Debates of Feb. 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion—Aboriginal Canadians

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole]

It being 5:30 p.m., pursuant to an order made on Thursday, January 31, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion of the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan relating to the business of supply.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #611

Business of Supply

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I declare the motion carried.

It being 5:56 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business, as listed on today's order paper.

Homes Not Connected to a Sanitation System

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

moved:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should study the possibility of establishing, in co-operation with the provinces and territories, one or more financial support programs, inspired by the one proposed by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, that would bring up to standard the septic systems of homes not connected to a sanitation system, in an effort to ensure urban/rural balance, lake protection, water quality and public health.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present today my Motion No. 400, which seeks to protect the water and public health of our rural communities. The motion calls on the government to study the possibility of helping to bring up to standard the septic systems of homes not connected to a sanitation system, in an effort to ensure urban/rural balance and the protection of our lakes, rivers, water quality and public health.

As an MP who lives in a rural area, I had to bring this issue before the House in order to address the urban/rural imbalance in federal priorities and because this is important for the environment and public health.

I am using my motion to highlight this important issue for Canadians in rural ridings and I hope that it will encourage the House to take meaningful action in the service of our fellow citizens.

Since I was elected, I have made it my duty to consult with, and listen to, residents in my riding with a view to taking meaningful action on their behalf. This motion stems from concern in my riding, but also concern on the part of all Canadians who live in rural communities, which is approximately a quarter of all Canadians.

The first person to raise the issue being debated in this motion was Scott Pearce, the mayor of the Township of Gore, which is in my riding. The mayor cares about the well-being of the residents of his municipality and he was the Conservative candidate in Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel in 2008. I am proud to have him as an ally and to be working alongside him on behalf of the people of our region.

In 2006, he began fighting for an assistance program for property owners with septic tanks who have to replace or upgrade their tanks. He noted that a number of residents in his municipality were not able to make their septic tanks compliant due to the huge cost involved.

For those who may not be familiar with the issue, rural homes are not connected to municipal waste water treatment plants and on-site treatment and disposal of waste water are relied on.

While researching this project, I had the opportunity to visit the Ontario Rural Wastewater Centre of the University of Guelph's Alfred campus to meet the staff members and discuss the issue. They told me that in Ontario, for example, there are approximately 1.2 million on-site systems and this number is increasing at a rate of 25,000 systems each year. The costs are highly variable depending on a number of factors like proximity to the house, soil type and house size, but can be anywhere from $5,000 to $20,000 each time for the homeowner.

Replacing the tanks amounts to a huge financial burden for rural residents, especially those with a below-average or fixed income, such as retirees.

At the same time, the federal and provincial governments are setting aside up to 85% of funds to ensure that municipalities can build or modernize their infrastructure. Cities can get federal grants that easily amount to the cost of one tank per residence. Rural residents feel abandoned by the federal government on this issue.

With that in mind, Mr. Pearce sought the support of the RCM of Argenteuil. The region is greatly affected by this problem, and the RCM has supported his work. With local allies such as Julien Béliveau, Agnès Grondin, environmental advisor to the RCM of Argenteuil, and Marc Carrière, the executive director of the RCM of Argenteuil, he has continued to put—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. There is too much noise in the chamber. I would ask the members to continue their conversations outside the chamber.

The hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank Julien Béliveau, Agnès Grondin, the environmental advisor for the RCM of Argenteuil, and Marc Carrière, the executive director of the RCM of Argenteuil, who continued to raise this important issue for the environment, for the economy and for true equality between rural and urban communities.

I would also like to thank all the RCMs, all the municipalities and all the constituents in my riding who have also given me an enormous amount of support on this initiative.

Mr. Pearce also received the support of the Fédération québécoise des municipalités and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the FCM.

The FCM represents virtually all Canadian municipalities. The organization, speaking on behalf of Canadian municipal issues from across the country, adopted a resolution asking the federal government to treat rural communities fairly by investing a fair share into the protection of water and health of the rural communities. Despite all the work that Scott did on the issue, with the support of his MRC and the FCM, the Conservative government's response was a resounding rejection, showing a clear lack of attention and sensitivity to the real concerns of rural communities.

The fact that this is an important issue in my riding should not prevent anyone from seeing that it is also an important issue across the country.

After attending the FCM conference in Saskatoon last year, I obtained the support of the FCM for the motion that I am presenting today. According to the FCM:

The municipal sector and the federal government are jointly responsible for protecting public health and the environment. We are convinced that the government can include septic systems in its comprehensive approach to water and deal with the issue of waste water for all Canadians.

Canada's rural municipalities want to work with the federal government using a comprehensive approach with clear commitments.

There are many rural municipalities across the country, literally from coast to coast, that are calling for the federal government to take a leadership role on this issue. From Gambo in Newfoundland and Labrador to the city of Powell River in British Columbia and everywhere in between, from the village of Delia, Alberta, the town of Lumsden in Saskatchewan to Saint-Roch-de-l'Achigan in Quebec to Grand-Sault in New Brunswick, municipalities have responded to this proposal with overwhelming support.

The Association of Summer Villages of Alberta, for example, which represents 51 municipalities directly affected by the motion, wrote to me describing its situation, saying:

--deficient waste water management is a major polluter. We recognize the need to have proper waste water systems but do not have the funds/ resources to establish these systems....up to acceptable standards so as to protect the public resources: lake protection, water quality and public health.

Many other municipalities across Canada wrote to me to express their support for the motion, for example, the village of Fruitvale in British Columbia. It said:

--the rural area surrounding Fruitvale has only sceptic field sewage systems and in recent years a number of them have failed which has caused significant financial problems for some rural homeowners.

The town of Conception Bay in Newfoundland said:

A financial program to assist those not yet connected would be beneficial and appreciated by those who would avail of possible funding.

I could go on and on, but what is important to note is that this is such an important issue for all rural municipalities across the country.

