Debates of Dec. 10th, 2013

Situation in Ukraine

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Chair, before I make remarks and comments to my colleague from Parkdale—High Park, I would like to say that the Government of Canada's aspiration, desire and goal for the people of Ukraine is the same as for everywhere else in the world. We want to see peace, prosperity, and most importantly, freedom. These are incredibly important values, Canadian values, that we want to promote around the world.

I just want to make a brief intervention on behalf of the government and on behalf of myself about the Ukraine. They are facing some real and significant challenges.

I listened with great respect to my friend from Parkdale—High Park, the member opposite, to her advice and her intervention. I want to say this. She is a true friend of the people of Ukraine. She should talk more to her friend, my friend, her foreign affairs critic, the member for Ottawa Centre.

I should say we all seek a peaceful resolution to the current conflict. We want to see the government dial down its rhetoric. We want to see an engagement with the opposition. If we could encourage anything to happen, it would be for the government to engage the opposition to look at the current conflict, to dial back its rhetoric and to look at its association with the European Union. That is exactly what I did on my recent visit to Ukraine.

I would be remiss if I did not say at the outset that I appreciate the strong commitment and leadership of the member for Parkdale—High Park on these issues. I am sure she will use this in her election pamphlets. I do appreciate it. She is a strong advocate for the people of Ukraine, and I want to thank her for her very thoughtful speech.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague opposite, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I think the Christmas spirit is breaking out in the House of Commons.

In all seriousness, it is indicative of the seriousness of this place and the seriousness of the issue that all parties have come together to have what is not really a debate but a discussion about this serious issue.

I thank the minister for his kind words. Again, I thank him for being in Ukraine, for being in the Maidan square. I have been there myself. I know how electric that can be when people come out in the streets and how passionately people want this change. People want to know that their country is truly evolving, that they are no longer living under a dictatorship.

The Berlin Wall has fallen. We are in a post-dictatorship era, yet some of the vestiges of dictatorship remain. I believe that is what is happening here. I join with all my colleagues in supporting the minister's comments, that what we really want to do is to encourage the government. We do not want to isolate them. We want to encourage them to reach out to engage with the opposition, and to find a way forward so that the democratic will of the people is represented and the democratic aspirations of this country can be fully recognized.

I think there is good will around the world for this to happen. We can reach out to the government of Ukraine and urge it to pull back from its suppression of demonstrators, and reach out to them instead to engage in dialogue.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Mr. Chair, again I note the sense of unanimity in the House tonight, among all members on all sides, with respect to the situation in Ukraine, and the deep concern we all feel with news reports tonight that riot police have taken some action in the Maidan and that water cannon may have been used and other forms of suppression. Some of the tents apparently have been torn down. At the moment, the situation may not have turned a corner to severe violence, but the risk is certainly there and that troubles us all deeply.

I think we all agree with the point that the member for Parkdale—High Park has made, and the minister referred to this, about finding the means to seek engagement and encourage dialogue and get the government and the opposition in Ukraine talking to each other in civil terms toward constructive solutions. One of the big problems seems to be getting President Yanukovych's attention. He seems to be prepared to act with impunity, perhaps because he believes there will be no consequences for him.

I wonder if the hon. member for Parkdale—High Park could share some of her thoughts about how to get Yanukovych's attention. Other than rhetorically criticizing his behaviour, how, in a tangible way, can we bring this man to understand that the world is watching, the world is deeply concerned, and that there will be consequences for behaviour that violates civil rights, democracy and the rule of law?

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think one of the things we need to do is exactly what we are doing tonight, which is to show that the Parliament of Canada is seized with the situation in Ukraine.

I want to thank my colleague the official opposition Foreign Affairs critic, the member for Ottawa Centre, for his efforts on this, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs and those who are speaking here tonight.

President Yanukovych has said he is considering going to Brussels, and I think we should bring to bear international pressure on him should he choose to make that visit. We need to keep that international pressure on to show that the world is watching. That is not to alienate him, but to pressure him to engage so we can find a resolve here. It is not to shut the door on his presidency, and not to have him shut the door on the west. I think that would be a big mistake.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank my colleague for being a stalwart defender of the rights of those in Ukraine. I know she has taken that position for quite some time.

I think we need to remind ourselves that in making the statements that we are tonight in support of the people of Ukraine who are fighting against severe suppression right now, that they democratically chose a constitution which has extended to them the human rights and freedoms that we enjoy in Canada. We are not speaking about rights that they should have if they had a democratically selected government; they actually have adopted this constitution, which so far has not been shredded.

I had the honour of going to Ukraine twice last year, once to monitor the elections in the fall, with many colleagues on the other side as well, and with the Foreign Affairs committee, looking at the erosion of the rule of law and democracy.

