Debates of Feb. 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion--Employment Insurance

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am particularly concerned about this issue because I myself fall into this category.

In times gone by, there were programs in the employment insurance system to train older workers and workers in general. There are fewer and fewer training programs.

In addition to making changes that have damaged the employment insurance system, the government is allocating less money to training programs. In my opinion, it should be doing the opposite. One of the reasons why it is no longer possible to provide as much training is that governments have, too often, dipped into the employment insurance fund. The money that belonged to workers and business people has disappeared.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Speaker, clearly this is a very important debate. I thank my colleague for her important contribution to this debate.

The Conservatives do not seem to understand the concrete impact of this reform on families, particularly in rural regions. There are real impacts in both the forestry and tourism sector. Moreover, employers will obviously have to deal with a shortage of skilled workers.

In my colleague's opinion, are the residents of her riding concerned about this phenomenon and these changes?

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, in my riding, there are bus drivers and people who work in the tourist industry. There is the Olympic Stadium and the Botanical Gardens. There are a lot of schools and people working in school cafeterias. These people need their income. Obviously, there are no cafeterias open in schools in the summer because the schools are closed. Employees of these cafeterias will be forced to reapply, year after year, for employment insurance.

Hochelaga is not a suburb for the wealthy. Residents of this neighbourhood are seeing their incomes drop, and they will not have enough money to make ends meet.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, 2012 was a dramatic year for the economies of the resource regions in Canada. My riding, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, is a good example of the harmful, even destructive impact the employment insurance reforms will have on those regions.

I want to emphasize that many changes have been made to the employment insurance system. One of them concerns the matter of suitable employment. As a result of another change, people will be asked to travel an hour from their homes to find a job that may not even be suitable, depending on their employment history.

I also want to emphasize that it is not that easy to drive an hour in the regions in winter. It could even put claimants' lives in danger. I hope that was not the Conservatives' intention, but that is debatable. People are hurting in the resource regions. There simply are not enough jobs to meet the demand from all the workers who are unemployed in winter. We cannot disregard the fact that looking for jobs when there are none causes hardship.

The fact the government wants to cancel the pilot project to address the black hole will mean that many people in the resource regions will have no income for five weeks. If we also consider the fact that there is an automatic two-week waiting period at the start of the benefit period, that means they will have no income for a total of seven weeks a year. In addition, the Conservatives have decided to cut the number of weeks for which claimants may receive benefits. As we are now seeing, the black hole will be extended. Instead of continuing a pilot project to address the black hole that will meet people's needs, they are eliminating it completely. This is really a step backward.

I want to emphasize that people finding it difficult to get a job are not the only ones who will be affected. Employers will be in trouble in the spring. If the labour force does what the Conservatives constantly say it will do—they are trying to help unemployed workers find jobs—people definitely will not find those jobs in Gaspésie, but they may find them in Alberta.

If that is really what the Conservatives want, the I have a question for them. What will happen in the spring when there is a labour shortage in my riding, when the tourism industry does not have enough employees and fishing captains are without fisherman's helpers? I can tell people who like shrimp cocktail that they will have trouble finding any because there will be no fishermen to fish for shrimp.

I want you to understand that there is a reason why people stay put in the regions where work is seasonal, and that is precisely so the tourism, fishing and forest industries can operate during the necessary seasons, which are the seasons other than winter.

Our economy will lose its labour force, families and wealth, and that loss will be irrecoverable. Even the Conservatives can understand that, if people are chased away from our ridings, that will be a serious loss. They really must consider the hardship they will be causing in the ridings in remote regions and in all the seasonal industries, which are also located in urban areas. This is an aspect they have not considered.

If there is one thing I really hold against this Conservative government, it is its almost total lack of consultation. The Conservatives draft bills with no consultation and are not prepared to amend them. They do not want to consult, either in parliamentary committees, or by going out into the regions of the country to talk to people about their bills. They just do not do it.

Here we have major changes to employment insurance, but officials tell me that Service Canada has not explained them. Yet people are supposed to know the law. It is a really difficult situation. Recipients of benefits have the right to be informed. Up to now, Service Canada has done a very bad job explaining the changes. Basically, it is up to my office to explain the employment insurance changes to my constituents. The government does not even have the brains to explain to people the changes it is making. I wanted to say the gall, but let us stick with brains. Instead, we get sound bites telling us that everything is fine. Everything is not fine.