In response to my proposal, the government might say that it has already invested in wastewater treatment infrastructure. However, it has only done so for cities and village centres, leaving rural Canadians to their own devices. Meanwhile, federal taxes paid by rural Canadians are being invested only in the cities. Rural Canadian citizens do not want preferential treatment; all they want is fair treatment.

The government might say that there is a Canada Mortgage and Housing (CMHC) program that addresses the problem. Unfortunately, the program does nothing of the kind. According to Gore Township:

…the CMHC and Société d'habitation du Québec programs… do not address the socioeconomic issue being described and the funds allocated for the region… are laughable compared to potential demand;

For the RCM of Argenteuil, a total of $90,000 has been made available for a population of 30,000. That amounts to five or six septic tanks for every 30,000 people. It is completely ridiculous. The situation is not unique to Quebec either; information from the municipality of Delia, Alberta, for example, corroborates this. According to the municipality:

--grants from the Province of Alberta cannot be used to assist private property owners to upgrade their private sewer systems...

In a discussion of the matter with their member of Parliament, he admitted that it was not enough to deal with the problem.

Nevertheless, the problem is more than anything else an environmental issue. My motion was accordingly supported by the Regroupement des organismes de bassins versants du Québec, a non-profit organization of various drainage basin organizations working to mobilize, coordinate and generate action by citizens and water stakeholders.

The importance of water in Canada is all too often forgotten. With more than two million lakes and the world’s largest reserves of soft water, we often take our water for granted. However, even though it is a resource that is essential to life, the environment and our economy, it is not protected from contamination.

Outdated septic tanks ought not to be taken lightly. An analysis prepared by the United Nations Environment Programme states that:

Septic tank systems, the largest source of waste discharged to the land, contain many organic contaminants and are suspected to be one of the key sources of rural well contamination.

According to Environment Canada, waste water causes the loss of oxygen dissolved in lakes and is therefore responsible for the death of fish and other aquatic biota. Phosphorus and nitrogen can also cause eutrophication or the overfertilization of receiving waters that can become toxic for aquatic organisms, promote the excessive growth of plants and thus reduce the amount of available oxygen, harm and alter the habitat and lead to the decline of some species.

The problem is not new. As pointed out by the Laurentides' CRE, “waste water ... has been considered a source of pollution and eutrophication of aquatic environment for over 30 years.” Therefore, non-compliant or poorly maintained septic systems can cause “a proliferation of algae, aquatic plants and sometimes cyanobacteria”.

So, it is clear that obsolete and defective septic tanks have a major impact on our environment, and that inaction would have disastrous consequences.

We only have to look at the situation of Lake Simcoe, for example. The government's plan to revitalize and clean it is immense. Thirty million dollars have been set aside to fight against the phosphorous destroying the ecology of this important southern Ontario lake.

Environment Canada's press release for this plan describes that:

As part of this investment, the Septic System Funding Program will receive $760,000, for the third phase of a multi-year initiative. Building on the success of Phases 1 and 2, this program will continue to administer grant funds in order to encourage landowners within 300 metres of Lake Simcoe to upgrade and/or repair their current septic systems.

Another example is Lake Winnipeg. Again the government has had to intervene with a program of expensive and extensive phosphorous pollution cleanup that could have been avoided.

While, I am very glad the government is acting to clean up Lake Simcoe and Lake Winnipeg, a substantial amount of money could have been saved if we had acted before it got to the point of no return.

Canadian lakes and rivers are important natural resources and regional economic engines. All Canadians want to preserve and protect their environment and their health.

In conclusion, this motion would have a positive impact on the environment, because defective septic tanks are a major source of pollution for our lakes and rivers. It would also have a positive impact on our economy, because a measure like the one proposed in our motion is good for the financial health of those Canadians who are affected. Finally, it would have a positive impact on rural-urban equity.

I hope all members from all parties in this House realize that the motion is an invitation to discuss this issue and find solutions for Canadians in rural settings.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have just one question for my hon. colleague. Why did she decide to make this a private member's motion rather than a private member's bill, which if passed would have far more power and far wider implementation?

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that was a very simple question, and I will provide my colleague with a very simple answer.

The thing I would like us to do is discuss the motion. I do not want the government to feel that its hands would be tied by legislation. I want us to take concrete action together as a House. I hope the member will see this as an opportunity for the House to do something for rural Canadians, for real. I hope we can all work together so that this becomes a reality.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

As we saw in the motion this morning, we must not have second-class citizens. People must be able to fully enjoy rural life. That also means that we need measures related to septic tanks.

However, since this is a federal-provincial program involving the municipalities, I would like to know whether she has already contacted the Government of Quebec to see if she could find an attentive ear.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with the FQM's support for the motion and the proposed program, we would clearly need to work with the province to ensure that everything runs smoothly.

We all know that the municipalities fall under provincial jurisdiction whereas waste water falls under federal jurisdiction. We therefore have to work with all the stakeholders involved. That is why I included this in the motion.

I hope that all the stakeholders who are interested in implementing a program will work together in good faith to produce tangible results for Canadians.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel. She is truly a strong voice in the House.

She just spoke not only on behalf of her riding, which she represents so well, but also on behalf of Canadians living in rural areas across the country.

There have been signs that the Conservatives may support this motion, at least I hope they will.

My question for the hon. member is quite simple: does she think this is really a matter of quality of life for rural areas of the country and that they should finally be put on equal footing with the country's urban areas?

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

According to the FCM, approximately one-quarter of Canadians have septic tanks. It is true that this affects many Canadians right across the country.

A lot of people are leaving the regions. And the septic tanks is one of the reasons they give for not wanting to buy a house in the regions. It should not be. Everyone pays the same taxes. Everyone should receive fair treatment and receive the same investments as everyone else.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I recognize that there is a good intention behind the motion. I want to ask the member about her understanding of provincial jurisdiction. Why has she decided to bring the motion forward to the House, when this is clearly an issue under provincial and/or territorial jurisdiction.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is really a shared priority. Jurisdiction is shared with the federal, municipal and provincial governments. That is why we need to work with all levels of government if we are going to be setting up a program.