One of the things that we discovered was that many people are being imprisoned for speaking out politically. I am wondering if my colleague could speak to the fact that this might be something that Canada could offer, to ensure there is legal representation for those who are being inappropriately arrested and jailed.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, my colleague is absolutely right. Ukraine does have a constitution. It does provide protection against human rights abuses, and I think that is an excellent idea. Canada engages with Ukraine on so many levels, whether it is with business, with education, with civil society. Given our history around human rights protection, and, again, the 65th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps there is a way for us to reach out and provide some legislative support to help ensure its constitution is enforced, given what seems to be a situation of massive human rights abuses. I thank her for that suggestion.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, it is a great pleasure for me to take part in this debate.

I have had an opportunity with some of my colleagues here to attend Ukraine's elections, on two occasions. I have had the opportunity to see the desire that the people have for democracy and the rule of law. Certainly it has been a struggle, and I appreciate that there are many aspects to it and that it is more complex than we can sometimes see. However, overall, the desire is to go forward. There have been obstacles along the way in many situations, but the desire is always for this to go forward.

The situation, of course, has deteriorated over the last little while. It is understandable that many Ukrainian people are disappointed with the negative direction the government took most recently when it turned its back on signing the EU-Ukrainian association agreement.

I think the Ukrainian Canadian Congress stated it quite well when they said that this “puts a stop to reform and the path of European integration and the modernization of the Ukrainian economy to put in line with the international standards. It further impedes the path to democracy and protection of human rights”. There is no question about that, and I think that is sort of the central core of the upset by the people.

The Ukrainian Canadian Congress also expressed disappointment, as it has become clear that Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko arrived in Vilnius without any intention to reach an agreement. They say this is extremely disappointing and counter to the formal position taken by the government of Ukraine, the Parliament of Ukraine and the expressed will of the Ukrainian people, who have taken to the streets across Ukraine to peacefully demonstrate their opposition. They know instinctively that the president was heading in a direction that was taking Ukraine further away from the free and democratic nation that they desire and expect for Ukraine, a nation governed by justice and the rule of law.

Many see this direction as a regressive step at a pivotal time in the nation's history. As one young demonstrator stated, “I don't want to go back to what my parents lived under the Soviet Union. When I am old, I want to live like people in Europe. I want to live in a normal country”.

The pressures on the president to align with Russia may well have been great, especially given the fact that Ukraine's economy has been in recession for more than a year and the government is in desperate need of funding to avoid default. No doubt, Moscow has worked aggressively to derail the agreement with the EU. However, this must be resisted at all costs by the people of Ukraine and must be taken into account by western democracies and other countries in the world to work with Ukraine to help it see its way through this current financial crisis.

Most Ukrainians would agree that a signed agreement would provide a baseline for Ukraine's reforms, with guidelines for Ukraine's development by changes in Ukraine's legal system, a stop of the misuse of courts for persecuting political opposition leaders, and observing at least some elementary and rudimentary rules of law and basic democratic standards. An independent and impartial judiciary is the essence of a democratic society governed by the rule of law. Justice must not only be done, but it must also be seen to be done.

Fundamentally, I found it remarkable that one of the most likely contenders in the political elections was charged and convicted prior to the elections on what would appear to be politically motivated actions, and here I am speaking of Yulia Tymoshenko, former prime minister. It is remarkable that political losers end up in prison.

As many have stated, this is symbolic of Ukraine's clinging to the Soviet past. Anyone looking at the situation objectively would find it remarkable to see political opposition members tried, sentenced and jailed to remove them from political contests. Another arrest relating to Yuri Lutsenko, Ukraine's former interior minister, also raised the same concerns.

I would say this is a pivotal time in Ukraine's history and choices must be made. The people have made that choice by taking part in the demonstrations in the streets throughout Ukraine.

Many in Canada have supported that action, through demonstrations taking place in Montreal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Regina and other places. However, it was those who gathered in Kiev's Independence Square who ended up being targeted by government forces. They were there simply and peaceably expressing their desire to integrate into the European Union.

Many see the suspension of continued discussion as a signal that the current leadership is veering away from the ideals, goals and aspirations of most Ukrainians, particularly the youth. It is no wonder, then, that we have seen many people out on the streets demonstrating.

During the three weeks of protests against Yanukovych's decision to align with Russia, police violently dispersed demonstrators twice, and went even further by storming the office of the top opposition party, breaking glass and reportedly smashing doors. This kind of action is simply unacceptable. It is intolerable. It must cease and desist. It is unacceptable to have peaceful demonstrators seriously injured. That is just a fact.

The Ukrainian Canadian Congress was deeply disappointed, and denounced the government's decision to stop the process of preparing for the conclusion of the association agreement between Ukraine and the EU and to resume an act of dialogue with the Russian Federation and other countries of the customs union. It said that this unilateral decision by the Government of Ukraine does not further the cause of the Ukrainian people.

When I was there, I saw how the electoral system works, some of the changes that had been made and the actions of President Yanukovych's government. What option do the Ukrainian people have but to protest? The human spirit at some point is prepared to resist wrong simply because it is wrong, no matter what the cost. We have seen good upstanding people, who otherwise might not have been involved and who are not be easily moved, who are prepared to take that stand at some point. That point is here now.

