Debates of Feb. 4th, 2008

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague from Vancouver East on her speech. I recognized in it the member with whom I worked on a very complex issue, namely prostitution. I would like her to say a few words about that.

In the case of prostitution, we could see how repression put the lives of these women in danger. Repression is certainly not a solution. Many women turn to prostitution because of problems related to mental health, poverty or different types of abuse.

From the moment repression is used instead of an approach targeting the causes of prostitution, people are sent to prison, they are not allowed to go to certain places and their lives are threatened. That just makes the problem worse.

I would like the member to elaborate on that because the connection with this bill seems very obvious to me.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member and I served on the subcommittee together and I think we learned a lot.

I would agree that if we use the blunt instrument of law enforcement to solve a problem, all we are really doing is further entrenching at risk individuals in a system where it is hard for them to make changes. We learned a lot in committee. We have learned a lot from programs in our community.

The approach the Conservatives have taken of getting tough on crime, of heavy-handedness, of a reliance on enforcement, rather than prevention, rather than building healthy communities, rather than making sure that people's rights are upheld, will fail, and that is what we are seeing--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today on this bill, even though the Bloc Québécois is very opposed to Bill C-25 and even stunned by its objectives.

First I would like to say that my speech will really just follow up on what the hon. member for East Vancouver had to say. I very much appreciated the specific examples she gave from her own riding and her statement that legislation ought not to be based on electoral dogma or politics but on real facts and on studies that have been done showing its necessity. We should not pass laws simply because our ideology would be better served by different legislation.

I want to say once again that this bill is based on Conservative ideology that aims to punish offenders. This is really a very reactionary ideology. Allow me to quote what the purpose of this bill is. Ultimately, its purpose is to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act by “adding deterrence and denunciation to the principles that a court must consider when determining a youth sentence”.

The bill also clarifies that the presumption against the pre-trial detention of a young person is rebuttable and specifies the circumstances in which the presumption does not apply.

The purpose of Bill C-25 is therefore to intensify the punishments inflicted on young people and allow them to be detained before trial. That is obviously where the government is headed. This bill is like a father who punishes his children rather than helping them get over difficult situations. This bill is as reactionary as can be and reflects the thinking of the Republican right-wingers among our neighbours to the south. Legislation like this is based on the belief that children are born bad and have to be punished into being good. This legislation also teaches young people denunciation—how to tell on each other—and how to but or bargain their way out of trouble.

Like most of the hon. members in this House, I have had children, although they are now grown up. I never allowed them to tell on each other because I always felt it was amoral and not something I could approve. No democratic society can accept denunciation. It can only be found in dictatorships where there is just one law for everyone. Denunciation is anti-democratic and not a way to create proud and responsible citizens.

It should also be unacceptable that young people use denunciation as a bargaining chip to obtain a pardon. There is no mention of prevention in here. In fact, this government never includes prevention in the bills it introduces. It seems to me that the normal thing to do would be to focus on prevention before punishing the offenders. But there is nothing to that effect in the legislation. We are convinced that prevention, rehabilitation, straightforwardness, honesty and integrity of young people will become essential. They cannot be allowed to be untrue and get off by denouncing others.

Where is our ability to guide our young people? They often lack the tools to cope with life. They are often unable to appreciate the gravity of their actions. That is what teenagers need help with, and this help often cannot be found at home. It is the role of government to prevent and think about those things. This kind of help is the one provided by streetworkers.

This government puts so much faith in repressive legislation that it fails to see that it is turning down very worthwhile pieces of legislation.

Here is a case in point. In a small town in my riding, an initiative was launched with just a few thousand dollars to hire a streetworker whose mandate was to talk to young people and stop them from committing crimes. That was preventative. The idea was to not just tell young people that they would face a stiff penalty if ever they got caught. Young people are convinced that they will never get caught committing a crime, be it petty or serious.

This was a well-structured initiative. The municipalities were all in favour. Potential candidates with experience had been identified for the job. The Government of Quebec had agreed to fund part of the initiative. The rest of the funding would normally have come from the federal government. About six months ago, this government categorically opposed the initiative, in spite of the fact that it was a prevention initiative, one designed to have streetworkers working with young people.

