House of Commons Hansard #204 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was work.

Topics

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Chair, I wanted to pursue the aid to Mali, and I take the hon. parliamentary secretary at her word when she says, roughly, it is $110 million, of which the government portion, the money that was directed to the government, and I would understand that to be about 40% of that money, has been frozen. The balance, however, has not been frozen, and that has been distributed to NGOs working on the ground.

The question really is: Did the $13 million that the minister announced last week come out of that frozen money and has simply been in effect reprofiled from government-directed money to NGO-directed money?

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Mr. Chair, I do not think the opposition likes to take no for an answer, or yes for an answer for that matter.

The $13 million is new money. The minister announced that money in Addis Ababa. It is new money.

It is the government-to-government direct money that has been suspended. We are still working with our NGOs, humanitarian partners, multilateral partners on the ground, and will continue to do so.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:15 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to discuss today the very serious situation that has developed in Mali.

I hope you will not mind if I share a personal experience. I have been to Mali several times, mainly to work with our Malian colleagues, the representatives of civil society, as part of the Forum on Human Security. Mali was part of the Forum, and Canada was an active member at the time. I met extraordinary people who were working very hard to build a better Mali, a Mali for all, a safe Mali. In light of recent events, I cannot help but think of them, their families and all Malians of course.

In recent days and weeks, there have been fairly positive developments. French forces and the forces of the African Union—mainly from Chad in recent days—are making progress. That is good news for two reasons: first, we can see the progress that is being made, and the African Union is helping. That is key.

When talking about the African Union's efforts, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs said a few minutes ago that it should be African-led. I am sorry. Maybe it is my misunderstanding of the English language, but I do not think that African-led means Africa alone. It can mean African-led but with our support. Therefore, I do not think that arguing African-led is reason enough to say that we would not support this effort through the various means available to us, as other countries have done. I am thinking of the U.S., which gave $96 million to AFISMA. The EU gave $67 million and Germany gave $20 million. The African Union itself gave $50 million to AFISMA, on top of the contribution from its member countries in time and money. Canada has given nothing.

Let us move away from the military side, especially as this is not only a military issue.

There are political, social, humanitarian and development issues associated with this situation. I will talk a little about the humanitarian aspect because that is the most urgent.

We are talking about 390,000 people who have been displaced within Mali and to neighbouring countries. We know that neighbouring countries are already in the middle of a terrible food crisis. We have to be there, we have to help these people and the organizations that are on the ground.

The government was pleased to announce a Canadian contribution of $13 million. That is a step in the right direction, and the projects funded by this contribution are beneficial, but we have to admit that it is not very much. By comparison, Japan has provided 10 times as much, or $120 million in humanitarian aid even though it is experiencing serious financial difficulties as a result of the tsunami. Unlike Canada, it does not have historic ties with Mali. Canada's contribution seems rather paltry by comparison.

The humanitarian situation is a short-term issue. We must help those in need and look ahead to the future. We need to look at the long term and ensure that this does not happen again, in Mali or in the other countries in the region. That requires development as well as social and political dialogue in Mali and the other countries in the region.

We must help these countries build democracies that create opportunities for everyone. And Canada can play a unique role in that. As I said, we have historic ties with Mali and a number of countries in the region, through our francophone population, our shared language and our expertise in democratic development in the traditional sense. But we are far removed from Africa. No matter what the members opposite say, we are far removed. Our presence is being felt less and less in the region, and this is a regional issue.

Cuts to CIDA have reached $377 million, and this is having a disproportionate impact on African countries. Embassies are closing. For example, we are pulling out of Niger, a potentially problematic country that borders Mali and that we should stand beside.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs is telling us that it is not a big deal because we have embassies in Dakar, Abidjan and so on. When I hear that, it makes me wonder if people think that Africa is the size of Portugal or Greece. But Africa is huge.