If something is administered by a municipality it does not mean that the federal government can take leadership on the issue. Again, I made this a motion so that the House and the government could make concrete moves toward helping rural Canadians.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague opposite on putting forward, I believe, her first motion to the House of Commons. I have done so myself. It is not an easy thing to do, and sometimes it can cause a lot of work in one's own office. I appreciate that, and I want to make sure that my comments reflect that tone of appreciation.

I would, however, like to comment on some of the comments by the hon. colleague opposite in her speech with regard to the summer villages in Alberta, for example, which I am very well aware of. In fact, I actually just got off the phone with one of my municipalities. We were talking about this issue.

When a member puts forward a motion in the House of Commons and calls up different municipalities and says, “I'm going to do something that's going to get you more money for vital infrastructure in your riding”, that raises their expectations, which I think is unfortunate. There are a couple of things to look at. First, we know that this is a provincial jurisdiction. We know that this is under municipal jurisdiction. Under the wastewater systems effluent regulations under the Fisheries Act, we know that septic systems for individuals fall under provincial and municipal jurisdiction.

The other problem is the fact that the member herself acknowledges that she wanted to put forward a motion, knowing that it would not bind the government's hands. I find it somewhat troubling when the member opposite decides not to take the concrete steps of actual legislation. She would rather talk about it in the form of a motion, because she knows that it would require a royal recommendation and the government would not even have a chance to vote on it. Instead, it was put forward in this manner, which I find to be somewhat troubling. It raises the expectations of a municipality such as Bonnyville, which I just spoke to. They are not necessarily cognizant of all these facts.

The other aspect, as members well know, is that our government has invested a lot of money in many of the lakes and rivers for environmental protection. I know that Lake Simcoe has. I know that Georgian Bay has been announced. I know that Lake Winnipeg has received money for this. These are great things that should be celebrated. It should not be used as a fearmongering tactic to say that the environment is being penalized.

I would like to continue by thanking the member for Simcoe—Grey for the excellent work she has done in trying to advocate and for ensuring that everybody understands what the motion actually represents.

While I certainly appreciate the hon. member's good intentions, I must inform the House that the government will not be supporting the motion. The regulation of household septic systems off reserve is, as I said, the responsibility of provinces and territories. This simply is not an area of federal jurisdiction.

We continue, however, to take action, in areas of federal responsibility, to protect Canada's environment and the health of our citizens. Last July, for example, our government announced the new wastewater systems effluent regulations, which were established under the authority of the Fisheries Act, after consulting with the provinces, territories, aboriginal communities and other stakeholders. These regulations are the federal government's principal instrument for implementing the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment's Canada-wide strategy for the management of municipal wastewater effluent. While the regulations do not apply to household septic systems, they do tackle the largest source of water pollution in Canada.

Our government is also making historic investments in public infrastructure. Public wastewater infrastructure has been one of the key categories of investment under the federal infrastructure program. Since 2007, approximately $1.8 billion has been committed to over 1,200 wastewater projects across the country under the building Canada fund and a number of economic action plan infrastructure programs. Also, under Canada's economic action plan, our government provided $2 billion in low-interest loans to municipalities for housing-related infrastructure projects, including sewage and water systems.

Since 2005, over $600 million has been allocated under the gas tax fund toward wastewater infrastructure across Canada.

The Government of Canada will continue to support public wastewater infrastructure through programs such as the gas tax fund, which is now permanent at $2 billion per year. Municipalities can choose to spend 100% of this funding to upgrade their wastewater infrastructure. In ridings such as mine, in northeast Alberta, that have tremendous growth pressures and enormous responsibilities for more infrastructure, I know that many, but not all, of my municipalities are putting significant amounts of their gas tax money into exactly these kinds of projects. That is exactly the way they would like us to continue to fund them.

It is also worth noting that our government provided $550 million to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to establish the green municipal fund. The fund supports partnerships and the leveraging of public and private sector funding to achieve higher standards of air, water and soil quality as well as climate protection.

While the federal government does not have jurisdiction over private household septic systems, Canadians may be able to access federal support in a couple of ways. The first is through mortgage loan insurance, which can be purchased from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, with the full backing of the Government of Canada. The current parameters for government-backed mortgage loan insurance allow homeowners to refinance their mortgages up to 80% of the value of their homes. Qualified homeowners can apply for CMHC-insured loans for any purpose, including for upgrading septic systems.

Homeowners may also have access to federal funding under the investment in affordable housing framework 2011-2014. Under this framework, CMHC is providing more than $238 million per year to provinces and territories to reduce the number of Canadians in need of housing by improving access to affordable housing that is sound, suitable and sustainable.

Most jurisdictions, provinces and territories match the federal investment and are responsible for program design, delivery and administration. They have the flexibility to invest in a range of solutions, which could include assistance for the repair of septic systems, if they so choose.

In the Yukon and Prince Edward Island, CMHC delivers renovation programs off reserve. Under these programs, forgivable loans are available to qualifying low-income households to address major deficiencies in dwelling structures or systems, including plumbing.

On reserve, first nations chiefs and councils are responsible for planning and developing their capital facilities to provide for the basic infrastructure needs of the community. They are also responsible for the day-to-day operation of water and wastewater systems on reserve.

Our government is making significant investments to support first nations communities in managing their water and wastewater systems. New wastewater treatment systems are eligible for funding when managed centrally by the first nation.

I see that I am running out of time. I would like to once again highlight a couple of things our government has done, not only with CMHC and not only on reserve but in tackling some of the environmental issues in our rivers and lakes. As I have said before, I know that the House is very familiar with the upgrades in Lake Simcoe and Lake Winnipeg through our government. Those are real investments.

These are ways the government can take concrete action without members simply bringing motions forward that have no opportunity of being binding on the government or even on their own parties.

I would like to thank the member for bringing forth this motion so that we have the opportunity to discuss and talk about some of the options. However, at the end of the day, it is important to recognize that our Conservative government is taking real steps to help our environment and to tackle some of the real issues rural Canadians face every single day.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I already congratulated the member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.

