House of Commons Hansard #99 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentence.

Topics

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Unfortunately, the hon. member only has 40 seconds to answer the question.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Madam Speaker, that is an excellent question and, had a little over 10 minutes been allotted to me for my speech, I happen to have here notes regarding the banks' requirement to report improper activities. The Bloc Québécois is proposing that banks be required to report suspicious transactions, including discrepancies in trust accounts, to the financial markets authority and to the professional corporation the person involved belongs to. This approach would allow regulatory bodies to quickly identify fraudulent transactions and act before people's entire savings have been misappropriated. I therefore totally agree with my colleague from the NDP.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to add my strong support to Bill C-52, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (sentencing for fraud). This bill is a message to fraudsters in the headlines and a response to the victims who have suffered due to the greed and deceit of these fraudsters. The message is that our law will not tolerate this conduct and that serious sentences will result.

As this government has said time and again, it is time to put the concerns of victims at the forefront. While Bill C-52 may not restore their life savings and may not deter all future fraud, it does demonstrate that we mean business when we say that those guilty of fraud will be held accountable.

The troubling aspect of fraud is that any one of us could be a victim. Even though we may be careful in all our personal financial matters, today's white-collar criminals are clever and smooth, and even the most cautious investor could be caught in a fraudulent scheme. It is a shame that these fraudsters could not put their cleverness to good use to the benefit of society in such tough economic times.

Other speakers have highlighted the nature and scope of fraud today, and I am sure we can all think of other examples. We know that such schemes are not limited to organized crime.

We have heard a lot about Ponzi schemes recently, but we have also heard about the impact on victims of a wider range of other types of fraud. The impact on the victim of a $500 fraud may be just as devastating as the impact of a $1 million fraud if the victim has limited means. These reforms address the offence of fraud regardless of value, although there are mandatory minimum sentences applicable for fraud of over $1 million.

Fraud, regardless of the value, is a real and serious crime with real and serious consequences, and it is time that everyone in the criminal justice system took fraud seriously. Bill C-52 is an important step in the right direction. It will improve the Criminal Code sentencing provisions for fraud to ensure that sentences imposed on offenders adequately reflect the harm they cause.

For fraud that has a value of $1 million or more, that in the “large scale” category, a minimum sentence of two years will be imposed. I should make it clear, though, that this is only a minimum and where the fraud is larger than that, as it is so often, or if there are other aggravating factors, the sentence should be well above two years and can go as high as 14 years.

The bill is not just about the ultimate sentence for the offender. It is also about the victim's role in the sentencing process. The Criminal Code has evolved over the years to improve the experience of victims in the justice system and to provide a role, albeit limited, for victims of crime. These provisions include victim impact statements and the opportunity to present such a statement along with consideration of restitution at sentencing, testimonial aids and publication bans on the victim's identity, where needed.

Bill C-52 will further address the need to consider victims of crime when sentencing the offender for fraud. For example, the reforms will make clear that if the fraud had a particularly significant impact on the victim because of his or her financial situation, health or any other relevant factor, that should aggravate the sentence. In other words, those factors, as well as others, should move the sentence up toward the maximum. I would note that this is another aspect that will be welcomed by victims, because all victims agree that no one else should suffer as they have and that such fraud must be prevented from happening in the future.

A new prohibition order can be part of an offender's sentence. When so ordered by a judge, the offender can be prohibited from having authority over another person's money, real property or valuable securities in any employment or volunteer capacity in the future. If the offender does not respect this prohibition, he or she can be charged with a separate offence.

As mentioned, the Criminal Code already permits victim impact statements and provides for restitution to be part of the sentence in appropriate circumstances. Bill C-52 highlights the importance of both measures when it comes to fraud.

The Criminal Code currently provides that judges may consider a statement made by a victim of crime, known as a victim impact statement. Its purpose is to provide the sentencing judge with additional information, in the victim's own words, on the harm or loss suffered by the victim as a result of the offence. The statement is shared with the offender in advance, and victims may be cross-examined on the statement. Although this cross-examination rarely happens, it does ensure that the statement stays focused on the harm caused and not on recommendations about the sentence.

The statement provides judges with information on the impact or effect of the offence. For victims of fraud, the impact will be significant and can extend not only to their financial loss but to their sense of trust and overall well-being.