In Dakar, I was responsible for five countries. I am not afraid of hard work, but I had as much work as I could handle. I do not see how someone in Dakar or someone who is involved in the current situation on the Ivory Coast can also cover Niger and another country such as South Africa even, or Malawi and why not a few other Latin American countries while we are at it.

This lack of coverage prevents us from having people on the ground who are closely monitoring the situation. Clearly, the work people do on the ground does not produce quantifiable results. However, it gives us a presence. It allows us to show that we are partners, and it helps us to understand the situation. That is absolutely essential.

On one hand, we are moving away from Africa but on the other, we are unfortunately moving away from a sector in which we have exceptional expertise, for which we were known and which formed part of Canada's brand—if I can call it that—as a promoter of democracy.

I have heard my colleagues say that we will support a democratic Mali. However, it is not enough to support a democratic Mali or to say that we want Mali to be a democratic country and hope that it happens with the wave of a magic wand. We also have to lend a hand.

Great Britain is providing $3.1 million to support the political process. And what are we doing? We are waiting on the sidelines, waiting and watching and becoming more and more insignificant, a partner that does not count. This is preventing us from influencing events as we would like.

I would like to close with a plea for Canada to once again invest in democratic development. Why was the institute for democratic development that was promised by the Conservatives in the 2008 Speech from the Throne never set up? Why did they destroy organizations such as Rights and Democracy, which had a quarter of a century of expertise?

Instead of just saying we support Mali, Canada should really be there and really help the people of Mali.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, my friends in the NDP seem to be a little confused. They have said many times tonight that Canada closed its diplomatic mission, its embassy, in Niger. We did not do that. Canada did not have an embassy in Niger. It never did have an embassy there. What it had was a CIDA office. Niger is covered from Bamako, Mali. It was then and it is now. There has been no change.

They keep saying that Canada is reducing its contributions to Africa. That is not true. Canada has doubled its contributions to Africa since the levels of 2003-04 under the former Liberal government.

My friend asks what Canada is doing with respect to AFISMA. First, the building that AFISMA is operating out of was built largely with Canadian money. There would not be an AFISMA headquarters if it were not for the support of the Canadian government and the Canadian taxpayer.

The members want to know why Japan is putting in $100 million in and Canada is putting in, most recently, $13 million.

Canada has been contributing to Mali since 1960, not Japan. Canada has been putting in $110 million each and every year for many years. Most of that money, as we have discussed tonight, is continuing. It is only the money that was going directly to the government of Mali, which has been frozen because that government currently is not a democratically-elected government.

Canada is one of the largest donor countries in Mali. It has been before and it continues to be today.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to make a few very brief comments.

Basically, we are taking people off the ground. Yet we need people, human beings, to be there, people who are involved, engaging in dialogue, and who can observe and report on the situation and influence events. But those resources are being cut off. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs is also telling us that the Conservatives have not reduced funding to Africa. It is too bad that it is not my turn to ask him a question, because he could go back and look at the numbers in the latest budgets and note that CIDA's budget has been frozen for years and that significant cuts were made in the last budget. If he were to look at where these cuts have been made, he would see that they have been made primarily at the expense of African countries.

I am very pleased to learn that a building built largely with Canadian money is being used by AFISMA, but this kind of retroactive support for this African effort really leaves me perplexed. I will say no more, for I wish to remain courteous.

As for Japan, indeed, it was not a major contributor in Mali. Japan contributes a great deal to international co-operation. Mali does not have any particular historical ties to Japan, but nevertheless, Japan still gave $120 million, while Canada gave a measly $13 million.

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9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Mr. Chair, I congratulate my colleague on her excellent speech. I am pleased to congratulate one of my NDP colleagues, since I have not been too kind to them this week. But I was very happy to hear such an excellent speech.

My question has to do with the government's attitude, as expressed by the parliamentary secretary, who said that, since we have given a lot to Mali in the past, we do not need to give them more now. What is going on now? The country is experiencing a major crisis and it has been crippled by a horrible terrorist attack. And the government is saying that we will give only $13 million, because we have given a lot in the past. What kind of reasoning is that?