The action that the authorities should take in response to this is to change their direction, to take popular discontent into account, and to take reasonable steps to ensure that peaceful gatherings are not broken up and that the participants are not injured or incarcerated.

It was interesting, and to some measure good, to see a news release where President Viktor Yanukovych promised that some demonstrators arrested in the massive protest sweeping the capital would be released. In that news release, he vowed to renew talks with the European Union, talking to others within the country on concluding a much awaited trade and political agreement. He also said that he was still up to signing the deal at a summit in spring, but only if the EU could offer better financial terms.

This is talk, and perhaps rhetoric, that needs to be backed up by action. However, it is the kind of dialogue that needs to take place. It is the kind of response that needs to happen. Many times when we reach a crossroads or a certain turning point, the end result is uncertain. It is important during those times to be watchful and helpful to a situation that could possibly resolve itself.

To the participants of the demonstrations, it is a time to be encouraged as each of them takes their stand. They are certainly beacons of light during a dark moment in Ukraine's history. In making their point, they are making their mark, and they are being noticed here in Canada and in other parts of the world. They are on the side of right, and history will show it to be so. Although they do not know the full impact of what they are doing now, know that their actions, words and stand have already changed the situation so that it may never be the same again.

I would say “Take courage. Do not despair. Continue to stand and continue to speak true words that will echo truth into the generations to come”. It is through actions like the ones they have taken that change and results will come.

We can only hope in the House that the end result will be better for it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to read into the record, in a question to my colleague, something we just received about what is happening right now in Ukraine, in Kiev. This is a letter from the president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. It states:

Dear Members of Canada's Parliament:

As President of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, I address you with complete shock and outrage that as you all express support for the people of Ukraine during the take note debate in the House of Commons, Ukraine's “Berkut” special police forces are attacking the peaceful protesters on Kyiv's Independence Square and taking down the Maidan by force. I am watching several live online feeds as the people in the crowd and on stage are praying and calling on the police to show restraint and to stand on the protester's side. Despite these calls the police continue to clear the Square. I ask you all to pray for the peaceful protesters. We as Canadians cannot stand idle. Immediate action is required by the international community. Thank you for standing with the people of Ukraine!

I think that is shared with all of us.

I said “now” because when we debate these issues, often it is about things that have happened. This is happening in real time, right now.

When we hear of something like this and we know that there is an abuse of power, we know, as my colleague said earlier, there is a constitution that protects the rights of people for peaceful protest. Then when all of a sudden there is a conversion by the president saying that he now wants to go Brussels, what more should we do? We should obviously condemn, but what else can we do to show that we are with the people of Ukraine and that we will not stand idly by?

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, as I said previously, we need more than just words on the part of the government and the president: we need some action, and not of the type that we are seeing today.

Freedom of association, freedom of speech and the freedom to make a point or express one's point by demonstrating, as these demonstrators have peaceably done, are fundamental rights and values that any democracy would cherish. They go to the root of what a democracy is. It is unfortunate to see those kinds of actions. As members of Parliament, we would call on those in authority to cease and desist that kind of action. It is absolutely unacceptable.

The president and the government have a responsibility there. It is fine to say they will release some of the protesters, but this kind of action is intolerable. It cannot happen, and as the member has said, we have to condemn that type of action. We also have to ask the government and those in authority to intervene to make sure this form of expression is not thwarted.

I know that from government to government there are various kinds of actions that can be taken to show how seriously this situation is viewed, but when we are in the midst of history taking place, in the midst of actions by both sides, it is important to be constructive, to try to move the moment forward, and to condemn those things that need to be condemned while yet keeping the lines of communication open.

I think there will be a back-and-forth as we go forward, but it would be my desire that ultimately the president and those in authority would do the right thing and call their people off.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Mr. Chair, the message that we have all just received from Paul Grod, president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, which was just read into the record by the member for Ottawa Centre, certainly drives home the crucial nature of the situation in Kiev and across Ukraine tonight. It drives home further the point that having a debate on this subject is necessary, but translating our sentiments into concrete action is even more necessary.

I wonder again whether Canada would be prepared to take a diplomatic initiative with other countries around the world. I am thinking of several in Europe and of the United States. These countries could develop a set of specific sanctions aimed not at Ukraine as a country and not at the Ukrainian people, but at Yanukovych and his government, his henchmen, and the oligarchs who support him. The sanctions would curtail their ability to use their assets, curtail their ability to travel and enjoy the fruits of their behaviour, and say very clearly on behalf of the world that what is happening in the Maidan tonight is not acceptable. The trampling on human rights and freedoms is not acceptable, and there will be consequences for doing so.

Canada could not take that initiative on its own, but we could in concert with other countries. We could lead the effort to bring other countries together to focus attention on this issue and to make it clear to those who are perpetrating this violence that the world is watching this behaviour very closely and that the world deplores it.