I find that the government is being a bit disingenuous today. A member is not only proposing that we have a more extensive debate, so that we can work together to develop the necessary tools, but she is also giving the government a chance to take this and run with it. But now she is being accused of not acting in good faith because she is not capable of getting her own party on board. We have to call a spade a spade. This is a good motion and is a good way of doing things.

The government simply has to put the problem into context. Not everyone has access to municipal infrastructure. Twenty-five percent of homes, especially in rural regions, do not have access to the municipal sewer system. Instead of waiting until sewage becomes a problem, when we see the worst case scenario, we are calling for preventive measures.

I am part of the government that created the first one-third, one-third, one-third infrastructure program, and there were different components. Not everyone has a pipe running to their house, but we need to find a way to ensure that they have a good quality of life.

This is especially important because water quality is not the only thing at stake: it is also an environmental issue. Given that the Canadian government is already moving forward on other environmental measures, I am convinced there must be a way to reach an acceptable, respectful agreement that recognizes all jurisdictions.

The Government of Canada has done it before. We created something as part of the third component. We had green infrastructure. When I was minister of sports, we found a way to invest in recreational tourism. Recreation is under provincial jurisdiction, but there is also amateur sport, so we found a solution. The same thing applies to the environment.

My colleague is right: the situation is different here. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the Fédération québécoise des municipalités lobbied for that cause, and I think it is a good thing.

Our role is to make people's life better and easier, and to create an environment that fosters agreements. That is why I asked my colleague a question—I am not sure she understood me. I wanted to know whether she had already talked with officials from the Quebec government, as they are used to this type of thing.

Municipalities are indeed creatures of the provinces, as was said at the time. However, we are facing a different set of circumstances. With the situation as it is today, we all have to work together without constantly coming down with “acute constitutionalitis”. We can do what is appropriate. Jurisdiction over the environment and infrastructure is shared and I do not see why we could not find a solution. Why make it simple when we can make it complicated, as the government does?

Instead of my colleague from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel being lectured on procedure, she should have been congratulated, and not half-heartedly. She wants so much for this motion to be adopted that she is even giving the government a chance to seize the opportunity by telling her they will set up a program. There is no need to enact legislation when you create a program. The minister responsible for infrastructure should sit down with his counterparts, hold a federal-provincial-territorial conference to determine how things can be arranged, and create a program. An infrastructure program has already been proposed. Can it be adjusted, since 25% of houses do not have access to the municipal infrastructure level? It seems to me that we can find a solution. This is what we call common sense.

They will be pleased to hear me talk about common sense, since Premier Harris used to talk about common sense in Ontario. I offer them that at no charge. They do not have to pay me any royalties for it.

Clearly the Liberal Party of Canada will support this motion. There are ways to arrange for a program without treading on jurisdictional toes. If the official opposition needs us to, we will offer to work with them to try to make the government understand that this is in people’s interest, because we are all first-class citizens.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am really pleased to rise today in support of today's motion to protect water and public health in rural communities. This is an excellent motion, and I applaud the member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel for bringing it forward. She is bringing forward a sound policy idea.

As we heard in her speech tonight, she listened to her constituents and identified a gap in policy. Working with her community along with outside experts she came up with a creative policy solution to solve the problem. This is a perfect example of responsible representation by an MP and I am proud to say that the MP for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel is one of my NDP colleagues. It is great work.

Motion No. 400 seeks to study the establishment of financial support programs to bring homes connected to a septic system up to a standard, with the aim of improving public and environmental health. This kind of program would make Canadians in rural communities, who are often left out of city initiatives, a priority. It would carry benefits both for the environment and the economy.

The federal government invests millions of dollars to bring municipal wastewater treatment systems up to standard, but more than a quarter of all Canadians, mainly in rural areas, are not connected to these city treatment systems. They depend instead on home septic systems. As it stands, 25% of Canadians are forced to pay out-of-pocket to maintain their septic systems on top of the taxes they pay for the municipal services they do not use.

Some may wonder why the member for Halifax would be standing to speak to the motion. My riding does include rural communities that are not part of the municipal wastewater system. I am pleased to tell the House that the motion has been endorsed by some communities in Nova Scotia.

I also support the motion from my perspective as the NDP environment critic. From an environmental and health perspective, a consensus exists that outdated septic systems in low income rural areas pose a threat to water quality and public health. Updating these systems is quite expensive and often too costly a project for Canadians.

The government understands the importance of maintaining high standards for wastewater treatment in cities. We need to establish the same high standards for our rural constituents. We have to develop a funding program for homeowners who do not have the means to ensure that their septic systems meet those environmental standards.

The member for Westlock—St. Paul said earlier in the House that he did think the motion was in federal jurisdiction. He said that government members would not be supporting the motion, keeping in mind of course that it will not be a whipped vote and that members will be free to vote as they want. With respect, saying that the motion is not within federal jurisdiction is just a way to duck the issue. This is a perfect opportunity for federal leadership.

I checked the website of the member for Westlock—St. Paul. He celebrates things on his website like $9,000 that went to the Cold Lake Public Library flooring renovation and $23,000 to the Gibbons curling rink for upgrades. Members might be wondering what in the world flooring upgrades and curling rink upgrades have to do with federal jurisdiction. That is a good question. These kinds of projects are federal issues and do fall within federal jurisdiction because the money comes from a community infrastructure fund. Why would the federal government not show leadership on something like Motion No. 400? Why would it duck this issue? Why would it not take real leadership and stand up for the health and environmental protection of our rural communities?

Motion No. 400 would be an important step toward increasing the equality of services for both rural and urban taxpayers. Rural living is becoming more expensive and services are becoming more difficult to access. Citizens in these areas are often unable to reap the benefits of many of the federal programs that we do see coming forward. We need to give rural Canadians the support they need to maintain the same standard of living as city dwellers, rather than force them to relocate to cities.