How can the government distance itself from a country we have invested so much in, a country with which we have many ties and that is a member of La Francophonie? How does it look when we give $13 million and refuse to work with the UN? How does that policy look?

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his excellent question. I would like to respond with a metaphor.

Imagine that we had invited people over to eat a number of times and we felt that we had a good and supportive friendship with them. Then one day, their house burns down and we give them three carrots, saying that we already fed them three months ago. That is unimaginable. We did things in the past. Now there is a crisis and we are sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. That is disturbing.

It is even more disturbing that Canada is not showing solidarity and support for a country in need that is experiencing crisis after crisis, and also that our international reputation and influence are losing ground.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

NDP

Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to take advantage of the fact that my colleague has the floor to ask her to talk some more about Rights and Democracy.

For 20-odd years, Mali was an example of democracy for neighbouring African countries. This government's band-aid solution of simply throwing money at the situation is not really a long-term solution, and it clearly demonstrates the government's unwillingness to take long-term action in a region that is so crippled by humanitarian crises.

How can Canada play the role that it has always played—or, rather, that it played until the Conservatives came to power—and bring democracy back to Mali so it can once again become an example for so many African countries?

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Chair, yes, Mali has had difficulties and crises. It is also a country where the people have often taken charge of their own fate and tried to hold national consultations. But this country faces tremendous challenges. It is a large and extremely poor country with a deep divide between the north and the south. It is very complex. And that is the key point because not only is there is a lack of will, but I get the impression that there is also a lack of understanding.

I will go beyond the member's question and not speak exclusively about Mali. If we invest in promoting democratic institutions, we can often prevent or minimize conflicts. A small investment in an organization such as Rights and Democracy, which was internationally recognized, paid significant dividends in preventing these conflicts, social issues and security issues. And these security issues could potentially affect all of us. They need to be prevented.

Whether we are talking about foreign affairs, international co-operation or some other issue, this government does not seem to understand the concept of prevention.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Chair, given that whenever the government announces new money, we pretty well need to have the PBO, the AG and KPMG certify that it is in fact new money. Also given that the CIDA budget has been on a steady state of decline from about $5 billion to $3.5 billion now and given that the minister has to my knowledge not received an order-in-council that this is fresh money, it therefore follows the new money that has been announced is not actually new money, that it has come from somewhere. I suggested to the parliamentary secretary that it was actually coming out of the frozen money that was held back from the current government in Mali.

When the parliamentary secretary says this is new money, does the hon. member believe her?

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Chair, it really depends on how we define new money. I do not think that any money has been added to CIDA's budget to do that. My understanding from CIDA's official briefing is that this money comes from the humanitarian fund within CIDA. Therefore, it is an envelope of money which is there waiting and the minister can take money in that pool. No money has been added to the CIDA budget to my understanding for the $13 million.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Ajax—Pickering Ontario

Conservative

Chris Alexander ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Chair, it is an honour to be part of tonight's debate. We on this side are all delighted that it is happening at this time, so soon after the international community has seen some success in its efforts to support Mali in restoring legitimacy to the authority of a government over all of its territory, and particularly in the north.

I would like to touch on two aspects of the crisis Mali is facing. First is the root of the matter, how we got here, the back story, who is a threat to Mali and through Mali, to all of us. Second is the question of the military imperative that is now being met, in part by French forces in support of Malian forces, and increasingly by African forces, which all along wanted to take the principal role and were authorized to take the principal role under last December's U.N. resolution. They are filling in behind French forces as progress continues.

On the root of the matter, it is important to go back some time to remind ourselves just where these terrorist extremists organizations that finally ended up in northern Mali came from. The story begins with a once upon a time, almost, recollection that one now needs to reach back toward in 1988.

