age of six directly to their parents to use as they deem necessary, members opposite opposed this child poverty initiative.

As a member of Parliament with many of the same concerns when it comes to family as the the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood, I welcome the interest in international development that the bill demonstrates. However, as my colleague on this side of the House has already stated, while the intent of C-293 is good, it falls short in terms of practicality.

The bill as it is drafted could hamper Canada's ability to make a positive and effective contribution to international development. I will not go into the detailed reasons why the bill is unworkable since the hon. member for Crowfoot has laid them before the House so clearly.

Canada has a long tradition of international engagement and of meaningful contribution in international development and to poverty eradication. We were at the forefront of the very first formal international development initiative in the 1950s called the Colombo plan. Hundreds of Canadian people travelled around the globe in the early 1960s to serve as volunteers to help people in developing countries. Many of those volunteers went on to become leaders in private and public sectors. In fact, they set an example that has been followed by thousands of their compatriots every since.

Right at this moment, as we debate this bill in the House, a number of our fellow citizens, some from my own riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, are working around the world in Africa, Latin America, and yes, Afghanistan, lending a helping hand and making a difference.

The Government of Canada and Canadian citizens are committed to making lives better for people around the world. We do it because we are compassionate and caring, and because it is the right thing to do. Our fellow citizens have indicated they are supportive of Canada's efforts to eradicate poverty around the world. Consistent with their compassion for the less fortunate, the new Conservative Government of Canada is committed to providing much needed assistance to the world's poor. To achieve this objective, we are committed to poverty reduction as seen most clearly in our commitment to the millennium development goals.

The millennium development goals are the global yardstick against which the world can measure progress in key areas. These goals were agreed to by every country, including Canada, in September 2000 at the United Nations millennium summit. They continue to provide a framework for the global community to work together toward a common end.

The goals, which include reducing poverty and hunger, achieving basic education for all, reducing child mortality, improving maternal health and forming global partnerships for development, represent a minimum agenda for action.

I want to assure members of the House that our new Conservative government understands the importance of international development work. The Speech from the Throne clearly stated that the Prime Minister and our government are committed to making Canadian development assistance more effective. We are reviewing our aid to strengthen its focus and to put resources where the impact will be the greatest and to show tangible results.

If the Canadian International Development Agency, CIDA, has not concentrated on implementing the principles of aid effectiveness in our bilateral operations, and this is the opinion of the member as an MP in the old regime in bringing forward this private member's bill, our new Conservative government is certainly prepared to examine this position.

Canada is working with countries that are committed to improving governance and making effective use of resources, countries such as Tanzania and Ghana. I am pleased to say that our efforts at undertaking this innovative work are showing some very positive results. In Tanzania, for example, Canada and other donors have focused on primary education, which has yielded a very impressive outcome.

Since the program began in 2002, the enrolment rate has soared from 60% to more than 90%. More than 32,000 new teachers have been recruited and nearly half of all students in primary schools are girls. In fact, now that donors are aligning and coordinating their approach to basic education, we are seeing amazing results throughout Africa. Between 2000 and 2003 the number of children out of school dropped from 44 million to 40 million. When we consider that the population rate has continued to grow, this is a substantial achievement.

Even more important, the number of girls in school continues to grow. This is a very positive thing, not only for girls but for their communities as well. When girls are able to access education, it means improved family income, better agricultural productivity, better health awareness, delayed marriage and healthier children.

I could cite many other examples, but I understand that tonight my time is limited. Nevertheless, before I conclude I think it is important to put on the record the fact that the new Conservative government is committed to international development.

Our first budget allowed us to show how serious we are about advancing Canadian values and Canadian interests on the international stage. By 2010-11 we will have doubled international assistance from 2001-02 levels. In other words, it will grow to about $3.8 billion in 2006-07 and then to approximately $4.1 billion in 2007-08.

In conclusion, I welcome and appreciate the spirit in which the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood has proposed the bill. I look forward to continuing the debate about the provision of development assistance abroad and the debate here at home on how we can make poverty history here in Canada.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to say what a pleasure it is to speak on Bill C-293. I congratulate my colleague from Scarborough—Guildwood for having the foresight to put forward this bill, a bill that over time has been supported by members from every single political party in this House, including that of the government.

Why the need? Over the last 50 years the international community has spent more than $2.3 trillion on aid. I am going to focus my comments on sub-Saharan Africa because that dark corner of the world is the only place in the world where lifespans are decreasing and poverty is increasing. In fact, 30 years ago, the average income in sub-Saharan Africa was twice that of Southeast Asia, but today it is half that. Indeed, as I said before, for many reasons it is the only place in the world where lifespans are decreasing and poverty is growing.