Further, the motion would help to protect both water quality and public health. Outdated sceptic systems are a major source of pollution in rural communities. They have been shown to contribute to the growth of bacteria in our water. By leaving these sceptic systems in their current state, we risk contaminating our drinking water, which of course poses a serious danger to the health of Canadians.

Water contamination can affect not only drinking water, but also aquatic ecosystems and beaches. A number of rural communities depend on this kind of tourism, and the economic losses that come with water contamination are serious.

In addition to supporting local economies, this measure would be of personal financial benefit. It could relieve rural Canadians of a disproportionate financial burden and allow them to participate more fully in their local economies. The motion would go a long way to solving those kinds of problems.

All of this means that rural communities would be strengthened if these measures were to be taken. The motion is a real and tangible way to improve the quality of life of rural Canadians, and it is actually part of a larger package of policies that the NDP is proposing to help rural communities.

The motion was inspired by a resolution of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities that flagged as a problem the lack of federal support for septic system upgrades. On behalf of their constituents, who are really our constituents, they are pressuring the federal government to act on this issue. The federation, along with over 70 individual municipalities on just the first day of debate, have all expressly supported Motion M-400.

The Conservatives say that existing federal funding meets this need, but the municipalities are vigorously disputing this claim. We have evidence from different municipalities saying that existing programs do not solve this socio-economic problem, and that the funding does not come close to the demand that exists. Federal investments in infrastructure simply do not target the distinct and widespread need for financial support for rural sceptic system upgrades. Current investment in this area is in no way comparable to what is spent in urban areas. Federal and provincial governments have contributed up to 85% of the cost to upgrade municipal water systems, but rural Canadians are forced to bear the full cost of upgrading their sceptic systems themselves, simply because of where they live.

I really hope, despite the fact that we have had some indications the government will vote against the motion, that all members will give serious consideration to this arbitrary inequality that leaves rural Canadians with a disproportionate economic burden.

The federal government must carefully consider the implications of the current financing system for rural Canadians. As parliamentarians, we must take a good, hard look at the problem that families cannot afford to replace their sceptic tanks and maintain water quality in their communities. We have to explore the opportunities that could provide these Canadians with the financial support they need for important investments.

Canadians across the country have signed a petition calling on the government to consider establishing a financial support program to upgrade outdated sceptic systems for families in need. I echo their support of this motion, because I believe that rural Canadians deserve the same quality of service, the same health protections and the same ability to participate in their economies and society as every other Canadian. I believe that Motion M-400 does just that, so I am proud to support it.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate on Motion M-400, which calls on the government to consider establishing a financial support program to help Canadians bring private residential sceptic systems up to standard.

The hon. member sees this as a means of protecting Canadian lakes, water quality and public health. Certainly, those are commendable goals, and our government is working hard to achieve them.

While I understand the good intentions with which the motion was put forward, the government will not be supporting Motion M-400. Since the regulation of sceptic systems is a provincial and territorial area of responsibility, we believe that the provinces and territories are best positioned to understand and respond to local issues of this nature.

Having said that, our government is doing its part to improve wastewater management and treatment. We have invested heavily in public wastewater infrastructure, providing approximately $1.8 billion since 2007. This funding has contributed to more than 1,200 wastewater projects across the country, and on an ongoing basis, we are providing municipalities with $2 billion a year through the gas tax fund, money that can be used to upgrade wastewater infrastructure through municipalities if they choose to do so.

The investment in the affordable housing framework announced by the federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for housing in July 2011 is another possible source of federal support. This framework provides for a combined investment of $1.4 billion over three years to reduce the number of Canadians in housing need.

Provinces and territories are responsible for program development and delivery, and they certainly have the capacity to direct funding to upgrade private sceptic systems if this is considered a priority by them.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation’s mortgage insurance can also help homeowners get funding to repair or replace their septic systems.

With mortgage insurance from CMHC, qualified homeowners can refinance their mortgages for up to 80% of the value of their home, and then use the resulting funds to make improvements to their plumbing or other systems.

I would also like to take the opportunity to comment on an area where the government has found an important role with respect to household septic systems. This role is in helping first nations to provide better water and waste water services on reserve.

Hon. members on both sides of the House will agree that the living conditions for many first nations communities are below those of other Canadians.

Working in partnership with first nations, our government is taking action on a number of fronts, including supporting first nations in operating their waste water and water systems on reserve. Each year our government provides approximately $197.5 million in water and waste water programs to first nation communities. This funding assists first nation chiefs and councils in their responsibility to plan and develop water and waste water systems on reserve. This is a significant investment, but we recognize there is more to be done to improve the health and quality of life for people in first nation communities.

Our government made a commitment to address on-reserve water and waste water issues on a priority basis, and subsequently released the “National Assessment of First Nations Water and Wastewater Systems--2009–2011”. We identified three key areas of action: enhanced capacity building and operator training, enforceable standards and protocols, and infrastructure investments. Progress has been made in each of these areas, and I am pleased to say that even bigger improvements lie ahead.

Canada's economic action plan 2012 provided for new investments of $330.8 million over two years to help first nations provide better water and waste water services to their residents. This investment, which is over and above the funding we provide annually, will sustain the progress that has been made to date in building and renovating water and waste water infrastructure on reserve. It will also support the development of a long-term strategy to improve water quality in first nation communities. As a result of this planned investment, risk levels will be reduced and access to clean water on reserve will improve.

Analysis shows that 60% of the risk identified in annual performance inspections of water and waste water systems relate to systems operations, maintenance, operator training and certification, as well as record keeping and reporting. To improve results in these areas, during the first year of this plan $32 million will be invested in training for first nations, and an additional $47.7 million will be invested to support operations and maintenance. New investments will also be made to support the construction and renovation of water and waste water treatment facilities.

In year one, capital investments of $47 million will be prioritized to target high- and medium-risk systems in over 50 first nation communities. Canoe Lake in Saskatchewan, Tallcree First Nation in Alberta and Nazko First Nation in British Columbia are among the communities that will benefit from this funding.