As my colleague from Chambly—Borduas said earlier, streetworkers find things to do for young people instead of being idle and always ready to get in all sorts of trouble without realizing that they could be doing something more worthwhile elsewhere.

There are enough studies, both in Europe and in Quebec, which show that it is essential to help before the kids get into trouble, in order to reduce crime. So, we must try to prevent, instead of reacting by imposing stiffer sentences. Again, I often go and talk to young people, and they are convinced that they will never get caught if they do something wrong.

Will the promise made by the Conservative government to be open toward the Quebec nation include recognizing the need to have street and youth workers? Personally, I think it is essential.

As I said earlier, the principle of denunciation is completely immoral. It is irresponsible to create an opportunity for a young person by telling him that the length of his sentence can be negotiated if he is prepared to denounce the other members of the gang. This is not the way to build an open and honest society. Denunciation is the basic principle of societies that can be said to be less developed than ours. Reintegrating society is not the important thing for young people. How do we reintegrate them? Not by imposing longer sentences, because then they will learn all about crime. No. We must reintegrate them as early as possible in a society where sentences are minimal, and where there are people who can make them realize that they did something that one does not have to do to achieve happiness in this world.

Obviously, that is not how things work in the United States. It is unfortunate that this country is our neighbour and that it is so omnipresent and in our face. The United States believes strongly in repression. With what results? Repression and even the death penalty have not stopped crime. The United States has more murders per capita than any other country, except perhaps for certain parts of Russia, where it is a game.

By transferring the burden of proof to the accused for his pre-trial release, Bill C-25 undermines the presumption of innocence, a longstanding, fundamental principle of British law.

The Bloc Québécois has a good understanding of pre-trial detention. We agree with pre-trial detention and believe that it may be necessary in certain cases and for certain individuals. However, this restrictive measure should not be considered in all circumstances. That is pretty much the thrust of Bill C-25. In the past, Quebeckers favoured individualized justice based on a legal process that was flexible and appropriate for each case.

The French criminal code we inherited allows us to think differently and to achieve positive results. It is true that everyone talks about it. Therefore, we should have a look at the results. In terms of youth justice, we have traditionally focused on rehabilitation and reintegration in order to remove these young people from the vicious circle of crime.

Do we believe that young people think about the punishment before committing a crime? No, but they might thinking about doing something else instead of committing crimes if it gave them a real zest for life.

I will close with a Chinese proverb: the little bird can be just as happy as the big bird. We must teach this to our young people.

[James Rajotte, Conservative, Edmonton—Leduc, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask my hon. colleague a question with respect to the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

Clause 1 of the bill broadens the possibility of pre-trial detention for a young person who represents a danger to the public or has previously failed to comply with conditions of release.

When we check out how this is going to adapt to the Youth Criminal Justice Act the three specific cases are remaining, but what the bill does is add three more cases with this clause. The bill states:

--a youth justice court or a justice shall presume that detention is not necessary unless

the young person is charged with a violent offence or an offence that otherwise endangered the public by creating a substantial likelihood of serious bodily harm to another person;

the young person has been found guilty of failing to comply with non-custodial sentences or conditions of release; or

--the court or justice shall not detain the young person unless the court or justice is satisfied that there is a substantial likelihood...that the young person will, if released from custody, commit a violent offence or an offence that otherwise endangers the public by creating a substantial likelihood of serious bodily harm to another person.

It seems to me these are very reasonable amendments to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I would like the member opposite to explain specifically if he has any problems with this specific clause in this particular piece of legislation.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, of course I have problems with that. The government is creating a tool for repression. Does the young person represent a danger? Did he really intend to attack people or do other things? They will detain him because that is what they are thinking.

The government wants people to see that it is getting stricter and stricter, and the stricter it is, the stricter it wants to be, which is dangerous because things can go too far. That is what has happened in every other country. When they try to make the system tougher by asking these questions, and when judges start to assess these things, their assessments become harsher and harsher.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, obviously some Canadians have suggested there should be some corrections to the youth justice act. The Conservatives seem to think there should be.

There was a report done, the Nunn Commission report, which had excellent recommendations, but the government for some reason ignored a majority of them. It has not acted on them and has not put them in this particular bill.