Once upon a time there was a rabble rouser, an extremist called Osama bin Laden, who brought a group of friends together in Peshawar, Pakistan in the summer of 1988. Some hon. members here were not even born then. He decided that contributing to jihad in Afghanistan was not enough, that he was going to find an organization that would go to Kashmir, that would go anywhere in the world, that would attack not just the Soviet Union, but the United States. He called it al-Qaeda. He spent five years at that time in Pakistan.

We will recall that soon thereafter he felt the call to go back to Saudi Arabia. He was in Saudi Arabia for three years. He offered the services of al-Qaeda to the Saudi government to attack Saddam Hussein at that time. Of course, he was declined. He was actually banished from Saudi Arabia. He went on to Sudan for four years where he hatched other plots. He tried to kill President Mubarek of Egypt and eventually got the call to go back to Afghanistan, which was now under Taliban rule in 1996. There, even larger plots were hatched: Nairobi, Dar es Salaam and the USS Cole in Yemen.

I mention this story because all of these places are part of the regional equation which the interim leader of the Liberal party and all of us understand has to be taken into account when we talk about Mali, because it is part of a jigsaw puzzle. It is part of a global effort in which Canada has played a central role, to bring a non-governmental threat to heel, to empower governments to stand against the kind of threat that Mali has faced now since 2010 from al-Qaeda.

Displaced from all of these other places, al-Qaeda was on the ropes in most of these other places, even in Somalia and Yemen, and was forced to seek refuge in the wastes in some of the least hospitable areas of the world, the Sahel and the Sahara itself in northern Mali. All of us working together under a level of co-operation, with the full backing of the United Nations, which is unparalleled, certainly since the second world war, have succeeded in preventing al-Qaeda from finding a host. We have prevented it from taking over the whole state in some other part of the world, as it has tried to do in Afghanistan, as it would dearly love to do in Pakistan and as it has tried to do in other parts of the world over this 25-year-old saga.

Osama bin Laden is at the heart of the story. Obviously he has not been with us, as members will recall, since the day before we were elected to this place. Thank goodness, but that is another story. However, some of his last orders, as we now know from documents recovered in Abbottabad, were to re-establish outposts of his empire in places such as Yemen, Somalia and the Maghreb.

That is why al-Qaeda in the Maghreb is one of the big affiliates of the al-Qaeda organization and one of the few that, up until recently, did not face the kind of military pressure or security response that even Yemen and Somalia, with help from other African neighbours, have been able to offer. That is why we are talking about a threat to two-thirds of Mali. That is why we are talking about a coup in the spring of last year. It is not because al-Qaeda was threatening to take over the whole country but because of the army. Some of its most disciplined units in Mali, which had been trained in part by Canada, were unhappy that their government was not taking action and was not ordering them into battle in the north to deal with this problem.

They went too far and made what we think was the wrong political decision. They overthrew a democratically elected government. In fact, the Canadian-trained units, from the information we have, were not part of that unfortunate series of events. However, the legitimacy was sapped out of the Malian government. Its authority was further eroded and al-Qaeda took control, not alone, but with several other groups, Ansar Dine, Tuareg groups, that had tilted their way, seeing how strong they were in Timbuktu and elsewhere. The world looked on with consternation and became increasingly concerned as UNESCO World Heritage sites, Islamic treasures and mausoleums of moderate enlightened Sufi saints were destroyed by these butchers who were very happy to put people to death in summary trial but also to destroy the legacy and heritage of all humanity.

Canada's voice was raised by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and others on this side of the House. We were concerned but we were not yet able to take action because there was no consensus in the African Union, in ECOWAS or the United Nations to authorize that action. Therefore, the resolution that came forward in December was truly unprecedented. We have not seen that level of explicit authorization for combat operations, African-led but supported by the whole international community and the whole machinery of the United Nations, for many other conflicts. Certainly none of this would have happened until that resolution was passed in December.