But we can see that people in the regions are beginning to rise up in a major way. Thousands of people have taken to the streets in recent weeks. Some demonstrated yesterday and others are demonstrating today. They will continue to demonstrate in the days and weeks to come. People are very concerned by the changes being made to employment insurance and they have no choice but to take to the streets because, unfortunately, the Conservatives do not take the time to consult anyone.

I could mention the hon. member for Madawaska—Restigouche, who actually thinks that people are opposed to employment insurance reform because they cannot wait to go hunting. Frankly, that is treating people like dummies. I feel that people have the right to a little more respect than the Conservatives have shown them up to now.

In eastern Quebec, the many protests have had consequences. The minister—unfortunately for her, perhaps—had to backtrack on one aspect of employment insurance reform, the working while on claim pilot project.

In the past, people had the right to earn 40% more while on claim. As part of the 2012 reform, it was decided to abolish this pilot project and replace it with another one that would take 50% of people's income starting the moment they went to work.

The main consequence of the new pilot project is that people are refusing to work when a job becomes available. That is the complete opposite of what the Conservatives would have us believe. Instead of getting people into the labour market, they are poisoning work to the point that people are refusing to work. That is no way to run a pilot project.

If the government had bothered to consult the people, it might have seen that this was not working. Fortunately, the minister decided to backtrack following major opposition in eastern Canada. Now people who want to can go back to the old rules and earn 40% of their income.

In my riding, employers are very happy, because people are starting to go back to work. That is what we want; we want people to work. However, the Conservatives' reform will have the opposite effect. It will prevent people from looking for work. It is truly impressive to see just how badly the Conservatives botched their employment insurance reform.

Still, the fact that people now have a choice is a good thing. They can earn 40% of their income, if they want. The problem is that the Conservatives have done everything in their power to make the new pilot project for working during a benefit period as unpleasant and difficult as possible.

Instead of filling out the familiar employment insurance cards using the telephone or online system, they have to go back to the old system of manual cards, which is obviously going to cause significant delays.

As well, they have to contact Service Canada to make an informed choice. In other words: pick up the phone, dial the Service Canada number, and sit on the phone for hours. No one answers the call, because the government has cut Service Canada services to the point that there are not enough staff to meet the employment insurance related needs. It is quite simply not working.

The Conservatives are trying to save money on the backs of workers by eliminating the positions of the people who handle employment insurance cases. Unfortunately, that creates a situation in which the service is not there and people cannot figure out whether they should choose the old rules or not, because the agents do not have time to assess their cases.

I will add this: under the new rules, a person has to provide proof of all the job searches they have done. If they are spending all day on the phone, it will be hard for them to prove they have been looking for a job.

They are doing everything they can to prevent people from receiving employment insurance. We also have to wonder whether the provinces will end up stuck with a giant mess once people no longer have access to employment insurance. In other words, people will be applying for social assistance or will move to other regions of the country.

The bill is poorly drafted. All of the EI bills were designed to hurt claimants and employers. If the Conservatives had taken the time to consult people, we might have had some reasonable reforms, but they did not. What they should do now is scrap all of the 2012 EI reforms, start from scratch and seek real consultation.

I urge them to come visit my riding, to ask the people what needs to be done to provide access to jobs and to create jobs. How can we move forward with an employment insurance program that will help employers and employees? How can we create a full employment situation in a resource region like mine, where there is a shortage of jobs during the winter months?

That is what they need to do. They must consult the public. Unfortunately, the Conservatives seem completely incapable of doing so. Lastly, I recommend that they resign en masse. Then, once an election is held, we can have a real government with MPs who truly address the needs of the public.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that I agree with the hon. member. Across the country, there is a movement of young people, the unemployed and others, but not the kind of movement he is talking about. People who want to work, whether in the Gaspé region, in Ontario, in Quebec or elsewhere in the country, are on the move. They support the changes that we have introduced because they improve their chances of finding work in their preferred field.

I have a question for the hon. member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine concerning the speech by his colleague from Hochelaga. She implied early on in her statement that a job at Tim Hortons did not amount to much. But if a young person who has no experience in another field thinks that a job at Tim Hortons is suitable for him simply because he wants to work, is working there not better? Does the hon. member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine agree with me, or does he side with his colleague?