That is ironic given that sub-Saharan Africa possesses 40% of the world's natural resources. Why in the midst of the resource-rich countries is there this grinding poverty that is inhumane for any person? The reasons are actually quite complex, but there is much we can do. My colleague's bill would go a long way to focusing CIDA, to make it an organization focused to task and to do that which is required to alleviate this grinding poverty.

Corruption, conflict and a lack of capacitance: these three are major problems in sub-Saharan Africa. Unfortunately for too long our aid has been unfocused and scattered and too much of it has been spent here in Canada. That is why this bill put forward by my colleague from Scarborough—Guildwood, contrary to the comments made by members of the government, would actually aid the Minister of International Cooperation. It would enable her to have an accountable, focused, effective agenda so that Canadian taxpayers' money would be spent most effectively to actually make poverty history.

What can we do? As a previous speaker said, let us focus on the millennium development goals. When we Liberals were in government we focused those efforts on 24 countries. How about if we also do the following? We can focus on primary health, primary education and water and food security, along with corruption and governance issues. Those are niches where we can make a big difference and those are things that we can do on the ground.

In my experience in 23 visits to Africa and working there as a physician, it has been profoundly tragic to see what takes place. Many of these countries are actually set up to fail. In fact, the aid nexus can be seen as a big funnel, with the big circle on the top where the money goes in and the little circle down at the bottom where the people are. Money comes in that way and frameworks are built, but the frameworks are given to countries that do not have any chance whatsoever of implementing them because they do not have the capacity to do so.

What we can do is take up the Canada corps, the plan that our previous prime minister put forward, use that as a vector to be able to pool the best and brightest we have in our country and use those human resources here in Canada for work abroad. We can do it because we have an interesting demographic issue in our own country. As our population ages, we have a collection of individuals who are young retirees.

If 60 is the new 40, then we have a population of people with the resources, the capabilities, the talents and the desire to work abroad. By working abroad they will be able to fill that capacity in these developing countries through working with the local populations, not only to provide the care and the expertise but also to train the people on the ground. We can do this in our own country.

With respect to administration, I would encourage the government to look at what UNAIDS has done in terms of developing an effective administrative structure. CIDA would be wise to look at the three ones: one oversight mechanism, one framework, and one administrative body. If it does that with respect to aid and development, we will be able to have a focused, effective and administratively functional aid department and we will have aid initiatives that will make a difference on the ground.

All of us have travelled abroad, I think, and for those who have had the privilege of being in developing countries, they will have seen and they will know of the incredible courage and talent that exists in these countries. In sub-Saharan Africa, the people just want to have an opportunity. They just want to be free of somebody trying to kill them. They just want to be free of somebody trying to shoot them. They just want to be free of people who are putting the people's money into their own pockets and thereby depriving them of the basic social structures that all of us enjoy in this country. In short, they just want to have a chance. They just want an opportunity.

On the last point, the AIDS pandemic, where the government did not put forth an opportunity at the AIDS conference in Toronto, here is something we could do. What if the Prime Minister were to stand up at the United Nations this week and state that Canada was going to plant its flag on the care of the pregnant women and the care of orphans?

Through focusing on the care of pregnant women, we can use it to build the health care human resources structures, the prevention, the education and the testing. We could deal with our partners and with the ARVs, the antiretroviral medications.

If we give these medications to a pregnant woman after her first trimester, the incidence of the transference of the virus to the fetus is reduced from 40% to 1%. It is a simple, lifesaving and effective plan that will save millions of lives and reduce the sea of orphans that is happening now and will only worsen as time passes.

There are 14 million orphans in sub-Saharan Africa right now. That number will balloon to 18 million in the next five years. In the next 10 years that number will be up to 25 million, with no end in sight.

We as a country can decide this week that we are going to stand up and make the care of pregnant women and orphans our contribution to the fight against AIDS. It is simple, effective, easy to do, easy to understand and focused. We could do this in the 12 to 18 countries in sub-Saharan Africa that we have chosen to focus on. In doing so, we will start the process of enabling the international community to have an effective plan on the ground that is going to save lives and turn the tide on this pandemic that will claim up to 250 million lives in the next 30 years.

Nothing in the history of our planet has threatened our species as much as this one virus. I would implore the government, and indeed I would beg and beseech the government, to take this opportunity to do this. We have wonderful people in CIDA with extraordinary capabilities. Eighty per cent of them, tragically, sit across the river in Hull. We need to get some of them out into the trenches. We need to get them into our embassies and high commissions. We need to get them working on the ground with the countries. We need to align our efforts with the principles and ideals that the people on the ground want, consistent with that which will be effective for the poor and the poorest of the poor.