The bill also acknowledges that it is not just the actual victim of fraud who will suffer a loss or an impact. If the victim has been stripped of his or her savings, then they will not be buying goods and services, participating in leisure and charitable activities, pursuing their hobbies and interests or enjoying life in their communities.

The provisions in Bill C-52 recognize this and go a step further than the victim impact statements by enacting a community impact statement provision for fraud. Community impact statements are not unheard of, quite the contrary, but the code does not specifically provide that the court should consider such statements. The existing victim impact statement provisions in the code include that the court may also consider any other evidence concerning the victim for the purpose of determining the sentence.

This authority has led some courts to broadly interpret the term victim so that others impacted by the crime, including communities, have submitted statements at the time of sentence. There have been several examples in the case law of the courts' acceptance that crimes have an impact on the community as a whole.

Bill C-52 would make that recognition clearer with respect to fraud. When an offender is sentenced for fraud, the court may consider a statement made by a representative of the community describing the loss or harm to the community. The statement must be in writing, identify the community, clarify that the person can speak on behalf of the community, and be shared with the crown and the defence. So, for example, as I mentioned, where the victim cannot participate in the activities and the economy of his or her community, that community may suffer and that community may seek to submit a community impact statement.

As other speakers have noted, community impact statements are quite consistent with the purposes and principles of sentencing that are laid out in the Criminal Code, in particular, to provide reparations for the harm done to the victims or the community and to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders and acknowledgement of the harm done to victims and to their community.

I would also like to note the reforms regarding restitution.

Many speakers have noted the need for victims to actually receive restitution. No one disagrees that this should occur, but the reality is that if there is no money or not enough money to address the victim's losses, this cannot happen.

Restitution, to have any real meaning for the offender, must be paid by the offender to the victim. Where offenders can do so, they often do, so they can get a lesser sentence, but if they cannot make restitution, it is likely pointless to suggest that they do only to dash the hopes of the victims later.

We also need to keep in mind that we are reforming the criminal law and the sentences for fraud. The sentence must take into account a range of factors and restitution can be a part of that sentence, but if the restitution is not paid, the offender is still serving the other parts of his sentence and that restitution debt will remain to be paid. I should also note that the ability of an offender to pay restitution must also be considered before this is included as part of his or her criminal sentence.

As noted, restitution is the payment by the offender to the victim of a specific amount that reflects the financial losses of the victim. An order for restitution may be made as part of the overall sentence imposed on the offender as a stand-alone measure or as part of a probation order or a conditional sentence.

Of course, a conditional sentence should not be an option for fraud and it will not be an option for fraud once Bill C-42, the conditional sentence bill, is passed, because it carries a 14-year maximum penalty.

Bill C-52 would make a real difference in addressing fraud. No one disagrees that other initiatives are also needed: prevention, regulation, enforcement and prosecution.

In summary, the bill would help to improve the responsiveness of the criminal process for victims of fraud. It would require the sentencing court to consider if restitution should be ordered and it would permit the court to receive a community impact statement in cases where a community, in addition to individuals, have suffered from fraud.

I would encourage all hon. members of the House to support this bill and ensure that it becomes law as soon as possible.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Gérard Asselin Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Speaker, first of all, I listened carefully to the member's speech, and I am left with a number of questions. I am sure that the voters who listened to his speech also have many questions.

We know that the Conservative Party hoped this bill would solve the problem with white collar criminals. Members will remember Vincent Lacroix. Earl Jones is another such case. I would like to ask the member why they settled on the figure of $1 million. Is there small fraud and large fraud? Someone who cheated others out of $900,000 would not be covered by this bill, while someone who committed fraud of over $1 million would.

Vincent Lacroix and Earl Jones stole public money. They jeopardized the financial security of our seniors, of those who invested and who trusted them. Why did the Conservatives not include a provision to abolish parole after one-sixth of a sentence has been served? That would have ensured that Vincent Lacroix would serve his 14 years in prison, instead of two years. But the Conservatives did not include such a provision. They say that they want to, but they are not doing it.

The other thing is that they allowed Vincent Lacroix, and other fraudsters, to hide their money in foreign countries, with the problem of—

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

I would like to give the hon. member an opportunity to answer the question.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Madam Speaker, as the member would have heard in my speech, Bill C-42 addresses the issue of conditional sentencing, which is something that we support strongly. The government does not believe that conditional sentences should be an option for fraud.

I am not familiar with the details of the amount stolen by Mr. Lacroix, but if there were 9,000 victims, one would expect that the value of that crime probably did reach $1 million or more.