The member mentioned restorative justice issues that the government could be doing. In the bill it ignored recommendation Nos. 11, 20, 21, 23, 24 and 25.

I would like to ask the member why he thinks the government, when there were so many good suggestions from a comprehensive report, implemented almost none of them? Was it to try to get the Bloc on side?

I know the Bloc members do not like the bill but by putting almost nothing in it, it has not seemed to work because they all seem to still be speaking against it.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I get a very strong sense that this bill is designed to please a segment of society that thinks that repression is the only solution for our young people. However, lots of people are misinformed. They see more on television and hear more on the radio than they did a few years ago. The issue is in the public eye, and people eat it up, but they think that our society is worse than it used to be and that, therefore, there should be more repression.

That is why this government, which wants nothing more than to please the voters, is using a bill like this one to look good and get kudos for having the guts to do this kind of thing. I do not think this kind of thing will improve society. We have to be wary of vote-seeking bills, and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a quick question for my hon. colleague. First of all, I would like to congratulate him on his very progressive speech. The fact that the government is taking a very ideological approach in introducing this bill goes against the wishes of the Government of Quebec. The member did not say much about that.

So I would like to remind the House that in 2001, the Quebec National Assembly unanimously adopted the following motion:

That the National Assembly call on the Government of Canada to make provision within the criminal justice system for young persons for a special system for Quebec under the Young Offenders Act, in order to fully reflect its particular intervention model.

Could the member speak a little about this particular model?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief. I thank my colleague for his question, which I think is excellent because it has to do with not only our national government, but also our ridings.

I met with community groups about the bills our Conservative government is introducing. They were unanimous: they did not think that Quebec needed the bills, and thought that intervention would be better.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to address the House on Bill C-25, which attempts to modify the Youth Criminal Justice Act and take into account the number of provisions that deal with the importance of youth in pretrial custody and also how we can sentence young offenders and penalize them more for the crimes they have committed.

I come from a riding in the Northwest Territories in which the crime rate is very high. Social conditions have been bad in the past and continue to provide us with no end of problems in our communities. It is something each community tries to grapple with and understand.

Many of the problems arise from the transient nature of our non-aboriginal society, the cultural impact of changing societies on our aboriginal people, the harsh conditions under which we live and the failure of the education system to give adequate education to many people, not necessarily the fault of the system, but of the whole society. Many things go on in our society that lead young people in the wrong direction.

As a former mayor in a small community that was 50% aboriginal, I understand many of the issues young people are facing in growing up and making choices. It is not easy. Sometimes it comes from the lack of parental guidance available to them. Sometimes it comes from problems that are physiological in nature. Sometimes it comes from a community that does not have an answer for a young person, does not have a direction to give a young person. We all grapple with these issues and we wonder how we can best serve our young people.

Whenever we look at the legislation like this, our primary purpose is to improve the lot of young people as they move toward adulthood, accept their own decisions and comprehend and understand the nature of their acts.

Basically this is common law experience in Canada for 150 years. We accept that young people do not necessarily have all the tools required for the complex decisions they have to make in their everyday life. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they are led to mistakes. Sometimes they are ill-prepared by their parents to deal with the kinds of choices they have to make. We are all troubled about how we can deal with these things and how we can put them in context.

We think that perhaps stricter sentences will give us an answer, that somehow this will drive the boat to encourage young people to move in the right direction in their future life, that it gives them a very strong message of denunciation that their acts are inappropriate and they should be struck heavily for doing them and carrying that with them for a while, while in incarceration or other forms.

I have trouble with that. I find it does not really work all that well in our society. I find the solutions for young people are more tied to the things we do that are not tied to incarceration,or the criminal justice system. We have seen the kinds of results that can bring.

I was very encouraged. I held a public meeting in a small community by the name of Déline. I mentioned it in the House earlier today with a question to another speaker.

This aboriginal community has had a great success rate in keeping their children in line to avoid many of those pitfalls that are in our society, unlike many other communities. It has a record of five years with no young offender charges in the community. In talking to RCMP officers who supervise and work with the community, they are very pleased with what is happening. They are very pleased the community has taken hold of these young people in many ways.