I wonder if the government is prepared to at least consider that kind of initiative to help to translate our sentiments into concrete action.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, there is no question that there are all types of potential consequences to this type of action. Other countries, including Canada, could deal with ensuring President Yanukovych and those in authority would understand how seriously this is viewed.

Obviously I would not be one to suggest or indicate in any way what the foreign minister may do, but I can say that through its foreign minister, Canada has certainly spoken very clearly on this issue. He has not only spoken but has also travelled to Ukraine and has indicated what Canada's views are on this particular point. I am sure that if there was consensus among a number of democratic nations and they were to take some very specific action to reinforce that point, then something could always be considered.

Obviously it is a delicate and complex situation, so it would take the utmost consideration to decide on appropriate steps and measures at this time.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Chair, one of the questions when it comes to concrete actions that we could take is how we can do things that do not hurt the people of Ukraine. There are various forms of sanctions. For example, in the days of apartheid, one particular sanction that the international community took was a sports sanction. In a sports-crazed country like South Africa, it really compelled people to demand change from their government. That is one of the things we could certainly investigate with our international partners.

The other big question is the extent to which we stay engaged with Ukraine. Canada has a lot of investments in Ukraine's development. Ukraine is a country of focus when it comes to international capability building.

I am wondering if my colleague could talk about the importance of staying engaged with Ukraine, despite our disagreement with the current administration.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, it is always important to be engaged, I think. We cannot have one particular incident or situation overbalance what we might do in the big picture.

I know Canada has involved itself financially through a number of programs related to improving the justice system through education and through providing resources to the judicial system and the judges who are involved. Canada is helping along in a number of areas that the Ukraine would need.

That said, there may be specific types of actions that are narrow in scope and that do not harm the people who have a desire to see the Ukraine go forward. Such actions could make a point succinctly while at the same time using all the channels available to exert pressure, not only from within this country but also through a consortium of countries, to make the point that it is important for forward progress to be made.

The financial circumstances of Ukraine and some of the counterbalancing issues draw them either to the Russian side or to the European Union. It is important that all nations look at that and be very constructive and instrumental in ensuring that there is value, not only for the people of Ukraine but for those in authority, to go in the direction that their people would like them to go.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, it is my honour to join my colleagues on both sides of the House in this take note debate. It is an important debate, as all of my colleagues in the House tonight have stated.

As we stand here speaking and declaring our support for the people of Ukraine, they are being violently arrested and thrown in jail for simply expressing their free opinion, an opinion they have fought long and hard for.

It is my privilege to represent a good number of Ukrainian Canadians not only in my constituency of Edmonton—Strathcona but right across Alberta. As all my colleagues know, many of the members of the provincial legislature, including former premiers, are of Ukrainian descent.

There is a long-standing, deep-seeded respect and admiration for the people of the Ukraine and those who have escaped very difficult circumstances to re-establish themselves in Canada. Therefore, there is this long-standing support for their friends and family who were left behind and a continued support for Ukraine to become an open and free democratic nation.

Last year I had the privilege of taking two trips to Ukraine. The first was with the foreign affairs committee. With the national election coming forward, we went to Ukraine to look into complaints of erosion of the rule of law and democracy. We found very serious evidence of erosion in both circumstances. There was no longer freedom of the press. Those who were free journalists were now reduced to simply online reporting, if they were reporting. There was absolutely none of the traditional free media and press. If there was free press, the citizens were so poor that they could not afford it and could only rely on the government-controlled media.

We met with representatives of human rights organizations and civil society, some of whom were simply fighting to get access to the records of the Holodomor, which were being locked away from them, fighting simply to recognize their history of a thousand years of struggle to be a free and independent nation and to ensure the youth of Ukraine understood the repression they had previously existed under so they would understand why it was so critical to fight for a free and democratic government.

As my colleagues have mentioned, I also had the great privilege of having youthful interns in my office. Each one of them have been astounded at the freedom we experience on this Hill. They could not believe that as elected representatives we did not have bodyguards. They could not believe that as simple student interns they could wander about freely and talk to elected representatives, staff and officials in the House of Commons. That is a real wake-up call to us because we take our freedoms for granted, until we run into people who do not experience that at home, irrespective of what their constitution extends to them.

Tonight I want to give credit to my incredible legislative assistant. She has spent a lot of time in Ukraine in successive elections as a long-time monitor. I could not find a more stalwart defender of the rights of Ukrainians. I want to give her the courtesy of respect she deserves for speaking up daily for the people of Ukraine.

I know my Ukrainian Canadian constituents and those across Alberta are tuning in and watching this right now. They value the fact that we are taking the time, even though the House has shut down for the season, to stand in defence of their friends and relatives in Ukraine and the rights that we share here. I have been reminded that there is a time difference as we speak, but today representatives of both sides of the House attended the funeral for Nelson Mandela, who was the global champion for human rights and freedoms.

Today is the 65th anniversary of the international human rights declaration. As we speak here today, the people of Ukraine are being attacked with bludgeons simply because they are standing up and defending their free right to trade and associate with people of other countries with which they would prefer to associate.