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague opposite for his question. It is a valid one.

People are on the move right now looking for work. The situation is similar to what we witnessed during the 1930s when the government sent people to work in work camps. The government hid them in the woods and hoped they would be content with quarrying rocks all day long. Perhaps that is what people should do instead of working at Tim Hortons. They should work in a rock quarry. That would be making judicious use of people with a university education.

In the meantime, maybe the member should wake up to the fact that if that happens, the opposite could come to pass, that is to say people will mobilize in Ottawa to demand genuine reforms and will continue to press their point until the government starts listening to them.

The people who are rising up today are people who need help, who want to work and who want to contribute to their region’s prosperity. Unfortunately, the Conservatives are trying to strip the regions of their wealth and to send everyone to regions where jobs are more plentiful. That is all well and good, but how will seasonal industries cope if there is a manpower shortage?

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine for his comments. He hit many of the major points.

He was wrong about one, though. He said that the pressure on the working while on claim program forced the Conservatives to fix the program. What it forced them to do is to put up a face and let on that they fixed the program. There is no fix there. People are still being disparaged and pretty much bullied into opting into the new program. However, the member made some very clear and concise points.

As to the comment that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence made, that they can take a job at Tim Hortons, a lot of people are feeding their families on those Tim Hortons jobs in the region that my colleague represents and in the region I represent. It is not students in those jobs and there are not a lot of job openings at Tim Hortons.

People are being hurt by the changes the government made. The Conservatives want to throw a cloak around it, saying that anyone who receives EI is a bad person. Would it not have made more sense just to hire more compliance officers? There are abuses in the system. Let us root out those abusers rather than treating everybody like criminals.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member of the other opposition party for his question.

May I start by pointing out that his party was the first to plunder the EI fund. What the Conservatives are doing today is wrong, but they are merely following the example set by the Liberal Party when the Chrétien government was in power. I totally blame his party for the fact that employers and workers are losing a tremendous amount of money. The EI fund is now seriously underfunded. The blame for that rests with the Chrétien government. In my opinion, the Liberal Party should apologize today to Canadians.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Avalon.

I am pleased to speak to the motion, which asks the government to reverse the devastating changes it has made to employment insurance, and further, to reinstate the extra five weeks pilot project. I support unequivocally those two points.

The changes the Conservative government has made to employment insurance are punitive, ill-conceived and penalize seasonal workers. I want to emphasize that it penalizes seasonal industries and will undermine the seasonal economy. The seasonal economy in this country is responsible for about 20% of our exports. It is responsible for a substantial amount of our GDP. In fact, those seasonal industries require skilled workers. If those seasonal industries and seasonal businesses are to survive, prosper and contribute to the Canadian economy, it has to be understood that they require skilled workers to come back.

As a farmer, I have a neighbour who runs a multi-million dollar operation. He has three full-time employees year round and there are three seasonal employees. He has had those seasonal employees coming back every year for somewhere between 10 and 15 years, depending on the person. They know how to run a $300,000 piece of equipment. They know his operation well. He does employ them sometimes two days a week in the summer, and so those folks with skills are there for him in the following season.

The punitive penalties the government is putting in place with the EI changes will affect that person substantially. The employees who work for him are penalized 50¢ on the dollar for the two days they work. That is a penalty. They want to work. They want to earn more income. They want to spend the income they earn in the economy, and the government is taking that away with these changes.

I see the parliamentary secretary frowning. I wish she would come down to meet some of those people. The fact of the matter is that if those people are penalized, they have to look at whether or not they should stay in their communities, whether or not they should leave their families, whether or not they should go to work in Fort McMurray or whatever. This does two things. It affects the community and it affects that farmer's business. It does a third thing as well. It affects the families. The economy as a whole would be injured.

These changes came in, and I look at the parliamentary secretary again, and were done without consultations with the provinces. They did not have any real hearings in this place. There was absolutely no cost-benefit analysis done in terms of the economy. I would submit that these changes not only hurt the workers, they will undermine our seasonal industries and the businesses that operate in those seasonal industries.

I find it remarkably strange, and I listened to a lot of the speakers here today, that words are being expressed by government MPs that do not in any way at all have any relationship with the reality on the ground for the people who are affected by these changes. Conservative backbench MPs are quite brave to stand up in this place and spout the government's talking points, or the ones that the parliamentary secretary allows them to spout. However, they seem very reluctant to explain these changes beyond this place.