I like to talk about positive things many times when I talk about young people. We need to have a positive message for young people. That to me is part of the intrinsic nature of young people. They are optimistic and looking forward. Let us give them that chance. This is what the people in Déline have done. They have a very vigorous program of interaction with their young people in their schools. The whole community of 800 people is linked back to the young people. They put the time and effort in with their young people and they get results from it.

They also have opportunities for young people to get the experience of elders. They consider this very important and I think it is very important as well. In our modern society so often we leave our young people with their peers. We are not providing them with the ongoing direction and counselling that they would get in previous generations or in a previous era when they had the opportunity to work with their parents in the fields or in the everyday tasks of a rural and simpler lifestyle.

Now children are alienated from their parents and their workplaces. They are put into a modern society that does not deliver this. In Déline they encourage those directions. They encourage the young people to participate with the people who can give them direction, who have the direction inherent in their nature. It is a very valid point.

As well, I had an opportunity to talk to a sociologist and psychologist about the nature of youth centres. He said to me that in a way, youth centres were validating what modern society was validating, that they got their direction from their peers. They go to a youth centre and interact with young people. They do not have that communication with the whole of society that gives them a better message, that more complete message about what they do with their lives or with the choices they have to make in life.

We have to be very careful with legislation that drives young people into correctional facilities, into environments where they will run into more of the peer situation. They will run into the criminal peer situation, which will increase their likelihood of repeating criminal acts in the future. Therefore, I do not find this is a very useful thing or objective in law. It may work for one or two, but what we have to look in legislation is the best possible solution for the most young people. I find it to be very limiting to think that young people are going to improve by being sent away to correctional facilities, incarcerated in a fashion that denounces their actions, that is a strict deterrence to them for that act.

I had the occasion the other day, in reviewing a parole application, to look at the record of a person in his forties who was incarcerated. I look back at this record and it is almost like a picture perfect image of what I am talking about today. A young person perhaps made a few bad errors in his early life, not serious errors, not things that any of us would be completely immune from or would make a big difference to society, but after a while they accumulated and he was incarcerated.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's comments and as critic for the north I have a few questions.

This past week has been a great week. It has basically been a condemnation of the government's crime agenda which has been a failure. Many people offered positive suggestions; almost every speaker has. It is a very positive way for the House to operate.

The member has something different to add from other members because of the northern and the aboriginal perspectives. Would he comment on the difference in dealing with crime in the north? Some of the Inuit and first nations are so far from correctional institutions that if they are sent away, how far are they from their support systems? Some of them would have never seen the type of crime they are going to hear and learn about in those institutions.

Would the member talk about the success of restorative justice programs as opposed to imprisonment and the difference of the collective society that facilitates success in restorative justice more than it might in another type of society?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, certainly, we have seen positive elements of restorative justice in our communities. The issue of the great distances between communities and the cultural alienation that individuals would have when they are incarcerated in some place that has nothing to do with their society at all, that has nothing that they can relate to as a young person, would be a serious problem. We have many people who would have that happen to them on their first trip out of their own community. That would be a very serious part of the problems that we would have with this type of activity.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, I want to give another example that is working in our community which is government funding for artists. We have a tremendous program where these people, who may have been incarcerated or youth at risk, are doing an arts program producing spectacular work. It is a positive direction and they are not in the justice system. I wonder if the member has any examples of that from his territory because of the many aboriginal people he has in his riding.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, whether it is aboriginal or non-aboriginal children, they respond to people taking an interest in their future development. Whether it is in art or music, we have had tremendous success in my community dealing with young people and encouraging them to participate. Music has given them some kind of basis to socialize and to interact. They do not have to be the world's best, but it gives them the opportunity for another way of communicating and that opens up the doors. The member is quite right. Whatever we do for young people, we have to remember that those are lessons they learn.

[James Rajotte, Conservative, Edmonton—Leduc, AB]

Mr. Speaker, listening to the speeches this afternoon I am not sure members are addressing the actual substance of the bill.

Clause 2 of the bill adds the denunciation of deterrence of unlawful conduct to the Youth Criminal Justice Act's principles of sentencing. Clause 2 of the bill, by amending subsection 38(2) of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, adds the following two principles of sentencing: first, denouncing unlawful conduct, and second, deterring the young person and other young persons from breaking the law.