I am pleased to see that members of the Bloc are concerned about white collar crime. However, if they were really concerned about white collar crime in this country they would have supported the national securities regulator, which would strengthen the ability of securities regulators across Canada to enforce the securities laws of Canada and really get at the root cause of securities fraud.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Madam Speaker, I want to point out that Harry Markopolos discovered the whole Ponzi scheme that was perpetrated by Bernie Madoff, and he did so 10 years before the scheme was uncovered.

He went to the SEC, which is why I want to deal with the comments the government member just made regarding the National Securities Commission. He went to the SEC but the SEC is an old boys' club composed of industry insiders. In fact, I believe Bernie Madoff's son-in-law is one of the investigators.

My point is that it does not matter what sort of organization is set up, it is the people who are running the organization who need to be arm's length people, they need to be armed with police type powers and they need to have forensic accounting facilities included with them.

Just having a national securities regulator, if a bunch of industry insiders are appointed to run it, it will not get us any further down the road.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Madam Speaker, what I am simply suggesting is that our law enforcement officers need to be given an arsenal of weapons in order to go after white collar criminals who deprive people of their life savings or their retirement savings. One significant aspect of that is to have a national securities regulator who will have strong enforcement of our securities laws across the country. This has been pointed out by many experts in the field of securities law as one of the essential elements of going after these white collar criminals.

However, that is not enough, which is why this government has taken the effort to put forward Bill C-52 to significantly strengthen the penalties for white collar crime. We are sending the message that white collar crime is not acceptable in our society and people will pay a heavy price if they continue to do these things to vulnerable seniors, retirees, savers and law-abiding citizens of this country,

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

October 23rd, 2009 / 12:40 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join in the debate and indicate, as others have, our support for Bill C-52. We acknowledge that it is a step in the right direction by the fact that it sets a mandatory minimum sentence of two years for people convicted under section 380 and it takes measures to deal with widespread and rampant white collar crime in our society today.

However, like others have said in the debate, where is the rest of the strategy? Where is the meat that will really crack down on corporate and white collar crime? Why has the government been so slow to take this step? Why is it limiting its other actions on the question of a national securities regulator when what this country needs is a complete strategy dealing with white collar crime, and a corporate Canada accountability act.

That is my suggestion to the House today and it is something New Democrats have proposed in the past. I would urge the government to consider going beyond this tiny move in the right direction and consider comprehensive measures that Canadians are so desperate for.

The debate makes us all ask whether we are talking about good cops, bad cops or just no cops, which is the problem with respect to white collar crime. We know the situation is very serious. It has been estimated that Canadians lose billions of dollars annually to white collar crime. Canadians have said, time and time again to the current government and the previous government, that they want action in this regard. They have actually said, through significant polling, that white collar crime is at the top of their minds when it comes to crime in this country today. Recent polling has suggested that Canadians rank economic crime at the top of the list of other crimes. In fact, 67% of Canadians said that economic crime was their number one issue when it came to crime. That ranks just ahead of gang violence at 66%, gun crime at 54%, organized crime at 54% and terrorism at 14%. We can see very clearly that this is an issue that Canadians want government to do something about as quickly as possible.

For many Canadians, the bill today, no matter how significant a step, is really too little too late. I do not need to tell the House how many Canadians have been victims of white collar crime. We have been calling for action on this for a long time and so little has been done.

Twelve years ago, Canadians were shocked to learn the sordid details of a too good to be true deal gone bad. Hon. members will remember the Bre-X scandal. It rang the alarm bells. Thousands of investors saw millions of dollars lost overnight as a corporate hoax was revealed. Did we learn from that? No. What followed was Magnex, Livent, Corel, CINAR, Cartaway, Golden Rule, Castor Holdings, Norbourg, Portus, Nortel, Conrad Black, Bernie Madoff, and the list goes on and on.

Investigations are launched, but very seldom are people put behind bars and criminal charges upheld. This is not right, obviously, for these are not victimless crimes. It is truly an urgent issue for Canadians and it is time for the government to come forward with a complete set of strategies and policies to protect investors and employees.

Back in 2004, the Governor of the Bank of Canada used the term “wild west” to describe Canadian financial regulations. I think that was an appropriate description of what was happening all around us. He, along with many others, called for government to do something about the wild west and to put in place measures that would bring some order to the wild west and, in fact, to hire a sheriff to get the job done.