I want to share the words of the Ukrainian World Congress, which has reminded us of the words of Mr. Mandela, which are appropriate today.

Mr. Mandela stated, “For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others”. That is a good message to us. It is fine that we are free, but we have a responsibility to also speak for others who are still struggling out of those chains.

In a statement issued on December 10, the Ukrainian World Congress stated:

On this day, when we annually vow to reaffirm the dignity and protect the human rights of all citizens, the Ukrainian World Congress appeals to the international community to support the people of Ukraine in their fight for the freedom to chart their course without fear of reprisals or persecution—the foundation of a democratic society...

I do not think the point could have been made any more strongly.

My staff member is very academic and learned and has read deeply on Ukraine. In fact, my most recent Ukrainian intern left me, as a gift, a thick tome on the history of Ukraine and I just did not have time tonight to completely go through it. However, I am reminded that this wonderful nation has struggled for over 1,000 years.

The people of Ukraine have come out of repression after repression, first under Russia and then other nations, then under the Soviet Union. They certainly suffered under Stalin. I had the privilege of participating this year in two Holodomor memorials, one here on the Hill and one in Edmonton. It is a great privilege to be asked to participate.

The Ukrainians are a people who are desperately seeking support to become a democratic nation and at every turn they think they are finally going to be free. In 1990, Ukraine's sovereignty was proclaimed. Then they signed onto their constitution, which guarantees them human rights and dignity, the same kind of human rights that we appreciate in Canada. Then 93% of Ukrainian citizens voted for an independent Ukraine and chose their first democratically elected president.

However, then in 2004 when there was evidence of electoral fraud, they took to the streets in their own Orange Revolution. In our party we have had our orange revolution. They had theirs and so we are brethren in loving the colour orange, as my colleague here wears proudly the scarf from the Ukrainian Orange Revolution. Still they suffer and they struggle.

When I participated in the monitoring of the election last fall, I was stunned at the turnout. I asked to be in the city of Lviv, because it is such an extraordinarily beautiful old city on the western edge of Ukraine. We went to many places, including a prison and a mental hospital and they were lining up to vote. Then we went out to the suburbs and there were families coming with their baby carriages and they were bringing seniors in wheelchairs. They wanted to participate in a democratic nation. Then of course there were problems again, and we have run-up elections going on as we speak. One has to question how fair these elections will be, given what is happening on the streets of Ukraine. Still, I presume they will come out.

Now we have a president who has espoused that he wishes to enter into friendship with Canada and with our friends and colleagues in the European community and at the last minute pulls out of those negotiations under pressure, we understand, from Russia. Deservedly and understandably, the people of Ukraine, who wish to align with the European community and consider themselves Europeans, have taken to the streets.

What is the response by the government of Ukraine? It responds with bludgeons, arresting people, beating up people, throwing them in jail. We know from our experience in Ukraine. We met with the lawyers and family for at least three of the opposition members who are still jailed. They simply do not have fair representation. They are just simply held and detained. There still is no democracy.

It is important for us to recognize that we continue to try to work with Ukraine, that we continue to try to provide aid building civil society, but we need to recognize that moments like this occur and that we are simply not giving enough support. There is cause. Our House is closing for the season and it is incumbent upon the government because it continues to be the voice for Canadians. We will stand with the government and hope that it will take stronger action.

In closing, I want to share some of the words from the youth of Edmonton. The Ukrainian youth have been taking to the streets as well and Ukrainian students are studying in Edmonton.

They tell the House that 300,000 of the Ukrainian community in Alberta are united with the millions of Ukrainians in the diaspora. They want to ensure the safety of their peaceful demonstrations in Kiev and they are vigilantly preserved until they themselves choose to disperse.

They urge the Government of Canada, all western governments and western media to understand what they are seeing and hearing and to understand much of the street fighting is purposefully instigated by provocateurs.

Clearly they are in touch with their friends and family in Kiev and this is what they are reporting. They are calling for peaceful, safe resolve of the issues. They are calling on Canada to speak to the United States and have the President of the United States also speak out.

Perhaps in questions I can also share the words of some of the other Edmontonians who wish to share with the House their feelings on what is going on.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, it is critical that all of us are here tonight, in real time, discussing the problems facing Ukraine. These are problems that have accumulated to where we have these protests taking place. They have accumulated to a situation where the government has decided to use military and police force to clear the streets, to clear Independence Square, to clear everyone out there trying to make their point that the current situation is not acceptable to them and it is not acceptable to us around the world.

I am glad the member for was so respectful in her comments, while taking a fairly strong stance as to what are the next stages of moving forward. I would like her to go on in more detail as to what we need to do as Canada and as individual Canadians who are interested in what is happening in Ukraine and what we expect to see from the government of Ukraine.