Today, with the resolution in hand, we find that Mali faces three crises. One is a political crisis, which we hope will now be addressed with the road map and the path toward elections, and Canada applauds that. The second is a humanitarian crisis, which my colleagues, the other parliamentary secretaries, addressed and in which we have invested by building on a foundation of very generous investment and contribution over years, even decades, in good times and bad in Mali. However, the military crisis remains. There has been progress, as members on the other side have acknowledged. The largest population centres in the north are now back in government hands. The Tuareg are leaning the government's way once again as al-Qaeda pulls out of the cities and withdraws into the mountains and other difficult to reach places.

However, what will they do? Who will reach out and touch them there? What will the capacity of the Malian government be to bring them to justice? We still do not know. Much depends on investments to come and much depends on the AFISMA mission. It has a complex demanding mission, to contribute to building Malian defensive security forces and support national authorities in recovering areas in the north under the control of terrorists and extremist groups. That means combat if necessary. As well, it is to help stabilize the country and consolidate state authority, support authorities in protecting the population, contribute to a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and the return of displaced populations, protect personnel and the mission, and it has only be authorized for one year.

At the request of the Malian government and in accordance with the mandate of resolution 2085, France launched a military operation on January 11.

Canada joined the international community in supporting this initiative instigated by France in order to act quickly and put an end to these attacks by Islamist groups.

Let us be clear: France acted as an African power, a country that has military resources based in Africa. The only forces that France has sent into the theatre in any African countries so far were already based in Africa.

The United Kingdom, the United States, Germany and Canada have not sent troops into combat, because we did not have the necessary resources on the ground in Africa. It is a very simple explanation.

Our support to our ally, France, is very much appreciated. We have—

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Assistant Deputy Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order, please. We have reached the end of the time allocated for this intervention.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I congratulate my colleague on the government side.

What he said is backed by research. There are many interesting facts. He definitely has a broad perspective of the situation, a perspective that is quite interesting.

He recognizes that Osama Bin Laden is no longer with us. We can all agree on that.

Perhaps we should start talking about Canada's involvement, what we in Canada have done so far, and about how our interest in Mali could be expressed.

The $13 million that we have offered so far seems very limited to me. We could do much better than that. We have close relations with Mali. We know a lot of people there. We have companies operating in Mali, and we have a lot of interests.

So far, the Conservative government does not seem to know what to do about Mali, how we could intervene and what we could do.

The member is obviously quite knowledgeable, but he did not talk about the guiding principles behind Canada's interventions in Mali. What is the purpose? Does Canada want to provide aid? Is it expected to follow the advice of other states or has it found its own way of intervening? What exactly is it responding to?

I would rather like to hear things like "we have a specific action plan for Mali".

What are we specifically trying to do in Mali, and what kind of resources will we invest? Are we going to provide more than $13 million? Frankly, that is not enough.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, of course we want to continue to invest. Of course we have invested more than the members opposite recognize or have chosen to recognize in this debate.

Up until 2010-11, Mali was the only country to receive such a large amount, $110 million a year, with the exception of perhaps two other countries: Afghanistan and Haiti. These two, three or four countries were at the top of our list in terms of our obligations for development.

Development is not something that happens overnight. It is certainly not something that can be facilitated with a government that results from a coup and lacks political legitimacy. We decided to suspend our development assistance.

I ask my colleague to name another country that has been as generous as Canada, on a per capita basis, when it comes to humanitarian assistance over the past year regarding the crisis in Mali and the entire Sahel region.

In terms of security, we continue to monitor the overall situation. We have a small group that is training armed forces in Niger. We want to facilitate participation in operation Flintlock in Mauritania, which is important in the region.

We have also made considerable investments in training the Malian army. We are no longer doing so, because that army is at war—

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Assistant Deputy Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order, please. I would remind hon. members that we have a 10-minute question and comment period. I would also remind the many hon. members I see standing to participate in the debate that they keep their comments, questions and responses to around a minute or so. It works well and more members will be able to participate.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood.