Perhaps the hon. member could address the specifics of this clause and explain why the NDP is opposing this clause in this specific piece of legislation.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, we have heard many discussions about this bill. When we come to the decision about why we support that particular amendment, it fits into the global view for the direction our society should take. If the amendment tends to move us away from that global view, then we probably do not support it. That is the principle that most of us follow.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, can you please let me know when I have two minutes and one minute left for my speech? I know you are forced to cut off our speeches with the precision of a guillotine and I would not want you to have to cut me off in mid-sentence. I promise to bring it in for a slow landing, if you can please let me know how much time I have remaining in my speech.

The Bloc Québécois is disappointed that the Conservative Party brought this bill before the House. We are disappointed for several reasons. I would first like to remind the House about something that happened here not so long ago, at which time the Bloc Québécois finally managed to push hard enough to demonstrate the existence of two nations in Canada, namely, Quebeckers and Canadians. Defining a nation implies certain particularities. It is very clear that we have a different language, civil code and culture. Our difference is also expressed in the way we behave toward our young people.

Interesting initiatives begun in Quebec are often later reproduced in English Canada. Consider, for example, the whole question of child care. People in English Canada began looking at the system in Quebec, realizing that it is an entirely public system in which parents pay seven dollars a day, which frees them from having to keep their children at home. Some women did not work because they did not have the means of paying for child care. This is no longer the case, since the public sector takes care of the children.

Similarly, the way we deal with our young people in Quebec is very different from the rest of Canada. There is another good example of this in the bill before us now. How can I describe Quebeckers and the way we treat young offenders? It is not very complicated. In Quebec, we believe in rehabilitation and reintegration into society. If a 14- or 15-year-old youth is caught doing something wrong, we do not get out the billy club or taser right away and try to clap him or her behind bars; instead, we attempt to make that person realize that he or she has committed a reprehensible act against society. In Quebec we focus on integrating that person back into society. People in Quebec are very partial, therefore, to rehabilitation and reintegration.

In English Canada under the current Conservative government, there is not just a hardening of attitudes but a real shift toward an American approach, and not just any. It is a U.S. Republican approach. Quebeckers reject this. The effects are obvious. In the United States, they cannot build prisons fast enough. The incarceration rate is three or four times higher than in Quebec. The Americans have decided that anyone who commits an anti-social act should be thrown into jail and in a few years or a few months will find out what his or her fate will be.

We do not have this attitude in Quebec, especially toward our youth. Sending young people to prison is like sending them to a school for crime. Only a very small number would be saved. The prison method of dissuasion is not for young Quebeckers. I would like to point out, in all modesty, that the crime rate in Quebec has gone down by 4% over the last few years while it has risen in the rest of Canada since the Youth Criminal Justice Act was imposed in 2002. People are not on the right track in English Canada. That is why we have advanced argument after argument since this morning to convince all our colleagues of the importance of the Quebec approach.

Once again, the Quebec system can be seen working in a flexible environment versus the kind of dogmatism we face from the Conservative government. For the Conservatives, anyone who breaks the law is a criminal and should go to jail. However, this conclusion is not quite right. I just proved it by saying that the youth crime rate is lower in Quebec than elsewhere in Canada.

We believe that this bill contains all sorts of irritants, particularly the fact that the young person could be imprisoned even before being sentenced. He is imprisoned even before learning the sentence he must serve, supposedly to protect society. Therefore, the presumption of innocence disappears, which is quite astounding given that we are dealing with youth.

According to the system with which we have always lived, we are told repeatedly that we are innocent until proven guilty. Now we want to impose on these young people a very harsh measure, one that is much too harsh. What will happen? They will revolt. They will believe that their future lies in the world of crime and not in an upright, everyday society, because they are treated worse than criminals.

There is a criminal who has defrauded thousands of investors and who struts around in a three-piece suit. To my knowledge, he was not sent to prison before being sentenced. He was just sent to Quebec jail, but he was given ample time to defend himself and to appeal.