I will reference the Moncton Times & Transcript, Saturday, February 2, 2013 with the headline, “Labour groups demand EI meetings”. It says:

A new coalition of anti-poverty and labour groups from across New Brunswick is asking the province's eight Conservative MPs to set up public meetings to explain controversial changes to the employment insurance program.

It goes on to say in the article that most Conservative MPs stayed away from any such meetings.

In fact, last Thursday night I attended a meeting in Alberton, Prince Edward Island, that was called by those concerned about the employment insurance changes. That is the riding of the Minister of National Revenue. The seasonal workers there expressed lots of concerns. However, I was shocked by the initial remarks of the chair of that meeting. The chair, from the microphone at the meeting, directed the media not to take any photographs of people who were speaking at the microphones because she had been informed by the people there that they were fearful that if their photographs were taken, HRSDC might retaliate against them in some way.

This is Canada. People should not be operating out of fear in this country, but that is what they are doing. We hear it all the time from people on the phone who call in to our office.

The parliamentary secretary laughs, but this is no joking matter. The fact of the matter is that this is what people are saying on the phone to us.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order, please. There will be a questions and comments period following the speech. If members would like to pose or make comments about the hon. member's speech, I would invite them to do so at that time and not during his remarks.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am just telling the facts. People are actually afraid.

I heard the member for Ajax—Pickering saying earlier that they can go back on the old system because the Conservatives made that change. That is true. They did make that change, but when people call in and ask to go on that system, they are encouraged not to by HRSDC staff. They are told that they will have to do paper returns, not electronic, and that it will take longer and, by golly, if there is a postal strike, their family may have nothing to eat. Those were words that were told to us by people who looked at going onto the old system, where they would do much better. I would ask the two parliamentary secretaries to think this issue through.

I said a moment ago that seasonal industries are responsible for somewhere around 20% of our exports. However, those industries are being injured by these changes because their workers are indeed affected.

I also want to mention one of the things that came up at the meeting in Alberton loud and clear. People did not know this when they applied, but for those who are seasonal workers and applied to take their Canada pension plan at 60, the way it works is that they take their monthly Canada pension plan, multiply it by 12 to get the yearly amount and divide that by 52 to get their weekly CPP. However, 50 cents on the dollar of that CPP has been drawn back. That is unacceptable, but that is what the Conservative government is doing to seasonal workers. It is even taking the pension that they paid into away from them.

Just as bad, for people who are on parental leave, for example, nurses who are going in to work a four-hour or six-hour shift to keep their licence up, help the hospital out and keep their skills up so that when they go back to work in the health care system they can hit the ground running, they are having 50 cents on the dollar of their parental leave clawed back. These are the punitive penalties that we are seeing.

The five week pilot project that was mentioned a couple of times is being taken away without any economic analysis whatsoever. It is penalizing people further and leaving families without incomes for an additional five weeks when they are probably already without incomes for another four or five weeks. It will probably force some onto the welfare system. However, there was no need to do that. There was money in the system. Why did the government not hold hearings on the consequences of what these decisions would be?

I submit, they must reverse these decisions and reinstate the five-week pilot project.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments by the member opposite, but I would like to inform him about what is being said in my riding of Simcoe—Grey. I have a very large seasonal industry, in fact several, whether apple growers, potato growers, or the large tourism industry with the ski resorts of Ontario. They are all pleased about these changes because these better connect people with local jobs. The changes provide opportunities for people to stay local and utilize their skills so they do not have to move away.

The member really just wants to fearmonger. He wants to put in the mindset of Canadians things that are simply not true. I was in Prince Edward Island two weeks where I held a series of round tables. Every person who raised the issue wanted clarification, and once clarified, as opposed to being fearful, they were pleased with the changes and were going out to talk to their colleagues. Those are the facts. That is what happened in Prince Edward Island two weeks ago.