Finally, Health Canada will support first nations with an investment of $27.4 million per year to build capacity, enhance monitoring, increase public awareness and review project proposals from a public health perspective. Chiefs and councils will continue to be responsible for public health measures such as issuing drinking water advisories to affected communities, communicating the information to residents and addressing drinking water quality challenges.

Once this two-year plan is fully implemented, our government will have invested approximately $3 billion between 2006 and 2014 to support first nation communities in managing their water and waste water infrastructure. Clearly the government attaches great importance to this issue. We are making the investments needed to achieve results.

Another way our government is taking action is by introducing legislation that will enable us to develop, with first nations, enforceable drinking water regulations and standards to be applied on reserve lands. As hon. members know, Bill S-8, the safe drinking water for first nations act, was introduced in the Senate last year. The proposed legislation is the product of discussions between the government and first nations on safe drinking water legislation and enforceable standards over the past five years. Bill S-8 has been approved by the Senate and is now awaiting second reading here in the House. I urge all members to support this meaningful legislation.

In closing, let me reiterate that the proposal from the hon. member would take the Government of Canada into an area of provincial and territorial responsibility. For this reason, Motion No. 400 will not be supported by the government. We will, however, continue to work co-operatively with federal and provincial governments and with first nations to protect public health, preserve the environment and improve the quality of life of Canadians. We will do so by continuing to focus our attention and investments in areas of federal responsibility where they can have the greatest impact.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to rise in the House today to support Motion No. 400 moved by my colleague from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel. The motion seeks to protect the water and public health of our rural communities.

It is particularly important to me to support this motion because, in addition to the fact that I represent a mostly rural riding, issues related to the contamination of groundwater and the quality of water are of particular interest in my riding. In fact, the Jacques-Cartier River flows through my region and for the past few years has had high levels of TCE contamination. Although we are talking of another kind of contamination today, it is a particularly important issue for my constituents and for all those who live far from Canada's urban centres.

I would like to congratulate my colleague from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel for presenting the motion in the House. She and I had the opportunity to attend the Federation of Canadian Municipalities conference held in Saskatoon last June. I found that her motion was well received by mayors and municipal councillors from across Canada. They appreciated her initiative.

According to some government members, municipalities are not interested in this type of program and want to continue receiving inadequate infrastructure funding. That is not true. That is not what I heard from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, and that is not what I am hearing from the mayors in my riding.

I think it is worth quickly rereading the motion. I think some aspects have been misunderstood by the members opposite. Motion No. 400 calls on the government to:

...study the possibility of establishing [this is the important point], in cooperation with the provinces and territories, one or more financial support programs...that would bring up to standard the septic systems of homes not connected to a sanitation system, in an effort to ensure urban/rural balance, lake protection, water quality and public health.

One or more programs could be based on programs that the FCM proposed a few years ago.

The motion, therefore, in no way suggests overstepping provincial or territorial areas of jurisdiction. On the contrary, water quality is a matter of shared jurisdiction, and we are calling for a program to be developed in collaboration with our provincial and territorial partners. We are calling for all parties to take part in finding solutions, because this is a very important issue in our rural regions. I think that the government perhaps misunderstood this. I hope that we were able to clarify the fact that the motion is calling for co-operation with our provincial and territorial partners.

The motion deals with an issue that goes to the heart of the everyday concerns of thousands of Canadians throughout the country. It is extremely important both in order to reduce the economic burden on families living in rural areas and to protect water quality and public health.

It should not be forgotten that, often, rivers and waterways across rural regions and the urban centres get their water from these water sources, which cross agricultural areas and other regions where there are houses with septic tanks that, unfortunately, do not comply with current standards. Contamination may therefore occur in urban centres. This motion seeks to help all Canadians, regardless of where they live.

Today, as I rise to speak in this House, over 25% of Canadians do not have municipal sewage services and have no choice but to use independent septic systems on their properties. This is perhaps due to the fact that their residence is built on land that cannot be connected to a pipeline network. There may be a whole host of factors. The residences may simply be too far from major urban centres, and residents may have no choice but to have autonomous sanitary facilities. Residents must pay for this themselves, and it is often very costly to replace or render compliant their septic tanks.

Every year, the federal government invests millions of dollars to help municipalities comply with very strict standards regarding their sewage systems, and yet, over a quarter of Canadians have been completely forgotten by the Conservatives.

It is high time that the government act and stop hiding behind bogus excuses about jurisdictional issues and whatever other unsubstantiated reasons they are giving as to why they are not supporting the motion.

In rural communities, many septic facilities that service isolated residences are no longer adequate and require major and urgent work to bring them up to standard.

Outdated septic systems are potentially a major hazard in terms of water quality and the health of all Canadians. For over 30 years, sewage from isolated residences has been recognized as a major source of pollution and eutrophisation of our bodies of water.

Inadequate, outdated, tweaked, and non-compliant septic systems lead to an increase in the concentration of phosphorus in waterways, which may result in the excessive proliferation of cyanobacteria. These systems also represent a serious hazard when it comes to human health, especially when associated with the consumption of contaminated water, fish, and shellfish; the presence of waste on the shoreline; and water being exposed to contaminated sediments.

Unfortunately, due to the significant cost of replacing or standardizing a septic tank—the cost runs between $5000 and $20,000—some owners are forced to postpone the work, which results in an increased risk in terms of the quality of our waterways, and also public health.

This situation unfortunately occurs quite frequently in my riding, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, where almost all 28 municipalities have a large number of isolated residences that are served by self-contained septic systems. More than two-thirds of residences in many of the municipalities there are hooked up to septic tanks rather than to a municipal sewer system. That is a very large number.

Many of those municipalities have quite small populations—from a few hundred to a few thousand inhabitants—but are generally spread over an area of up to several tens of square kilometres. For those municipalities, which already have little in the way of resources, millions of dollars in investments would be required to extend their sewer systems to every residence in their area, which is utterly inconceivable for them.