If we were to focus on the five areas that I mentioned, primary health care, primary education, water security, food security, governance, and anti-corruption activity, we would be able to make a difference. We would be able to save lives. We would be able to ensure that Canadian taxpayers' moneys are going to be spent wisely.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

York—Simcoe Ontario

Conservative

Peter Van Loan ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this private member's bill on the very important issue of development assistance.

We in this government share a view on the importance of ensuring the government does what it can to help others abroad in alleviating poverty and addressing those issues in developing countries. That is why in our budget last spring we committed to add $320 million to our international assistance funding and that was in addition to already budgeted increases over five years. This puts Canada on track to more than double international assistance from 2001-02 levels by 2010-11 at which point it will amount to over $5 billion per year. It is an important amount, particularly in light of the many competing domestic and international priorities.

However, the bill, unfortunately, although it is very well intentioned, is naive in terms of some of the unintended consequences. I read from the legislation which says, “Development assistance may be provided only if the competent minister is of the opinion that it contributes to poverty reduction”.

Canada's international development assistance has historically, even under the previous government, and I give it credit for this, gone well beyond poverty reduction into other very important areas: democracy promotion; the training of judges on how to run a proper judicial system; good governance support like that; and helping former communist countries translate their statutes into other languages so they can get accession to the European Union. These are all examples of financial support we have given to other countries and they are consistent with Canadian values. They are certainly consistent with the values of this government of promoting freedom, promoting democracy, promoting human rights and the rule of law.

To say that we are going to shut it down so we can no longer promote democracy around the world, to say that we can no longer help countries, which are struggling to develop their institutions, by supporting them in developing good civil service and good governance and by helping train promising new parliamentarians on how a democratic system works and so on, programs we have done in the past to help countries overseas make that advance, all of which we think is very important to make them good, stable parts of the world, none of that would be permitted under this legislation. That is unfortunate.

It is important for Canada to continue to play that important role. Think of all the projects around the world. In Afghanistan, which is our principal recipient of foreign aid, we are involved in things that go well beyond poverty reduction. We are training civil servants. We are helping people develop the institutions they need to run government. We are helping people with schools. Is a school part of poverty reduction or not? Is creating civil servants part of poverty reduction or not?

An argument could be made that those are not strict poverty reduction. The concern is that we will run into realm where that kind of activity to help people develop those institutions simply will not be permitted. For our government, those priorities of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law have to remain paramount.

To illustrate this, Canada has been providing development assistance in some places to help people in civil society, for example to help women become more involved in their community and to defend their rights. That is nothing to do with poverty alleviation necessarily. It has to do with fairness, equality and justice, but those are issues we should be allowed to encourage and continue to support.

Similarly, in countries which continue to have authoritarian regimes that resist democracy, should we not be able to provide support for elements of civil society whether they wish to promote the environment or other democratic development? Should we be allowed, through our development, assistance to give opportunities for people to learn, to study, to acquire education elsewhere so they become more effective when they return home to their countries?

All these are important priorities and part of the tradition of development assistance for Canada and something that we should continue to do in our tradition of promoting democracy, human rights, rule of law and freedom, great Canadian values that should not be ruled out by this well-intentioned, but poorly written legislation.

Development Assistance Accountability ActPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank all members who participated in the debate. I appreciate both those who are for and I somewhat less appreciate those who are against. So many people said so many nice things about me that I feel like I have just come from my own funeral. I hope that does not auger poorly for the bill.

This continues to be and will always be an extremely important bill in order to focus our thoughts on what ODA is all about. What is official development assistance all about? Is it about poverty alleviation or is it about a whole bunch of other things? That is what this bill is about.

I appreciate that on the other side we received what I might call spiritual support for the notion of the bill. As in life, spirit does not pay the bills. I hope that we are strong enough and that we will see through this issue, so that we put some teeth in our official development assistance. The teeth are in this bill. The practicality is in this bill. Whatever else this bill is, it is not naive.

I do not dispute with the hon. member that we do other good things. I do not dispute that for a second. Our official development assistance must be focused on poverty alleviation and only on poverty alleviation.

If in fact those are values that we all adhere to and support, fine, then we will continue to do those things, but it will not come out of this particular budget. It will only count if it is in favour of poverty alleviation. Those are the issues and that is where the debate is to be joined.

I do not see this as a naive bill, with the greatest respect to my friend opposite. I see this as a bill that asks for accountability. Presumably accountability is something that this new government thinks is an important thing. Apparently, those members thought it was an important thing when they were in opposition, as Mr. Harper, Mr. Duceppe and Mr. Layton wrote to the then Prime Minister--