Why does the member opposite continue to want to disparage Service Canada personnel, those people who are so professional in trying to help better connect Canadians with jobs? Why does he not go out and provide Canadians with opportunities to better connect with jobs, as opposed to fearmongering? What is he going to say to those Service Canada professionals in his area where they are doing such a fabulous job?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I talk quite often to the professionals who work for Service Canada in Prince Edward Island. They do a good job. They are trying to help out. They are stressed and frustrated. In fact the office in Montague was closed by the government. It has closed 99 out of 122 offices across this country. I am pleased if the member is hearing good things in her riding about the changes. That is a wonderful thing, but this is a huge country. We have many regions, many different industries and seasonal industries that differ across the country. In Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec and northern Ontario, the changes are not working.

Accommodate the changes, parliamentary secretary, that people need.

The changes that have been made are punitive and penalizing. The government had no consultations whatsoever and I would love to know whom she talked to in Prince Edward Island. Was it the member for Egmont, because certainly the people I am hearing from have an entirely different story.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my riding has had some of the highest unemployment over the last number of years and the lack of consultation has been tragic, as the member noted, because it is one of the key factors. In Essex, just outside my area, the lack of consultations on the beyond the border agreement is potentially going to lead to the closure of three canning facilities, and hundreds of farms will go as well because of that situation.

I would like the member to talk more about the agricultural element. We have been to Washington together a number of times to argue for improved services and improved programs. These cuts are going to significantly hurt those people. I would like the member to expand upon that, please.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, indeed, the agriculture industry is seriously affected, some commodities more than others. We have three major industries affected by these changes in my province: fisheries, agriculture and tourism, all of them seasonal industries that shut down at about the same time.

In terms of the cash crops and potato industry, when they shut down after harvest they do require workers some time over the winter months. It might only be for a day or two a week. However, the way the changes have been made, when someone goes back for that one day's work, their income from that day is clawed back 50¢ on the dollar off their employment insurance. Under the old system they were allowed to make $75, which was a good thing. It contributed to the economy, helped the individuals concerned and helped the families. They wanted to go to work, but now people are afraid and asking if they can be paid in cash. Employers cannot do that either. It is illegal.

It is forcing people out of the region. They are saying that their families cannot survive. That is the impact this is having on the seasonal industries in my province.

I would submit to the parliamentary secretary that maybe she could go to the provincial report done by the Progressive Conservatives and the Liberal government, which is very much against these changes.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House and support this motion on employment insurance. Coming from a rural part of this great country, I realize how important this is to so many seasonal workers. I have thousands of fish plant workers in my riding and they depend on employment insurance to help them get through the winter season.

This is not a program they want to be on; it is just in the nature of where they live in this country of ours. That is why we are standing up for this. The current government has no interest whatsoever in the EI program. That was easily seen when the minister said a few years ago that she did not want to make the EI system too lucrative. I can tell the House that what these employees are getting while on EI is far from lucrative.

Really galling is the fact that during the debate when the minister introduced these new measures, she said there was nothing to worry about because the changes would only impact about 1% of those on EI. That statement itself was totally false and misleading. That 1% on EI meant that it would only impact about 5,000 people, but, guess what? It does not impact 5,000 people. It impacts tens of thousands of people. That is what has people really upset and worked up. They cannot believe anything the government says when it comes to EI.

Whether an employer or employee, when people are working there is one class they pay into equally based on what they make, that being the EI system. Now the government wants to make three different classes of people who would draw upon this particular system, which makes no sense. It makes people feel degraded. It is bad enough when people lose their job, but now they will be thrown into one of three classes of recipients for employment insurance.

The restructuring of these pilot projects was not necessary. The existing pilot projects were there for six-plus years and were working fine. They were addressing some of the concerns. They were working well. People knew what they could do. The member for Malpeque just gave the example of someone working while on a claim, who could keep 50% of what he or she made. The government had taken away these disincentives to work.

I would also elaborate on the comment by the member for Malpeque on people taking cash under the table. That is one of the reasons these pilot projects were created in the first place, in order to remove the incentive for businesses to pay cash under the table. Now we are reverting back to that. It is like going back 10 years because businesses will pay people cash under the table if they cannot find employees. That is wrong and it should not be supported.

The government wants to catch the people who are defrauding the system. However, the power was already there. The recipients had to seek employment and were called upon at times to produce proof of where they had sought employment. The system was there and was working fine. Now the Conservatives are saying there is a group of people out there, the seasonal workers, whom they want to go out and attack and make them drive an hour or an hour and a half to work at some minimum wage, low-paying job at McDonald's. The minister herself said that these people need to go and work at McDonald's, which is absolutely deplorable.