Every other country in the G8 has done something to deal with corporate crime and introduce sweeping accountability rules, every one except Canada. It is time to do something about this issue and bring in rules for investors. It is time to protect employees who blow the whistle on corporate fraud. It is time, after years of Liberal neglect and Conservative indifference, to bring in rules that will reduce corporate crime and white collar crime in Canada.

I have a few suggestions to make, and this is consistent with our previous announcement for having a corporate Canada accountability act.

The first point I want to make has to do with the regulatory field. As the member for Elmwood—Transcona mentioned in his question, I do not think it is good enough to simply call for a national securities regulator without the rest of the pieces of the puzzle in place. It ignores the fact that many provinces, in the absence of any kind of federal leadership, filled that vacuum with their own initiatives. The passport system actually took off and is now active across this country.

We do not need a national securities regulator in this country. We need a Canadian body that coordinates provincial securities regulators and brings a unified response to this whole area. A pan-Canadian approach is needed. Forget the challenges to the Supreme Court. Forget the bullying in this House. Let us start to do something about the whole package that is required and not one single issue, either in terms of a national securities regulator or, in the case of this bill, one particular move with respect to the Criminal Code.

Second, we need new accounting oversight committees and independent auditors. They should be legislated, similar to what happened in the United States and Australia as a result of the Enron scandal. Canadian executives should face new provisions for disclosure to shareholders and changes in law to ensure that independent board members are truly independent.

We also need to fight for Canadian workers and businesses. We recommend that the government bring in much more stringent whistleblower protection and apply the regulations that we now have and enhance them so that there are new rules for corporate perks.

Yesterday in the United States, we saw President Obama stand up to the automobile executives who are ripping off consumers and turning to the government for a handout, all the while flying in their private jets and flitting off to exotic summer retreats. Finally, someone in this world has stood up to that kind of ripoff and corporate crime and has said that enough is enough. That is what we need to do in this country.

Finally, as part of this overall plan, we need to ensure that Canada is no longer known as a place where people can squirm away from corporate fraud. We need to put in place the right provisions to police the financial wild west. That means an increased and independent mandate for the RCMP integrated market enforcement team, bringing in international standards in Canadian corporate accounting and law, and an examination of new laws to prevent non-compete payments.

We have been through Bre-X. We have been through Nortel. Just yesterday, people gathered on the steps of the Parliament buildings to express their deepest concerns and cries for help because their life savings have been lost as a part of the Nortel sale. That company had previously squandered public moneys and had been ordered to pay $2.7 billion back in 2006 to shareholders as a result of a lawsuit under U.S. securities law.

In the United States, there is the Sarbanes-Oxley law, which actually has the teeth to crack down on white collar crime. We in this country need something similar that approaches this issue from a comprehensive point of view. We need corporate accountability. For too long, Canadian investors and companies playing by the rules have shouldered the burden of fraud. Ordinary Canadians lose big because of corporate fraud and cooked books, and the prosperity gap only widens.

Let us begin today with a campaign for fairness in the markets and for a corporate Canada accountability act to ensure that the government and the ministers responsible admit the problems and help Parliament fix it. We cannot do nothing at this point. The government knows that it can take this kind of commitment from us to the bank.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Madam Speaker, the member summed up the problem and the solution to the problem extremely well in her presentation.

One of the areas we have to look at, particularly in this bill, is the requirement for restitution. We already know that the possibilities of restitution are rather minimal. At the time that these fraudsters are found out, it is usually after a period of time when the market drops. They are unable to pay their bills anymore and they cannot keep the scheme going. In the meantime, they have had ample opportunity to spirit the money away, particularly to tax havens such as the Cayman Islands, Panama and other places like that.

I would ask the member whether she would agree that we should be making an effort in this country to do something about these tax havens so that we can stop the fraudsters from hiding the money.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I certainly agree with my colleague, the member for Elmwood—Transcona, in his call for efforts to crack down on fraudsters who bilk Canadians of their hard-earned dollars and who make personal gain by the extensive use of tax havens.

My point throughout this whole debate has been that the government needs to do much more than this little effort under Bill C-52, however significant it is. Many of the experts in the country today wonder whether the new legislation would be more effective than the current regime.

Eric Gottardi, a Vancouver criminal lawyer who is part of the Canadian Bar Association's criminal justice section, said:

I don't think it's going to have a significant impact. It's really a codification of existing principles. The reality is, it actually doesn't change much in how the law operates right now.