What we have experienced so far is an unwillingness to listen to the people, a complete disrespect for democratic processes within Ukraine. President Yanukovych has an opportunity here to right the ship, re-engage the west, re-engage Europe and really meet the needs and aspirations of the citizens of Ukraine. I ask my colleague to talk to those points.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity to share more of the words of the people from Ukraine and in Canada. It is always a privilege to work with him. It has been in the past and I hope in the future.

I would like to share some of the appeals of civil society representatives of Ukraine. They issued a release December 10. The civil society represents economists, lawyers, educators, business experts, a wide array of representatives from the people of Ukraine. They are calling on us to condemn the use of excessive force by the special forces of the ministry of internal affairs. They are calling on the government of Ukraine to not simply turn to politicians to resolve this impasse, but to directly engage the active participation of civil society, which is what we have heard. That is where we can help. We can help by standing by civil society.

If the government does not have this release, I would be happy to share it. The representatives list a good numbers of actions that they are calling on us to support them in the action with Ukraine. They want the government to sign the association agreement with the European Union. They want to develop the basic principles under the constitution, which enable the consensus and engagement of civil society. They want the adoption of electoral code. That sounds familiar. They want the re-election of the chairman of the supreme court, high specialized court and on it goes. They have some very specific actions that they want in order to actually make an effective democracy.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, I do not think we can emphasize the urgency of the matter at hand.

We have the BBC, for example, just 15 minutes ago reporting on how thousands of police officers are now going into Kiev, into the square, against the protestors. Canada can and should play somewhat of a role in terms of demonstrating leadership in terms of bringing other nations together to try to put pressure on restraint, to challenge the Ukrainian president to pull back and allow protestors the opportunity to express themselves.

What we are seeing taking place, as we speak here in the House, is not acceptable behaviour for a country that wants to have rule of law, democracy and to be positive on human rights.

Does the member believe that the Government of Canada should become more aggressive in terms of working with other world leaders, other nations, to try to put more pressure on those in power in Ukraine to try to ensure that the people of Ukraine are in fact not going to be taken advantage of while having peaceful protests? They are fighting today for their freedoms, but it seems that the local police forces want to step on those freedoms.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I want to share the words of Bohdan Harasymiw, who is a retired professor at the University of Calgary, a very proud Ukrainian Canadian, very engaged in the diaspora in Canada.

He has very clear words. He says:

These demonstrations are therefore about more than the postponement of the association...with the European Union. An entire generation has grown up in an independent Ukraine, a generation with European aspirations, with European ideals of democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. It cannot be suppressed.

I think that is echoed in the recommendations by the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. Many of my colleagues have reiterated what they have called for. I think there is an agenda fairly clearly laid out that we as Canadian legislators can follow.

The most important thing for us to keep front of mind is that these demonstrations and this violent response by the government of Ukraine is not the first time. There is a history of violent repression against the Ukrainian people. I think that calls for deeper action, deeper thought, deeper collaboration within Parliament on both sides. I am proud to participate in the Canada-Ukraine friendship organization. We regularly talk about these issues and what we can do to build association.

The most powerful thing we can do as Canadians is to provide more financial assistance so that more of civil society can come to Canada, and our civil society, including municipal officials, student organizations, educators and so forth, can go into Ukraine, and back and forth.

We have to make sure that we are providing legal representation. Right now we have politicians jailed in the Ukraine, and now we are simply adding more people who are peacefully demonstrating to those jail cells. We have to help them to be released in a judicial system that is not fair, open and according to the rule of law.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, in Kiev, riot squads pushed back protestors who were blocking access to government offices. The more than one million Canadians of Ukrainian descent think this crisis situation is completely unacceptable.

Could the member tell us a bit more about Canada's historic and current relationship with Ukraine?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, as I understand, I think there are 300,000 Ukrainian Canadians living in Alberta. I have the privilege each Christmas of spending Christmas Eve with some of those Ukrainian Canadians and enjoying those heritage dishes. It is a great joy to share that experience.

Ukrainian Canadians are like all other Canadians. They are participating in business. They are educators. They are small business people. They are serving in government. As I mentioned, the previous premier of Alberta was of Ukrainian Canadian descent.

I think the most important thing we can do is to not simply leave it to Ukrainian Canadians to have to fight this battle. It is important that all of us who are Canadians stand up. I think it is very important that all Canadians out there who may be watching and observing this debate write to the Prime Minister and write to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and say, “We support the actions you are taking, please take even stronger actions. Do not forget about Ukrainians over Christmas.”

We have to stand stalwart from here on in and make sure that those people are protected, that they have proper representation and that they are released from jail, so they too can have a joyous Christmas.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, indeed, it is an honour and a privilege to be in this chamber where we have freedom of speech, where we can speak out on numerous issues and know that there are no repercussions for what we say, where we have a true opportunity to air our grievances.

It is fitting that, tonight, we are having a debate about the situation in Ukraine. To all our Ukrainian friends who are watching us tonight, I say, dobry vechir.