One of these changes that really gets me is that making the review tribunal process more difficult. There is a tribunal out there. When things happen and people are denied EI they are given a fair hearing and a fair shake at the review tribunal. Now the Conservatives would be cutting out all of the local review tribunals across the country and the local knowledge, the people who know the circumstances that these employees are in, and moving it all to Ottawa. It is great to move everything and centralize it here in central Canada. However, it will be tough for us to represent those people who come before the tribunal themselves to make their case.

I have one person in my office who works on EI appeals for me and goes to the review tribunal and the board of referees. It is a lot of work. He puts a lot of effort into representing my constituents. I do not know what I would do without him because he is essential in helping these people navigate through the confusing tribunal process. However, now we are not going to do it on the ground in Newfoundland. People will not be able to go and represent themselves. It will all be done here in Ottawa.

This is not the government's money; the employers and employees pay into the fund themselves. The government did not consult with Canadians when it made the changes. Governments, over the years, squandered the EI surpluses away. Right now, in our province, more training money is needed to help people retrain and get them into the new megaprojects and the growth that we are experiencing in Newfoundland. The government is not putting any money at all into training.

It is a long way, an hour and a half, to drive for a minimum wage job. These people want to work. They would love it if the fish plant in their community were open year round, but that is not always possible because the government sets the opening and closing dates of the fisheries. It is not possible for them to work in the fish plant all year around. It is very hard, labour-intensive work. These employees work very hard when they are in the fish plant in the fishing season.

When employers have good paying seasonal jobs in seasonal industries, it is important that they can rely on their employees to do the job. I have an example of a bus company in my riding. The owner is one of the hardest working individuals I know. He works hard making sure he has a successful bus company. He has a fleet of buses and depends on the seasonal or tourist nature of the work. He needs good bus drivers. Just recently, he had one of his bus drivers, who was a seasonal employee, taken away from him. Service Canada called the employee and said there was a job for him and he had to go and take that job.

Whether for a week, two weeks, or a whole season, that takes this employee away. The owner had spent $15,000 training that bus driver. It is not possible to just pull someone off the street to drive a motor coach. The government says it wants to help business survive and that it is going to help struggling businesses, yet this employer just spent time and money investing in a good quality bus driver and now that bus driver is gone. Now this small company has to start all over again. It will have to invest another $15,000 in another seasonal employee. What is frustrating is that sometime during the winter season he might get the odd call for a motor coach to take a group somewhere, and he cannot call that employee up because he has been taken away.

One of the things the member for Cape Breton—Canso has been saying is that these employees are being encouraged not to work in this pilot project. I have an example of an employee who worked at a fish plant. I will try to keep the story fairly short, but she worked there for 34 or 35 weeks and did well. Then she went and collected her employment insurance for a week. Then she was called back to work for a whole week and did not receive any EI at all. Then she went back on EI to finish off the season. She called the other day and wanted to revert back to the old system of EI pilot project, which she thought she would be able to do because the government said she would have the choice to go back to the old system. She was denied the opportunity to go back to the old system. Why? It is because when she was working while on claim, she did not collect. If an employee does not collect, he or she does not qualify to go back to the old system.

The government likes to say that the economy is fragile. Yes it is. The fishing industry is fragile. This year she may not have an opportunity to go back for a full week's work. It might be for only one or two days. However, the government will not let her go back to the old EI system. It is absolutely ridiculous. It is sad that this is happening.

There is confusion out there. We have had meeting upon meeting with fish plant workers in the riding who are so concerned that these EI changes are so detrimental to their work.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. It is a pleasure to add my two cents and my experiences to this EI debate. I would welcome any questions.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague on his speech. I would like to hear what he has to say about the positions taken by our Conservative colleagues a little earlier when we were debating the NDP motion. Some Conservatives had the effrontery to say that it is not at all to put downward pressure on workers' salaries or standards of living, though the entire system is punitive.

Telling people about available jobs is one thing, but this reform is a systematic beating. If you are a bad guy without a job, you will get 90% of your former salary. If you use the system again, you will get 80% of your former salary. If that does not work, you will get 70%. After that, you get nothing except welfare, meaning that the provinces are going to be paying the unemployed.