The experts say that a fraud of more than $1 million already earns a criminal a two year sentence in almost every case, and the newly announced list of factors that judges need to take into account when sentencing fraudsters is already part of the process. The list includes paying attention to the financial and psychological impact of the fraud, whether the offender broke licensing rules and standards, and the complexity of the scheme involved.

Others have said that the government misses the point. "It's pathetic," said Toronto-based forensic accountant Al Rosen. "The main issue is, no one is out there to chase those people in the first place".

That is really why I say the government has to go much beyond this. It must bring in a corporate Canada accountability bill. It must move on white collar crime in all of its aspects. It must ensure that we actually stand up for Canadians who have lost so much in the past and could be victims again unless we bring a comprehensive approach to the table.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gérard Asselin Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Speaker, I think the Conservative Party has really missed the mark. If they really wanted to solve the problem with this bill, tax havens and the one-sixth practice also needed to be eliminated. Sentences handed down to these crooks would be served. For instance, Vincent Lacroix would serve 14 years. It would also prevent these crooks from stashing their spoils in tax havens, particularly in Barbados.

When Vincent Lacroix gets out of prison in two years, he will be able to retrieve his spoils, his jackpot. He will be able to live off the money he hid in tax havens.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Bloc member for his question. I completely agree.

I will do this in English because it is so complex. The Norbourg scandal that resulted in Quebec's top financial regulator laying 51 security charges against Vincent Lacroix, founder of the investment fund company that bilked over 9,000 people, is a good example of why we need so much more to be done in this field.

The people who were defrauded by Norbourg were luckier than most Canadians. At least they saw some charges laid, but the role of the regulator in this scandal is also being examined. The role of l'Autorité des marchés financiers is part of an ongoing class action suit. Investors are claiming the regulator failed to stop the fraud.

What we are saying today is that it is time for a federal government that takes seriously these issues, that works with the provinces and not against the provinces, and tries to put in place a system with teeth, with legal and judicial changes that are absolutely necessary to effect the kind of change that my colleague is asking for.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

St. Catharines Ontario

Conservative

Rick Dykstra ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration

Madam Speaker, I rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-52. It is a very important piece of legislation for my constituents as well as for all members' constituents across our country. Due to modern technology, a farmer in rural Saskatchewan is just as susceptible to fraud as a stock analyst is in Toronto. It is important that we realize this when discussing the bill.

I want to make some technical points about the bill. It contains six measures, all of which are designed in some way to enhance the sentencing process for offenders convicted of fraud.

The first element is a mandatory minimum penalty. Canadians are most concerned about large-scale frauds that wipe out people's life savings and demonstrate extreme greed and indifference to others. To address this concern, the bill includes a mandatory penalty of a minimum of two years in prison for any fraud or combined fraud with a value of over $1 million. The mandatory minimum penalty would act as a floor. A variety of aggravating factors would also be applied to raise the actual sentence well above the two-year range in many cases.

There are currently four statutory aggravating factors for fraud in section 380.1 of the Criminal Code. The bill would add new aggravating factors to that list to set out additional characteristics of fraud which are troubling. The new factors would focus on: first, the impact of the fraud on its victims; second, the complexity and magnitude of the fraud; third, the failure of the offender to comply with applicable rules and regulations; and fourth, any attempt by the offender to conceal records relevant to the fraud.

Another measure will require the sentencing court to state on the record which aggravating and mitigating factors it is applying. This is to ensure transparency in sentencing and to ensure that the statutory rules in section 380.1 which set out aggravating factors and factors that are prohibited from having a mitigating factor are effectively applied.

The bill would also give the courts a new sentencing tool for fraud offenders aimed at preventing the commission of further fraud and victimization. The court would be able to order as part of a sentence that the offender would be prohibited from having work for remuneration or in a volunteer capacity that involves having authority over another person's money, valuable securities, or real property. The order would be discretionary and available for any period up to life.

The two final measures are aimed at improving the responsiveness of the justice system and the sentencing process to the needs of the victims. Data from 2006-07 show that approximately 20% of fraud convictions resulted in a restitution order. In order to encourage a greater use of these orders, sentencing courts would be required to ask the Crown whether reasonable efforts were made to give victims a chance to indicate whether they want restitution. The courts would also be required to consider restitution in all fraud cases and to provide reasons if restitution is not ordered.