Conflict in MaliGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the hon. member's attempt to position this conflict in a wider sphere. Had he had more time, I am sure he would have gone back to the Muslim Brotherhood and the decision of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Egyptian jails to take jihad outside of Muslim lands, which is the actual origins of Osama bin Laden and that entire crew.

Therefore, the member agrees with us, I believe, that the first and foremost military goal here must be the containment and degradation of the Islamic threat, the jihad, the al-Qaeda threat. Therefore, he would also agree, as we do, that the French are to be supported in their initial efforts. However, what is curious in the government's position, and I would be interested in the hon. member's comments on this, is that the necessary second stage is the support, training and equipping of the African-led force.

Why is it that Canada is not contributing financially to AFISMA? Why has Canada not responded to the unprecedented, mandated call by the UN to equip AFISMA?

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9:55 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, as the member well knows, we have been supporting capacity-building for the African Standby Force, which is part of the African Union, since 2006. That was in line with the G8 commitment, but our contribution was actually larger on a per capita basis. AFISMA will be based on the principles established for the African Standby Force and the Economic Community of West African States, or ECOWAS, Standby Force, in which Canada has also invested, not over years but over decades.

This is important because investments today, through a trust fund or any other means, into AFISMA are not the crucial element. The crucial element is the institutional capacity of ECOWAS, of the AU, and indeed of the Malian army. We have played a role over the long term in investing in those.

Other hon. members have asked if there is a plan. There is a Security Council resolution that is about as explicit as I have ever seen for an operation of this sort. It also points to the Malian authorities, ECOWAS and the AU as the bodies that must articulate the plan. We want to support their plan and indeed France wants to support their plan.

It is not complete. Some of the African forces are very capable. They began deploying in Bamako on January 21. Give them time to spool up, to deploy to the north with the help of many allies, including France, which has the technical airlift capacity inside the country, and we will see what they can do, as they have performed effectively in Sierra Leone, in Liberia and on other ECOWAS missions.

The bottom line is that our investment here is long term, large scale and institutional. When we have had the opportunity to invest, it has taken place in accordance with our democratic principles and to ensure that human rights are upheld and abuses avoided.

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9:55 p.m.

Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, I thank my hon. colleague for his very cogent and well-thought-out speech. He takes us through what is essential history for the region.

The member knows that France was formerly a colonial government in the region, and that the French military has three bases in the region. I wonder if the member could take us through how quickly France responded to the UN resolution and how quickly Canada responded to France's request to assist.

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9:55 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, it is important to note that history matters here, because it helps to explain the extent of the conflict and the crisis, and the number of countries involved. These are places where al-Qaeda, over years, has tried to install itself. Osama bin Laden is dead, thank God. However, al-Qaeda is not yet gone.

One of our goals, which I think we all share in the House, is not just whacking people or organizations. I do not think we use that term in these contexts. It is the destruction, the elimination of al-Qaeda as a threat to Mali, neighbouring countries and the whole world.

France acted quickly. Its troops moved on January 11. France asked us, relatively rapidly, for this heavy transport, strategic transport, strategic lift, because not many countries have this kind of aircraft. We only acquired it recently. Some members opposite did not see this as a priority for Canada at the time, but we did acquire it. It helped us in Haiti and now it is helping us in Mali. We were the first country to have an aircraft on the ground in Bamako serving French forces. I think that is quite a good record.

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10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to be able to participate in this debate tonight on the security situation in Mali and Canada's role in it. It is an important debate. It is important that we are having this debate as a Parliament and are talking about executive action in this important region of the world. It is important because we were involved in helping to create a thriving democracy in Mali for some two decades, which has been an independent country for only 50 years. It is also important that there has been some consultation between the leader of the opposition, the Prime Minister and the leader of the Liberal Party to attempt to achieve a consensus as to what Canada should do and a commitment and a stipulation by our leader, the leader of the opposition, that this be brought to Parliament as quickly as possible.