How can they seriously claim in this House that the reform is not anti-labour and anti-social and that it is not going to make Quebeckers and Canadians poorer? I would like to hear my colleague's comments on that.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely it will hinder the lives of people in the country. It is tough when people leave a low-paying job and then they are expected to find a job that pays even less. They are then pushed onto the social assistance rolls.

The government is downloading these responsibilities to the provinces. There is really no need because the EI system is not bankrupt. It is well funded by employees and they need it at this time.

Where this is going is punitive. It is a pilot project that is regressive to the EI system.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the presentation of my colleague from Avalon, although he referenced that people could work at McDonald's. I know in a lot of areas I represent, there are 50 volunteer fire departments and only one McDonald's in my entire constituency. In rural communities a lot of these low-paying jobs do not exist outside the season.

When the premier of a province, Pauline Marois, met with the Prime Minister, what did she speak about? She spoke about EI. Premier Ghiz is supported by the other two major parties in P.E.I. They have been very active in opposing these EI changes.

Could he at least share with the Conservatives some basic math? As one example, there is the change on working while on claim. I cannot believe they have not figured this out yet. Suppose people get called in to sort potatoes on a farm in P.E.I., they come in at $10 an hour and work an eight hour shift and that is their additional money. Under the old system, they were able to keep that $80. Under the current system, they now get clawed back $40. We can throw in transportation on that. It is eight hours of work for $40.

It is punitive. Does my colleague understand just how punitive it is? Workers are being bullied to go into the new system. Hence they are being put in a position where they have to make the choice not to take that work, or it has to be paid under the table.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I have an example in my constituency, where three people are refrigerator workers in a fish plant. Three workers keep that fish plant going all season long. All three are employed for the full season. In the off season and in the slow part of the season, one of them can come in and do one day's work. Another can come in on another day and the other on another day.

If one person comes in to work and loses money, then the next person comes in and loses money as well. It makes no sense. The math does not add up. Then the worker is told that he or she can go work at an ice rink in St. John's. Now that person has to travel two hours to an ice rink to do that same one hour of work.

The system was working. The three individuals got their one day's work and were able to keep what they made. Now each worker is getting wages clawed back.

The system is not there to help these employees get through tough times.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise and add my voice, and the voices of my constituents, to this important debate.

First, this is the issue that takes the most time of my staff in my office. People are calling, raising concerns, and it is not just employees, not just people who are looking for help from the system, but it is also employers.

We heard recently from the owner of a paving company in Dartmouth who, as other employers have said, was concerned about the fact that the measures being brought in by the government were literally driving seasonal workers out of our region of Atlantic Canada.

That is affecting this business owner. It affects fishermen, boat owners, owner-operators who operate a few months of the year. It affects tourism owners and operators in Nova Scotia, in Atlantic Canada and in fact throughout the country. It affects people in the tourism sector because our tourism sector is seasonal. It affects people in the agriculture sector. In other words, it affects the whole economy of Atlantic Canada.

What many of us who have talked with our constituents, governments and others in our provinces and in our constituencies cannot understand is why the government, which claims to not want to do any harm to the economy and is focused 100% on the economy and making things prosperous, would bring in measures like this that are devastating the economy in one region of the country, in particular, Atlantic Canada.

It is happening without consultation with employers and with premiers. The premier of Nova Scotia has expressed his disappointment and, frankly, his disgust at the lack of consultation on this issue.

We, in Atlantic Canada, in Nova Scotia, have a seasonal economy. There is no doubt about that. Whether it be in the fishing industry or for seasonal companies like this paving operator, they depend on people in the community being available when they are needed. They train them and invest money in them because they are there on a regular basis.

The owner of the paving company told us that he trained his workers to ensure they did not get injured on the job. If they are not there, then he has to invest in more training every year for the new employees, if he is lucky to find them.

I have heard the same concerns raised by owner-operators in the fishing industry, in the lobster industry. It is a very dangerous, if not one of the most dangerous, occupations we have. The people who are there are concerned about the lack of training for issues like health and safety.

Before I go much further, I will be sharing my time with a colleague to be mentioned later.

One of the first calls I received was from a fish boat captain who was concerned about the health and safety of the crew he had on his boat. He has the same people every year, and has had for many years. People who have ever been on a boat when they are out fishing for lobster know it is fast moving, it is chaotic and it is dangerous. If people do not know what they are doing, then there are very serious health and safety concerns.