Three points of caution are needed. It is important to note that no criminal law reform can change the bottom line, namely that if an offender does not have any adequate assets, restitution itself may be a hollow remedy. It should also be kept in mind that the Crown is responsible for making the sentencing submissions. Victims will not have standing to advance their restitution requests. Finally, we cannot establish a collection mechanism for restitution ordered as a part of the sentence as this would require extensive provincial cooperation and tracking and the cost would be prohibitive.

The last measure in the bill would specifically acknowledge that the courts may consider a statement prepared by a representative of a community or definable group for consideration at sentencing for fraud cases. The courts are already somewhat receptive to considering community impact statements describing the impact of a crime on a community as a whole or in some specific cases. In fraud cases, for example, a large-scale fraud which has many identifiable victims in a small town could have an economic impact on that entire community.

I am confident that the measures in the bill will help send a strong message to the fraudsters out there that their time is finally up. I am also pleased that the bill can act as a springboard for discussion and awareness particularly toward fraud in general.

I hope that all hon. members will support the bill and help to ensure it is passed very quickly into law.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Madam Speaker, I am very fortunate and blessed to come from Mississauga, the safest city in Canada, because of the capable leadership of our mayor, Hazel McCallion, and our police chief.

I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary, why is he and his party delaying the expedition of the bill? He knows that all the opposition parties support both Bill C-52 and Bill C-42. So why not send it directly to committee? Why do we continue to debate it for two days when we are all in agreement?

Will the parliamentary secretary agree to send it directly to committee?

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's rush to get this to committee. In fact, she may have noticed that I actually did not use my full allocation of time to deliver this speech.

The reason I did that is because I want the bill to get to committee as quickly as possible. Even if the member does not need to ask any questions, it actually saves minutes off the clock, gives us the opportunity to get this to the floor for a vote, and get it to committee.

The member is absolutely right.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gérard Asselin Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Speaker, the question I wish to ask will also be very brief, because the member who just spoke is on the government side.

Why has no one questioned the minister, or at least tried to convince him, about the fact that if they really wanted to solve the problem of these crooks who steal from honest people, this bill should have included the elimination of the one-sixth practice, and prohibited the transfer of any fraudulent earnings to tax havens?

Why does this bill set the amount at $1 million? When someone steals $900,000, are they not still a crook? Is that not fraud? Is it only considered fraud if the amount is at least $1 million? There are certain things we do not understand and we would like the member from the government side to explain them to us.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, yes, I would like the opportunity to do that. I will be very quick actually and very brief.

The bill is very specific. The bill is very focused. The bill has a specific purpose. The reason to do that is so that we can, on a very regular basis, ensure that it will actually move through the House much quicker if we are specific about what we are trying to accomplish.

The member brings up the issue of the elimination of the one-sixth sentence. If that is something he would like to bring forward or that it is something he believes this government should work on, should include and should move forward, we are very open to listening to that.

However, let us get this bill through the House and then let us talk about his issue.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Speaker, I know the member for St. John's East raised this issue when he spoke in the House. He talked about Conrad Black. We know that Conrad Black is actually serving time in the United States, whereas many of the crimes were actually committed in Canada.

I would ask the member, are there any plans to put additional resources into the investigation of white collar crime? We know that many of these crimes simply do not get the attention that they need in terms of the investigation resources and the prosecution resources as well.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, my colleague makes a good point.

When we are trying to fight crime in this country and when we are trying to move legislation in this country to make our justice system that much stronger, the organizations, whether it be the RCMP or whether it be investigative units within our regional police establishments, certainly need the personnel power and the finances to very specifically do what they are required to do and what they are asked to do in terms of their investigations.

However, let us be focused here. We have a bill in front of us, a very good bill, a very specific bill, a bill that makes sense, a bill that should have support from all parties in the House. Let us get that through.

I certainly applaud the member's efforts and her comments with respect to investigations and look forward to seeing her support the funding and the legislation that we have moved in previous budgets, which did not have the member's support or her party's support, that specifically allocated money to do some of the things she is talking about.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today to Bill C-52, to impose harsher sentences for economic crimes. However, in our view, this bill does not always take the right approach.