Those municipalities take alternative measures to protect their water. The RCMs organize common septic pumping and inspection services. I am thinking, for example, of the municipality of Saint-Augustin-de-Desmaures. There were major problems with pollution in Lac Saint-Augustin, particularly as a result of non-compliant septic tanks, and the municipalities have taken steps to revitalize the shorelines and provide citizens with better information so that they can take measures to prevent lake pollution. However, those measures are not always enough. What is required are septic tanks that are up to standard and regularly inspected.

The federal, provincial and territorial governments will support the municipalities that need to build or renovate their wastewater treatment systems, but the rural communities unfortunately do not have access to those same services. It is absolutely unfair that taxpayers living in rural areas, like the citizens I represent, should have to finance the construction and maintenance of their septic systems on their own, whereas citizens living in urban centres receive a form of financial contribution for equivalent services.

At a meeting between the Leader of the Opposition and the mayors of the Jacques-Cartier RCM on January 23, the mayors stated very clearly that it was time for the government to act and stop making the false excuses we heard in the House today. In addition to calling for major investments in infrastructure in general, particularly in roads and water and sewer systems, the mayors were very much in favour of the measures that motion M-400 is calling for this government to consider.

The mayors of Jacques-Cartier and several other municipalities across the country know that this motion meets a genuine, pressing need expressed by the rural population, and they want to see tangible measures taken by the Conservatives, not just fine promises and hollow words, as we often hear.

This government has a responsibility to take all necessary measures to ensure that all citizens have access to good, high-quality drinking water, whether they live in town or in the country. The Conservatives have already told us they do not want to support the motion. They are trying to wash their hands of the matter by saying that this is a provincial issue and that there are already federal programs for this purpose. That is quite inconsistent. What is needed is action.

Like my NDP colleagues, I am very proud to support this motion. The Liberals have also told us they will support it. I hope the Conservatives will finally listen to their constituents, mayors and municipal councillors and decide to support this motion as well.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

The hour provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

Disability Tax Credit Promoters Restrictions Act

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

moved that Bill C-462, An Act restricting the fees charged by promoters of the disability tax credit and making consequential amendments to the Tax Court of Canada Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, as the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, it is my pleasure today to speak in support of my private member's bill, Bill C-462, An Act restricting the fees charged by promoters of the disability tax credit and making consequential amendments to the Tax Court of Canada Act.

My intention for bringing this legislation before the House is straightforward. I want to see increased protection for disabled Canadians from the predatory practices of some disability tax credit promoters who see the tax credit as an opportunity to profit on the reduced circumstances of others.

The disability tax credit is a non-refundable tax credit that reduces the amount of income tax that either individuals with disabilities or their supporting persons have to pay. Parliament voted in this tax credit with the recognition that Canadians with disabilities face financial challenges.

Canadians may be eligible for the disability tax credit if all or substantially all of the time they are unable to perform one or more of the basic activities of daily living, even with therapy and the use of appropriate devices and medication.

Basic activities of daily living include things like speaking, hearing and eating. The wide array of disabilities eligible under the disability tax credit is important. As the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, which includes CFB Petawawa, I am acutely aware of the number of disabilities with which Canadians are living. The soldiers and veterans of my community are at a greater risk for a number of disabilities because of the sacrifices they make for our country, and the tax credit is of particular importance to them.

For the average Canadian, the maximum federal amount that could be claimed last year was $7,341. This resulted in a maximum federal tax savings of up to $1,101 for 2011. This is significant tax relief for Canadians living with a disability, and that money should be staying in the pockets of Canadians who need it. It should not be swindled away by unregulated promoters. This tax credit is important to them.

My decision to introduce the legislation restricting the fees charged by promoters of the federal government's disability tax credit is a direct result of the aggressive tactics employed by some providers who objected to my decision to issue consumer alerts.

I started issuing consumer alerts in my riding last year when I found out that some individuals were being charged 20%, 30% or as much as 40% of the tax credit. I felt, and I am hoping that other members of Parliament will agree, that those kinds of charges are unfair, especially when we consider that the purpose of the disability tax credit is to support Canadians living with serious disabilities.

I wanted my constituents in Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke to know that they can access their federal member of Parliament regarding any federal tax credit without being charged a percentage of the tax credit.

Changes were put in place in 2005 that made benefits receivable on a retroactive basis. This created a new incentive for those claiming to be consultants to work with Canadians on their claims, as the dollar amounts on a 10-year retroactive tax refund can be significant.

I started to get a sense of how big an activity this whole tax credit promoter scheme is when a promoter complained about my consumer alert by telling me that he had spent $25,000 on booking space, hotel rooms and media coverage. He expected to make his money back after driving the 905 kilometres to my rural eastern Ontario riding with his travelling road show.

His complaint was: How dare I tell the people to see their member of Parliament and let them have all of the tax refund they qualified for with the disability tax credit?

We are also not talking about a small number of Canadians. The Canada Revenue Agency receives on average 200,000 new disability tax credit applications each year. It is estimated that approximately 9,000 of these requests are received from taxpayers who use the service of a disability tax credit promoter. Last year alone, $800 million in credits were issued.

I am still receiving phone calls and emails with complaints from these promoters. Many of the comments I have received are along the line that they are just helping our government to promote the disability tax credit and they deserve the fees they are getting. I could not disagree more. There may be legitimate companies doing this work. Unfortunately, it is the less scrupulous operators that have identified the need for the legislation I am proposing today.

I ask all members of the House to support Bill C-462. Concerns have been raised by medical professionals who feel they are dealing with an increasing number of fraudulent claims and have at times felt pressured to fill forms out fraudulently by constituents. I know this to be the case because doctors in my riding have told me that this has been their experience.

One doctor related the incident of having an individual sit in his office and refuse to leave until he filled out the disability tax credit certificate to get the tax credit. The doctor, giving his expert medical opinion, insisted on being truthful when asked to complete the tax certificate. This same patient, who had been encouraged in this behaviour by a disability tax credit promoter, was revealed to have visited four doctors previously, looking to have the certificate completed in such a way as to qualify for the tax credit.