While we are here discussing the current crisis in Kiev, Lviv and other communities across Ukraine, we know that Canadians are watching. My email account today has been inundated with Canadian Ukrainians and with civil society organizations feeding me their statements, their concerns, their press releases and background briefing notes on the situation in Ukraine. The media in Canada is watching this story closely. At the same time, many of my friends in Ukraine have also been contacting me, ensuring that I see the live feeds coming in from Independence Square in Kiev on what is happening in the Maidan and wanting to ensure that Canada is fully aware of the strong hand of government, of the police brutality that is taking place at this moment in Ukraine.

I know that the Ukrainian government is watching, following this debate to see what Canadian politicians are saying, monitoring what is happening in our media, what is happening through organizations such as Canadian Friends of Ukraine, the League of Canadian Ukrainians, and of course, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. We just read into the record a letter that was sent from our friend, Paul Grod.

As someone who is proud of my Ukrainian heritage, I have been active in carrying many different issues forward on behalf of Ukrainian Canadians here in the House of Commons, which includes my private member's bill on the Holodomor, which includes numerous election monitoring trips to the Ukraine, which included being in the Ukraine with the Prime Minister when he was the first prime minister and the first world leader to ever say, in Ukraine, that the Holodomor was a genocide. It was something that I was incredibly proud to see happen and something that the current leadership cannot even say within Ukraine itself.

When I first got elected 10 years ago, we witnessed the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. There was so much hope brought with that. They overturned a debunked election. The person they had thrown out is now the president, Viktor Yanukovych. Their hopes rode on Viktor Yushchenko and they made him president. They thought he would bring about change. It never materialized, unfortunately.

Then we have seen the selective justice process where former political leaders are imprisoned. People are frustrated with that. It is not that they are saying that everything that Yulia Tymoshenko did was right, but they are saying that she never got a fair trial.

It just raises the question of whether or not there is true judicial independence within the Ukraine.

One of the reasons that so many of us in the House, in this chamber, have been to the Ukraine on multiple occasions is to watch elections, to observe how they are carried out, to communicate with people in an electoral system about reform. What we continue to see is gerrymandering, to the benefit of the current party in power.

All of us are concerned about the quashing of civil liberties, freedom of speech, freedom of press, judicial independence, respect for the rule of law. We have had numerous complaints coming from the academics that their courses, their teachings are continually monitored and interfered with by the department of education in the Ukraine.

We have to move the yardstick and that is not happening. We have been reaching out to Ukraine. Ukraine has tried to become more integrated in the world economy. It joined the World Trade Organization. One of the first things it did, although it was legal, was to apply tariffs to over 370 commodities, products and services across this country. We are trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with Ukraine, and that is not negotiating in good faith, in my opinion.

We know that did not sit well and stuck in the craw of the European Union, which was in the process of closing a deal with Ukraine that was to be signed off on at the end of November in Vilnius, Lithuania, so that there would be a true economic co-operative agreement, free trade and more integration within the European Union for the Ukrainian people. President Yanukovych walking away from that deal has created this huge public outcry.

What we have witnessed over the last 10 years, from election interference and no respect for the rule of law to continued Soviet-style governance systems, has now accumulated with what we see happening with the Euromaidan. We have to continue to engage Ukraine. We cannot allow this to continue to happen. At the same time, we have to see some good faith from Ukraine and we have not seen any good faith in a long time. The closest thing we have seen was when it released Yuriy Lutsenko, who was one of the political leaders and lawyer for Yulia Tymoshenko. That is the only step of good faith that we have seen from this administration.

When I did my last election monitoring in Ukraine for the parliamentary elections last year, I was part of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE, parliamentary delegation. There were a number of us who were part of that parliamentary delegation. We were on the ground doing election monitoring. I definitely saw improvements in the way the elections were being carried out, but starting this weekend there are a number of by-elections in Ukraine because so many results were thrown out for interference, fraud and other corruption charges on a number of different oblasts.

They are redoing those elections and there will again be another Canadian delegation going there, run by CANADEM. They will again be monitoring the situation, but it is going to be under a much more difficult scenario because of the peaceful protests that are taking place. Unfortunately, those protesters are being shoved aside, their tent city ripped down, and Maidan being destroyed.

Just last week, the OSCE had a meeting. Its 20th ministerial council was held in Kiev and our Minister of Foreign Affairs, who has had such a strong, principled stand on how we engage with Ukraine, was there. I was very proud when I saw him and Paul Grod, who is the president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, walking through Independence Square with the Canadian maple leaf strapped on their backs, showing the people of Ukraine that Canada stands in solidarity with them, that we will stay engaged and we will make sure that their aspirations will be realized.

I want to make sure we look at what the purpose of the OSCE is. This is an organization that we want Ukraine to use as its basis for moving forward, from a security standpoint, from an economic co-operation standpoint and a democracy standpoint. The OSCE Secretary General Lamberto Zannier, on the eve of ministerial council in Kiev last week, said:

Peaceful dialogue is at the core of the OSCE’s work and finding common ground through political means is our raison d’être....