This skipper said that this would mean he would not only be potentially putting everybody in the boat at risk, because he would have people who perhaps were not as well-trained as they should, but he would be incurring additional costs every year in order to train these employees.

That is what the operator of the paving company said when he called our office. That is what we have heard from farmers. That is what we have heard from tourism operators, operators of inns, restaurants and other seasonal activities.

What the government has done is add a greater burden onto the backs of small businesspeople who are trying to cobble together a living, who are keeping our communities in rural Canada, in rural Atlantic Canada in this case, which is what I am focused on. Not only is the government focusing its attention to bring down unemployed workers to, in effect, depopulate places like Atlantic Canada, not only attacking unemployed workers, but it is also attacking small businesspeople in communities throughout Atlantic Canada.

People are asking me to try to find out why the government, which says it is pro-business and pro-economy, is picking winners and losers. Why has it decided that Atlantic Canada, small businesses, seasonal industries, will be losers under the Conservative government?

That was not part of the Conservatives' election campaign in 2011. They did not tell small businesspeople in Atlantic Canada that they were coming for them. They did not tell the unemployed that they were coming for them. They did not tell seniors that they were coming for them. However, that is exactly what they have done with these measures. All the measures they have brought in, as they deal with employment insurance, are penalizing workers and small businesses. There is no question in my mind that is wrong.

Do members know what has been going on lately? I have been increasingly getting calls in my office from people who cannot even get through to the 1-800 number. People who are trying to follow these rules, who are recognizing that they are going to be punished and they are going to be punished more if they do not follow the rules, cannot even get through to the employment insurance office, to Service Canada. People are calling by the half-hour, day in and day out, to try to get through.

What do these people get? They get a message that says to call back at a time when there is less call volume. The people who have called my office have said that they have done that, that they have called early in the morning, that they have called at the end of the day, but it does not seem to matter.

I have spoken with half a dozen constituents directly who have indicated to me that it took them a week in one case and a week and a half in another case to get through after calling persistently hour after hour.

Constituents of Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, people in the fishing industry who have talked to me, people in Atlantic Canada who have raised concerns with me have asked me why the government has attacked unemployed workers. I have been asked why it has attacked small businesspeople, in particular, the seasonal industries.

Why is the government trying to depopulate Atlantic Canada? Why has it decided that the prosperous Canada that it says it is trying to build will not include Atlantic Canada?

The people in my constituency, the people in Nova Scotia and the people throughout Atlantic Canada want some of those answers from the government.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I sat and listened to the member opposite speak about what he believes is happening in the employment insurance program. I encourage the member opposite to state the facts as opposed to creating this mythology of what he thinks is occurring. He should read the facts of what is actually happening.

In ridings like my own, where people have read the facts, where they know exactly what is going on, they have come to realize that this is an excellent program and these are great changes. It better connects Canadians to jobs in their local area so that they have opportunities.

I would like to ask the member opposite a simple question. Has he gone to www.workingincanada.gc.ca and looked at the great tools that are available so that he can tell his local constituents exactly how they can better connect themselves to a local job, because that is what our government has done? We have created 920,000 net new jobs through tools exactly like this. Does he even know about this website? Has he instructed his constituents to consider looking at it?

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that was an interesting question and it goes to the other issue that people raise with me when they call. They ask me why the government thinks that working people in Atlantic Canada are lazy. They ask me why the government thinks they are all crooks. They ask me why the government thinks they are ignorant and that they cannot and do not want to work, that they do not want a job. I have told these people who have raised these questions with me that the government tells us that each and every day. It tells us that the people of Atlantic Canada do not want to work, that unemployed Atlantic Canadians are engaging in fraud, that they are bad people, that they need to go out west somewhere in order to find a job and that, if the people of Atlantic Canada are not able to get answers to the questions they have because they cannot even get through on the 1-800 number, it is because they are not trying hard enough or they simply do not understand.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like the hon. member to talk about the repressive aspect of this reform.

This policy does not encourage employers to increase salaries or provide better working conditions. It encourages them to offer lower salaries, salaries equivalent to 70% of workers' previous salaries. It requires job seekers to accept jobs at 70% of their previous salary.

What does the hon. member think? Where is this taking us? We know that household debt is increasing and salaries are decreasing. So, what is the current situation and what does the future look like for his province?