Some consultants have even taken the step of employing in-house medical practitioners to sign the medical portion of the disability tax credit application, perhaps having only met the person just once and having no prior knowledge of the applicant's medical history.

Let us talk a bit about the credit. To qualify, an individual must have a severe and prolonged impairment in mental or physical functions, as defined by the Income Tax Act and as certified by a qualified practitioner. Eligibility is not based on the diagnosis of any specific medical condition, but is based on the effects of the conditions on an individual over a prolonged period of time.

Some examples of conditions that may qualify relate to walking. A person with no apparent mobility impairment, who is unable to walk a short distance without stopping frequently to rest because of shortness of breath or pain, may qualify for the disability tax credit because it takes him or her an inordinate amount of time.

Vision may be a condition. Someone who is suffering from a degenerative condition that will not improve with the use of corrective lenses or medication and has a severe visual impairment may qualify for the disability tax credit.

Hearing: A person who, even with the use of a device, is unable to hear or who takes significantly longer than an average person who does not have an impairment to understand spoken conversation may qualify for the disability tax credit.

Speaking: People who, even with therapy devices, are unable to speak so as to be understood and must rely upon other means of communications, or who take significantly longer than an average person who does not have the impairment to make themselves understood may qualify for the disability tax credit.

This list is not meant to be exhaustive. These are just a few examples, and the information is gathered directly from the Canada Revenue Agency website.

My intention in bringing the bill before the House is straightforward. I want to see increased protection for disabled Canadians from the predatory practices of some disability tax credit promoters, on the one hand, and also contribute to a fair, functioning marketplace for those who do wish to use the services of a disability tax credit promoter.

Bill C-462 would provide a new legislative framework to limit the fees charged by promoters for the services of assisting applicants for the disability tax credit. In particular, the bill would restrict the fees that can be charged or accepted by promoters to prepare a request associated with a disability tax credit, DTC, under the Income Tax Act. It would prohibit charging or accepting more than the established maximum fee and would introduce offences and penalties for failure to comply. The bill would introduce a requirement that promoters notify the Canada Revenue Agency when more than the maximum fee has been charged. The provision of the bill would come into force on a day to be fixed by the order of the Governor in Council, at which time the proposed maximum fee would be made public.

This is not an attempt to crack down on those legitimately claiming the credit or to deny claims. It is an attempt to make sure those who qualify and those who require the tax credit are able to receive it without paying unfair charges.

As member of Parliament for the rural eastern Ontario riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, I understand, as does our government, that Canadians can have a difficult time making ends meet. As a result, we offer a very generous range of credits. These tax credits are a key component of our economic action plan, which is a plan for jobs, growth and long-term prosperity that is working for Canadians as we face a global economic downturn.

Examples of important credits include the universal child care benefit, the Canada child tax benefit, children's fitness tax credit, children's art credit, volunteer firefighters credit, first-time home buyers' tax credit and public transit tax credit, just to name a few. These are all credits I encourage my constituents to take advantage of, if they can, and to come to my constituency office where we will help them apply, no charge.

I have spoken to the minister and, to be clear, if individuals qualified for the disability tax credit in 2007 or 2008, say, and their medical situation is the same now as then, they would absolutely qualify for the credit. This is about protecting Canadians from predatory and unfair practices of unregulated promoters. This credit is not intended to line the pockets of promoters.

The disability tax credit promoters are currently totally unregulated. This is producing a system that is increasingly ripe for abuse. Lawyers charge contingency fees, but they are bound by strict codes of ethics, and bar associations carefully scrutinize actions to ensure appropriate professional ethical behaviour.

Perhaps most appropriate for today's discussion is that tax preparers are guided by the Tax Rebate Discounting Act and capped at what they can charge for their service. An accountant cannot take 20 minutes, prepare and submit one's taxes and then charge 40% of one's refund. Tax preparers also have a professional organization that promotes ethics and peer review of business practices.

I chose not to set a maximum fee in the legislation because I wanted to allow for consultations with disability groups, medical professionals and legitimate tax professionals to help inform this decision.

I want to ensure that disabled Canadians who do need the help of someone with their applications can get it and we are not imposing unnecessary red tape on doctors or legitimate tax preparers.

There is a rate set in the Tax Rebate Discounting Act for accountants and others who may be part of the discussion on the disability tax credit consultants. The rate under the tax rebate discounting allows for a $45 fee on the first $300 and 5% on amounts above $300. This fee level is something I would expect would be raised during the consultations. There are no similar accountability measures for the disability tax credit—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please. The time for the first speech is now at its limit. We now go to questions and comments.

The hon. member for Saint-Michel.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend the member for introducing the bill. It is a good idea. First, I am shocked a Conservative has presented a bill that would require more regulation, on which I am not totally sold.

In her bill, she says that the definition of a promoter means a person who directly or indirectly accepts or charges a fee in respect to a disability tax credit. Who is a promoter exactly? Is a doctor, or a lawyer or an accountant considered a promoter?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question from my colleague opposite. We are looking at third party promoters quite apart from the regular tax preparers and accountants. It is a new cottage industry that sprung up once the 10-year retroactive provision was made. It recognizes that there are volunteer organizations and even constituency offices that do this type of work. They help constituents fill out applications for tax credits. There is a provision for exemptions so people who volunteer their time at no charge or doctors do not fall into this.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I commend the member for the bill. It seems very useful indeed. There are hundreds of millions of dollars going in unwarranted profits to people who would prey on the most vulnerable Canadians. I applaud her. I will be supporting the bill and I hope all members will as well.

Why specifically did she not set out a maximum fee in relation to the contingency fee charged? I know in Alberta there was talk of this for some period of time in relation to solicitor fees and that was capped at 30%, about 12 years ago, from an unregulated industry. I know that was met with much applause in the industry in Alberta. Did she do much research on this and why she did not set a particular maximum fee?