This country has a spotty record of having interventions discussed by Parliament. We are not talking about committing to combat. We are talking about a commitment to military assets, so far, in the case of the use of the C-17.

We have had a developing practice, not yet a convention, although I hope we get there, of having parliamentary oversight in a stronger way over international interventions. Chuck Strahl, for example, when he was a Reform MP, actually brought a motion to the House asking for parliamentary approval before troops were put in any overseas operations. It failed. The Liberal government defeated it. Another Reform MP, Bob Mills, made a similar attempt in 1996, which also failed. However, I think at the time there was a recognition, even by the government of the day, that there was a growing sense that Parliament ought to be directly involved. We are keeping up with that tradition tonight in terms of talking about what potential role Canada might play, because we are seeing a changing situation.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs talked about the situation with al-Qaeda. As he mentioned, the situation in Mali has developed over the last year, starting with a coup last March. Some people are asking why we are helping a government that was founded on a military coup. There are two answers. The first is that we are actually attempting to help the people of Mali, as opposed to this particular government of Mali. The second point that needs to be underscored is that almost immediately upon this coup taking place, the international community, and, in particular, the regional community of the African Union and ECOWAS, the Economic Community of West African States, acted immediately to expel Mali from the African Union. They sent delegations there to seek to restore a constitutional government. They received a commitment, in fairly short order, that there would be a transitional government and eventually the development of a road map to the restoration of democracy under the constitution of 1992. That happened as a result of significant pressure at the regional level and the international level with the withdrawal of international support for the coup-led government, which almost immediately made it clear that the government would not be able to actually operate.

We were told by officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs that Mali was recognized by other people engaged in international aid and development as a country that did not use the money given to it by other countries to build up its army. Therefore, it actually had a weak army. It was weak in terms of its strength, but it may also have been weak in terms of its discipline, its record and its ability to properly carry out ethical and moral operations.

We have heard of the abuses and the allegations of abuses. However, the reality is that the army was not strong. Once the coup took place, Mali was a vulnerable state and was exposed to the events that took place. The rebellion in the north was assisted by the Islamist extremists, mainly al-Qaeda in the Maghreb and the other group of Islamist extremists that took part in that, which led quickly to a serious deterioration, which the United Nations Security Council took seriously.

In a series of resolutions, beginning last July, then in October and December, the UN Security Council took strong action to seek the support of the international community to aid the African-led International Support Mission to Mali using African troops, the support of the African Union, and the support of ECOWAS. The United Nations Security Council was acting on its mandate as the primary body for international peace and security in the world authorizing this action and was seeking the support of other nations.

The timing was interesting, because it was expected that this would take several months, up to next fall, to be ready to carry out the military mission. Events overtook the plans, which often happens. We saw the attempt by the Islamist extremists, seeing a weakness and seeing a delay, to take over the country.

We saw the response to that. France took action. We supported that action. We are now in a situation where a peacekeeping mission in Mali is being contemplated.

As my colleague from Ottawa Centre pointed out, this is something we ought to be monitoring carefully to see what kind of mandate may or may not come from this suggestion. It is obviously premature to be talking about that right now . There is no peace to keep. However, if it comes to the point where there is discussion about that, Canada should be ready to see whether we play a role and what role we might play. We need to consider what might be a substantial UN peacekeeping mission in Mali. We would anticipate this being, again, African-led. It is important to consider what role Canada might play in assisting.

That does not necessarily mean troops. I want to preclude the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairsjumping to his feet right after I finish to accuse us of suggesting that. I would encourage him, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, to read resolution 2086, a new resolution of the Security Council, which was adopted on January 21, 2013. That resolution reiterates the role of the UN in peacekeeping. It spells out, in great detail, the kind of multi-dimensional peacekeeping missions that may be mandated by the Security Council. It is extremely important. All Canadians should have a look at that, because it defines the kinds of roles nations would be asked to play in nation-building and peace-building in nations around the world.