Respect of fundamental rights, such as freedom of assembly, the right to free expression and giving journalists the liberty to do their work is essential to ensuring cohesive and secure societies.

All we want is for the current administration in Ukraine to allow society in Ukraine to mature, to be free, to be democratic and respect the rule of law.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member, who obviously has a deep commitment to Ukraine and to his Ukrainian Canadian community in Manitoba.

Many tonight have spoken about the briefing note provided by the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. There is high regard for that organization in this country in advising all sides of the House on appropriate actions.

Recommendation 6 says:

In concert with U.S. and European authorities, play a leadership role in the G8, the G20, the International Monetary Fund and other international fora to explore all the ways in which the international community can combat money laundering in and through Ukraine. Explore with its international partners the means by which the international travel and illicit “business” activities of corrupt business people, government officials and their families could be restricted in accordance with applicable Canadian law.

When we had our foreign affairs delegation to Ukraine, we had a table of business people meet with us who operate the chambers of commerce for Ukraine, Europe and so forth, and Canadian businessmen in Ukraine. They identified the deep concerns that one has to have deep pockets to invest in Ukraine. We are calling for support and continued investment, and perhaps human rights through trade, but there are deep problems.

I wonder if the hon. member could speak to the recommendation by the UCC and whether we ought to be taking a more strategic approach to our trade relations with Ukraine? Should we try to direct more action on freedom and democracy?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Chair, I would say that the Government of Canada has taken every opportunity to register its deep and ongoing concerns regarding the devaluation of democracy within Ukraine.

In November, just last month, we expressed our deep disappointment over Ukraine's decision to suspend its negotiations. We all expected Ukraine to sign the European Union agreement for increased democracy, co-operation and economic prosperity. That was a missed opportunity. That is why we see the protests on the street.

I appreciate all of the comments and ideas that have come forward from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, and there are two issues that it has laid out. One of them is an issue that all of us can rally behind, to call upon Ukraine's president to respect the freedom of its citizens to peacefully assemble, and to call upon Ukrainian authorities to respect this right and apply restraint in their interactions with these peaceful protestors. We are not seeing that.

As we are sitting here right now, Maidan is being taken down and destroyed. That is not being done in a peaceful manner.

We need to continue to look at all avenues. We need to look at the G8 and G20. The European Union has been the strongest leader on this front. I appreciate all of the work it has done in its ongoing negotiations on what were its hopes for a successful conclusion to the current round of discussions on Ukraine's greater co-operation and economic trade with the European Union.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, as I indicated earlier when we speak on this very important issue, we know that Independence Square is being covered by literally thousands of police officers. There is a real concern about how protestors are being treated.

I have listened to and I appreciate all of the comments that are being made. We all care deeply about Ukraine. We share the concerns of many of our constituents and Canadians as a whole, especially those of Canadian heritage who might be listening in on the debate. They want to see answers.

I especially appreciate the comments from the member opposite. I know he has been deeply engaged, and I appreciate that when he talks about the Holodomor, he speaks the truth.

As we know what is taking place now, live, because of news coverage, are there some specific things that the member believes we could be doing that could have an impact? For example, the member for Wascana made reference to having some form of sanctions for those politicians, including the President, so they do not have free travel throughout the world.

Are there things that the member believes we could be doing that could provide hope for those who might be listening, or that might have more of an impact on what is happening today, particularly in Independence Square and the many other protest sites?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Chair, there could be two schools of thought on that. There are definitely those who want to see us bring forward sanctions, want to see us be tougher in our dealings, to walk away from any co-operation that we have with Ukraine.

We have the youth mobility agreement. We have had discussions already, which we have suspended, on Canada-Ukrainian free trade. We have military co-operation in training officers and doing officer exchanges between Ukraine and Canada.

Some people would say that we should be stopping that. Definitely we should be looking at the oligarchs and other powerful people within Ukraine who have money stashed around the world, to try to apply some freezes on that.

I am not opposed to some of those ideas. I think from the government's standpoint, especially what I am hearing from the Ukrainian-Canadian Congress and from my constituents who are interested in this, whether they have Ukrainian heritage or not, people want to see us more engaged. They want to see us pulling the people of the Ukraine and the governments they have into more of a western model. If we abandon them now or push them away, and it is seen as pushing them away, it may embolden some of their neighbours.

Right now, one of the reasons we are where we are today is because of some of the bullying tactics that have been implemented by some of their neighbours to the north. Because of that interference and the fearmongering that has taken place to essentially push President Yanukovych into walking away from the table with the European Union, we need to be out there with the Europeans, the Americans, and with other allies who want to see a stronger, more westernized and more democratic Ukraine.

We will have to be fairly sensitive on how we move forward. We do not want to allow any dollars to flow into the wrong hands. However, we definitely believe that economic prosperity is tied to increased trade with the European Union and the rest of the world. We do not want to be caught up in old imperialistic relationships that have not benefited the people of the Ukraine for the last century.