This bill introduced on October 21 includes a minimum sentence of two years for fraud over $1 million, as has been repeatedly pointed out. It provides additional aggravating factors for sentencing such as the financial and psychological impact on victims, the failure to comply with a professional standard or a licensing requirement, and the magnitude, complexity, duration or degree of planning of the fraud. It also includes a broader definition of victim. The court could receive a written statement of the repercussions of a fraud on a given community, describing the losses suffered, for example, by a senior's club, or an entire neighbourhood or club. The bill also enables the courts to order restitution for the loss of property. If they do not, they will have to provide an explanation and justification for their decision. The bill also makes it possible for the courts to prevent fraudsters from engaging in certain activities in the future, once convicted of fraud, of course.

The Bloc Québécois wants to improve this bill in committee, as the Conservative member is asking us to do, and correct the major flaws that we see in the bill. We will therefore vote in favour of this bill at second reading. That is why, as my colleague from the Liberal Party was saying earlier, we have no objection to this bill being referred directly to committee.

In matters of justice, however, the Bloc Québécois strongly believes that the most effective approach is still prevention. We must address the causes of crime. This bill does not go far enough to address the causes of crime and we will look at that in committee and propose a few options. We believe there is a flagrant lack of monitoring over people in this field who manage to defraud others even though they are supposed to be monitored much more closely.

That being said, the Bloc Québécois recognizes that the current justice system needs improvement in many ways and that some laws need to be amended. Parliament and the government are responsible for taking action to ensure that Canadians and Quebeckers feel safe wherever they are in this country. Therefore, on June 15, 2007, which was a while ago, in response to the Conservatives' ideological approach, the Bloc Québécois recommended measures to curb economic crime. Our constructive approach is already working. In the 2008 budget, the Conservative government adopted some of the Bloc Québécois' ideas. It allocated extra resources to the national crime prevention strategy and to Crown prosecutors. As for this particular bill, even though we think the government is missing the mark in many respects, we will still support it at second reading if only to enable the committee to conduct a thorough study so that all members have the opportunity to recommend significant improvements if they want to.

Lately, there have been a lot of financial scandals around the world, in the United States, in Canada and in Quebec, such as Cinar, Norbourg and Earl Jones, and, in the United States, Madoff and Enron. These scandals have focused attention on some of the gaps in our oversight and our battle against economic crimes. That is why, on September 2, 2009, the Bloc Québécois introduced a number of measures to improve the system, making it harder for people to commit these crimes and easier to discover them and punish them more severely. Ours is the kind of comprehensive approach we need if we want to understand this kind of crime and wage an effective war against it.

In response, the government panicked. On September 16, well after our proposal was made public, it announced a bill that would include mandatory minimum jail time and aggravating factors, and enable the courts to order restitution of assets. We have Bill C-52 before us now. In many ways, the government's bill is so much smoke and mirrors. We all know that mandatory minimums are useless. The Bloc Québécois is not alone in saying that. Over and over again, people have said that the United States has the harshest sentences in the world. Their jails are full, yet the crime rate in every category is the highest in the world.

Fraud in excess of $1 million is actually a very rare occurrence. Yesterday, I heard a member of this House give a few examples of frauds in excess of $1 million, perhaps seven or eight instances, but his assertions were totally unsubstantiated. He talked about someone who had been sentenced to 24 months for stealing $1.2 million, but mentioned no name, case or references.

So far, we know of very few specific cases of individuals who have stolen $1 million and have not been sentenced to two years of imprisonment. In those instances where we are told that they did not receive a two-year sentence, most of the time, it might be because they were granted a remission of sentence after serving only one-sixth of their sentence. The fact of the matter is that the usual sentence for such offences is six or seven years of imprisonment.

This could in fact send the wrong message to the courts and result in shorter sentences being handed down. As we know, even with a reduced sentence, Mr. Lacroix was sentenced to more than two years. Had guidelines like the ones proposed been applied to him, he would have almost automatically been sentenced to two years of imprisonment. Instead, he got 14 years. The problem is that he will not be serving the full sentence. It is not that the sentence was wrong. The sentence was the right one, and he should be serving it. That is the problem.

The courts already take into account the prescribed aggravating factors. This bill provides for some, but it is already being done. What is being added here does not make much of a difference. Here is a specific example: almost all, if not all, the aggravating factors listed in the bill were mentioned in the ruling concerning Mr. Lacroix.

Restitution orders are also already in use. Their use may be broader in scope in the bill, but that does not substantially change what already exists.

As for the prohibition orders limiting the activities of convicted offenders, that is something interesting. However, many have suggested that they might be difficult to enforce. This should be looked at much more closely in committee.