I say that because my colleague, the hon. member for Ottawa Centre, was generous in saying that Canada was the 53rd nation in its contributions to international peacekeeping missions. We are actually the 55th nation, according to the United Nations organization on December 12. While there are some 80,000 troops engaged in peacekeeping around the world, Canada contributes 11 troops and 19 police officers. That is where we are after 35 years of being perhaps the lead nation in assisting in peacekeeping around the world. That is just on the troop side.

Ten enumerated actions may be mandated. They are spelled out in United Nations Security Council resolution 2086. It recognizes that each mandated peacekeeping mission would be specific to the needs and the situation of the country concerned. It is based on some very strong principles, including the consent of the nations involved. The mandate could include a mix of civilian police and military capabilities under a unified leadership. Those are the benefits of the United Nations involvement--

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Simcoe North Ontario

Conservative

Bruce Stanton ConservativeAssistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole

Order, please.

In fact, we are at the end of the time allocated. We will now go to questions and comments.

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

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Mississauga—Erindale Ontario

Conservative

Bob Dechert ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, I would point out to my hon. colleague that I rose very gently to my feet to ask him this question.

I listened to his speech, and I am trying very hard to understand what it is exactly the NDP wants the government to do. I am instructed by comments his colleague, the NDP critic for foreign affairs, made on January 8, on the Power & Politics with Evan Solomon show, where he said, “We would be very different. This is what the NDP would be doing right now”. That was on January 8, just a few days after the French troops landed in Mali. He said, “First of all, we'd be engaged with peacekeeping, peace-building”.

Evan Solomon said, “So, is it troops on the ground?”

He said, “We would have a conversation with our partners to say 'what can Canada do?'”

Evan Solomon said again, “but you would consider...”.

The NDP foreign affairs critic replied, “[A]ll options are on the table”.

If they are not considering boots on the ground, Canadian soldiers on the ground in Mali in some way, what exactly did his colleague, the critic for foreign affairs, mean? Perhaps he could explain it to us and enlighten the Canadian people on that point.

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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Speaker, I know that there is a bit of baiting going on here tonight by the members opposite in the government. However, I think he has to examine his own understanding of what peace-building and peacekeeping actually mean. If he looks at the various 10 enumerated actions, which I suggest he look at, he will understand that peace-building, building and assisting in strengthening the rule of law and institutions in the host countries, and helping national authorities develop priorities and strategies to address the needs of judicial institutions, police, corrections, et cetera, are some of the mandates listed there.

The fact of the matter is that the experience of peace-building is complex. It is multi-dimensional. It may involve assisting in a circumstance where, once peace has been achieved and we are not engaged in combat, we can provide assistance to have greater security in Mali.

We just talked about the inadequacies of the Malian army in terms of being able to provide security for their country. We were astonished, and I am sure that the parliamentary secretary was astonished, to hear General Ham suggest that the Americans had neglected to provide ethical training when they were assisting in training troops in Africa. I do not think we are guilty of that. I think the training provided by Canada and that can be provided by Canada has a different dimension to it.

There may be ways we can be helpful. We have to first find out if there is going to be any mission of that nature and see what Africa needs.

I know this. When we were asked to provide financial assistance to AFISMA to take over control of the operations, we said no.

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Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Chair, the curious part of this debate is the way in which the government has been tap-dancing away from financing anything to do with AFISMA. Obviously if we were a bit more involved with that initiative, as are other nations to the tune of $450 million, we might actually be into the second stage of this conflict, if you will, which is the hand-off from the French to the African-led initiative.

One of the disturbing aspects, and in the latter part of the response the hon. member made reference to it: the Malian army and how ethical training is of some concern, because we have learned to our great disappointment that if an army is not ethical, then the whole thing is lost.

I would be interested in the hon. member's comments with respect to the way in which Canada could be involved in the AFISMA initiative, and particularly with respect to the Malian army, whose casual regard for human rights may in fact be counterproductive to what we all want to see, which is peace, order and a democratic government in Mali.