Some people may even remain free for years in their three-piece suits, like highway robbers. Yet, you would tell a young boy or girl, who has committed a reprehensible act for the first time in their lives, that they are going to prison while waiting for the verdict. In our opinion, that is completely unacceptable.

Regarding adult sentences, is it normal to impose the same sentence on a 14-year-old who has committed second-degree murder for the first time as on an adult? As I have said repeatedly, this is not the best way to get through to our young people. Young people need to understand that they have committed a reprehensible act. And applying harsh measures like the ones the Conservative Party is preparing to implement will not deter them. On the contrary, these young people will realize that society is not giving them a chance and they will opt for a life of crime.

I am therefore calling on all defenders of social conscience as well as my friends in the NDP. In fact, this morning, I was surprised to learn that the NDP was in favour of adopting this bill at second reading. I am also calling on my friends in the Liberal Party, who are supposed to be defenders of social conscience. It is time to walk the talk. If the opposition parties band together to oppose this bill, we can nip it in the bud and we will not have to discuss it any more. But some want to give the bill a chance, refer it to committee for study, then debate it in the House at third reading. I am therefore calling on everyone who has a social conscience: let us say no to this bill.

I want the government to be attentive to young people's needs. I do not want the government to come down hard on them as soon as they stray from the straight and narrow path. That is not the answer. Quebec has proven that.

I do not understand why the government is closing its eyes to Quebec's success with young offenders. We need to listen to what young people have to say and look at the facts.

Because my time is coming to an end, I will conclude by inviting all the members of this House of Commons who have a social conscience to say no to this bill. We need to follow Quebec's example. Then we will see Canada's crime rate decrease, which it is not doing at present. The crime rate is declining only in Quebec, which proves that we are on the right track.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I remember the last time we discussed this whole issue with respect to restorative justice, particularly within the context of alleged youth criminal activity. I was drawn at that time to the same points that our colleague from the Bloc has made.

The issues related to criminal and gang activity are of great concern to my community. I would like the member to elucidate a little with respect to what tools judges in Quebec have available to them when they are dealing with young people in terms of restorative justice in order to invoke the kind of positive response he indicated, with statistics showing lower criminal activity and a more positive impact in Quebec. I wonder if he could give us a brief outline of what tools judges have available to them in Quebec that may not be available in the rest of the country.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question. Basically, a judge is like a member of Parliament or any member of society holding an office. Judges grow up in their own society, their own nation. The first thing they look at is whether there is a history.

The hon. member is giving me an opportunity to ask the question again. Will there be less crime in a society or an environment where people are financially advantaged, have a higher than average education and share a collective vision? The judges have to consider that in determining a sentence.

In Quebec, in many cases, the judge determines that the child or young person comes from a very difficult background. One has to show some form of empathy or sympathy for the child to begin with. The judge infers the ability to make nuances from his or her own upbringing in a society where we want to give a chance to young people who have made a mistake, instead of beating them over the head at the first opportunity.

That is what judges in Quebec take into consideration, their thought process being conditioned by a blueprint for society, to which I referred earlier, that puts young people first and gives them a chance.

Obviously, there are individuals who may be beyond redemption. I am not suggesting that we can redeem every young person who goes through the system, but I can say that every one of them is given a chance to reintegrate society. The judges feel deeply this need to ensure justice and equity for young people.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to say that I completely agree with what the member for Saint-Jean just said. I would like to add something.

He hit the nail on the head when he spoke about repression as opposed to prevention and about completely different mentalities, and when he said that we should consider our social conscience.

So, does he not find that now there is a laissez-faire, easy-way-out mentality, as opposed to a mentality that would involve taking the time to look at what is going on with young people, to work with them, to trust them more?

Because repression is nothing more than that.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The hon. member for Saint-Jean has 30 seconds to respond.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is correct. Right now we are taking the easy way out. In fact, there will be an automatic response: if a young person does something wrong, the police will arrest him, put him in prison and the judges will hand out tough sentences.

This is not the solution, as was said. The solution is how it is done in Quebec: reintegration and prevention, a fair and just society, and capable judges, as was mentioned earlier, who exercise judgment and give these youth a second chance. That is much more effective.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

I thank the hon. member for a smooth landing.

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.