What is missing from the bill is the abolition of parole after an offender has served one-sixth of his sentence. This is one of the two most important elements. Earl Jones and Vincent Lacroix will be able to use this mechanism to get out of prison before they have served an appropriate sentence, the one that was imposed on them, which in Mr. Lacroix's case was just over 14 years. With parole after one-sixth of his sentence, Mr. Lacroix will serve two years and a few months, including time already served. This is not nearly enough time for what he did. The solution in the case of Mr. Lacroix and all those who do the same thing is not to sentence them to a minimum of two years, but to require that they serve their full time, without parole after one-sixth of the sentence. The government is not doing anything about this, yet it is a key measure for dealing with this issue.

I listened earlier as a secretary of state told us that the committee would be open to any suggestions we might have. I hope it will be open to this one, because it is one of the key measures we should put in place.

Before imposing minimum sentences, which are inherently unfair, because they force the judge to impose overly harsh sentences on people who deserve less, should we not start by limiting non-judicial decisions? It is not a judge, but a parole board that decides to parole an offender who has served one-sixth of his sentence. This is therefore a non-judicial intervention in a judicial process to reduce a sentence that has already been handed down in accordance with the rules.

The bill also does not deal with tax havens. This is the second key point, and my colleague from Manicouagan was right to speak at length about it. Yesterday, I listened as hon. members spoke with trembling voices about the victims who should be compensated and supported, but the only way the government is proposing to support them is to send the people who defrauded them to jail. The government must also consider the victims and make every effort to compensate them for the losses they have suffered. The way to do that is to ensure that the people who defrauded them can repay the money they stole by preventing them from hiding that money in tax havens. These are the two main elements the Bloc Québécois will raise in committee in order to improve this flawed bill.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Madam Speaker, the previous speaker, the parliamentary secretary, was asked by a member of the Bloc to explain why this bill specifies $1 million.

Given that a fraud is a fraud is a fraud, whether it is $100,000 or half a million dollars or $1 million, why would the government arbitrarily pick $1 million? The parliamentary secretary did not even make an attempt to answer the question.

Yesterday this question was brought up a couple of times with no satisfactory answers from the government. In fact one of the questioners yesterday was one of the government backbenchers. One of the government backbenchers asked the government speaker to explain the $1 million provision in the bill, and he could not do it.

Perhaps we are going to have to wait until the bill gets to committee to get these answers. I think that is a valid question. It has been asked many times and there has been no answer. I am sure there are people in the back rooms listening to what we are saying here. One would think they would be able to get some answers down to some of their speakers on this particular question.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, my NDP colleague has raised an issue that has been brought up a number of times in the House, and for which there is never a solution. It is a question that has never gotten a response. I do not know the answer to this question, except that the government chose a figure that would be high enough to have an impact on the public, without really having a reason for it.

I remind my colleague that the government is currently trying to impose a minimum sentence for fraud over $1 million, and in doing so, would direct judges and give them a specific obligation. It would take power away from the judges, whom the Prime Minister referred to—I am sure my colleague remembers—as left-wing ideologues.

Perhaps this is an attempt to take power away from the judges by requiring them to do things that they might already be doing in a better way. Mr. Lacroix was given 14 years instead of two mandatory years. The problem is not with the sentence he received. The problem is that the system allows Mr. Lacroix to serve only one-sixth of his sentence. That is the fundamental problem that needs to be fixed.

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Speaker, I know the member talked about prevention in his speech.

There was a report from 2007-08 by the Correctional Investigator. He cited the fact that 45% of the women who are in maximum security federal penitentiaries are aboriginal.

I wonder if the member could talk about what he would like to see, not only on white-collar crime but more broadly in terms of tackling crime, and in terms of more preventive measures?

Retribution on Behalf of Victims of White Collar Crime ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, I think we already have institutions in place governing the matter before us today, namely, Bill C-52, but perhaps they are not being properly enforced, that is, they have not been given enough teeth.

I cannot believe that Mr. Lacroix did everything he did with anyone keeping a close eye on him. I think that someone, somewhere, was not watching him closely enough. Although it happened in Quebec, it is all the same. Mr. Lacroix was not watched closely enough, otherwise, he would not have been able to do what he did. It is appalling to think that our current institutions do not have enough teeth, nor the regulations, financial resources and other means needed to ensure that things are done properly and to prevent crimes before they are committed.