Debates of March 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion--Senate

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I neither believe that the Senate is necessary, as the former Liberal member indicated, nor do I believe that it is without value, as the NDP has been indicating.

There have been reports such as “Out of the Shadows At Last” on mental illness, which was commissioned in the Senate, the Kirby-Keon report, as it was also known. I think of the value in that and what it has meant to so many Canadians. It was an important piece of work that the Senate completed. There are many important works that the Senate completes.

However, I also believe that the Senate is stuck in 1867, and that is not acceptable. It is not acceptable in a modern context. I have always felt that if the Senate would not accept changes, if it did not become more accountable, if it would not become more democratic and if Canadians do not have a say in who represents them, then it must be abolished because I do not believe it is necessary. I think it can provide great value, but I think that is the challenge for this place.

I would say to the members of the NDP simply this. They have put forward a motion, and I think many Canadians hold its view, but are they prepared to do the work to get the provinces onside to make that motion happen, or is this simply grandstanding here in the House of Commons today?

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

The answer is simply yes, Mr. Speaker. An NDP government would be a fully competent and capable government that believes in engaging other orders of government in this country in mature discussion about our future as a country and principles of governance. We are a party that believes, unlike the Liberals, that one can focus on more than one issue at a time. A fully competent and capable NDP government is a government that would have discussion about constitutional issues with Canadians, about the fact that we have an unacceptable and, in the terms of the member, undemocratic institution in the Government of Canada that we need to abolish, while, at the same time, focusing on the economy of this country and creating jobs for Canadians.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I find my colleague's attitude here this morning a bit odd. He seems to think that he is the only one who knows the absolute truth, that he is the only one who can walk and chew gum at the same time.

But let us focus on the debate. I think it is great that we are talking about the future of the second chamber, but certain realities need to be taken into account. The member also needs to answer certain questions, since he can walk and chew gum at the same time. The reality is that if we want to abolish the Senate, we also need to take action regarding other existing legislation. Abolishing the Senate would also mean abolishing the right to veto.

Is he prepared to take away Quebec's right to veto? Is he ready to abolish that legislation, too?

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as per the motion, this is about starting a process to abolish the Senate that involves consultation with the provinces and territories. Clearly, the first step would be to have those consultations and fully canvass the views and concerns of the other orders of government in this country.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if I am correct, my research has told me that some four provinces of this country had senates at one time and abolished them. I think if we went to the citizens of those provinces, they would tell us they have absolutely no memory whatsoever of there being a senate nor any loss in terms of the political governance of those provinces. Clearly, there are many examples where this can happen.

What I want to focus my question on has to do with the concept of equality. When the Reform Party began, it spoke of triple E Senate reform, which was elected, effective and equal. I hear the Conservatives talk a lot about electing senators and trying to make the Senate effective, but the issue of equality seems to have dropped off the radar. I come from British Columbia, which has 6 senators and 4.5 million citizens. Prince Edward Island has 140,000 citizens and 4 senators.

I ask my hon. colleague what he thinks about an institution that not only has no democratic legitimacy but also enshrines a very lopsided and unequal distribution of political weight in this country.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would say the inequality, in fact, goes to the lack of democratic legitimacy of the institution. I would not distinguish between those two principles. A fundamental concept under democracy is one of at least equity and equality. What the member raises is the fact that the promises made by the Conservatives in 2006 when they formed government have been broken and they have dragged this out while they have put 58 of their own patronage appointments into the Senate. Their proposal about democratic reform has proven not to be a serious proposal.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as always, I am proud to rise in the House as the elected member of Parliament for Timmins—James Bay, chosen by the people of James Bay to come and represent them in the House of Commons.

Listening to the discussion this morning about the motion to address the need to begin the process of abolishing the Senate, I remembered, because of my Conservative colleagues, that there was a time when we were actually talking about reform and bringing this anachronism into the 21st century. The Conservatives promised reform. However, they agreed that if they were not going to get reform, they would abolish it, because it is a system that has proven to be deeply entrenched against any form of reform.

Unfortunately, our colleagues in the Conservative Party seem to have fallen off the straight and narrow and have fallen into the cesspool of rum bottle politics in Ottawa. They have gone the route of the Liberals in terms of filling the Senate with a lot of very dodgy appointments: friends of the party, hacks, and people who flip pancakes at Conservative fundraisers. In seven years, they have not come forward with a real plan for democratic reform in the Senate. Therefore, we get back to the original question of abolition.

My colleagues in the Liberal Party are very angry this morning, as they are about any efforts to hold their friends in the system of unaccountable, unelected friends of the party to account.

What we are talking about is not an obscure constitutional debating point. What we are talking about goes to the very heart of democratic accountability in Canada in the 21st century, that being whether a group of people who believe that they have a certain amount of privilege and a lack of accountability should have the right and the power to block the duly elected members of this House, and in doing so, to block the democratic will of the country.

We have to place this motion in the context of the times. There is growing anger and frustration among Canadian citizens, who see the Senate refusing to show any level of accountability and senators thumbing their noses at the Canadian people and showing absolute contempt. Then we are told in the House, by the Liberals, especially, and the Conservatives that as we are not able, as democratically elected members, to hold senators to account. They are somehow above us. I do not believe that this is a principle that any democratic country should accept.

Today the level of frustration has reached a point that we have to, as Parliament, hold those members to account. We have Senator Anne Cools using her position as an unelected senator to stop the Parliamentary Budget Officer from providing information to democratically elected members of Parliament, and by extension, the Canadian people. It is unacceptable. She said that it is a breach of her privilege. That is what senators believe they exist on: their privileges. She called it constitutional vandalism. I will say that there are constitutional vandals, and they are in the red chamber.

Over her career, Senator Anne Cools has been erratic and has said some pretty bizarre things. However, what the Canadian people need to know is that we cannot get rid of her. She is there until she is 75, whether she shows up for work or not, just like the famous Senator Andy Thompson of Mexico. For seven years the guy never showed up for work. Canadians are not even able to remove them. Therefore, Senator Anne Cools can interfere with the work of democratically elected members of Parliament, and that seems okay, because that is her privilege.

Pamela Wallin, who apparently lives on Palmerston Avenue in Toronto, claims to represent the people of Saskatchewan. Pamela Wallin, who is on the board of directors of an oil sands development company, stood up to help defeat a bill that was brought forward to deal with catastrophic climate change. It was passed by the duly elected members of the House of Commons, and she bragged about killing the bill. She said it was a nuisance. Of course, it was nuisance to her. The little people of this country are probably a nuisance to her. However, she gets her perks paid for by the little people who are a nuisance to her.

The situation is unacceptable. We have not even touched on the fact that the senators sit on the boards of major corporations, the banks, the financial sector and private health care interests, and they get to participate in debate and change laws in the country while serving their friends in private industry.

This is not an institution that went wrong somewhere along the way. It was founded on wrong principles, and it needs to be held to account.

One hundred and forty some years ago, when Canada was establishing its system of governance, the mutton chops who met in Prince Edward Island looked to the House of Lords in England. The House of Lords was set up because England had its long history of class exclusion and hereditary rights. The British Parliament was set up with the House of Lords above the House of the common people. The language itself speaks volumes. They needed a check and balance on the rights of the common people.

For people back home watching this, the common people are Canadians. We did not have a history of peerage and an aristocracy, so what they decided to come up with was the Senate for the check and balance. In some ways they chose something worse. Rather than what the British had, with its lords and men with titles, the Fathers of Confederation decided to pick cronies and friends of the party.

I think of G.K. Chesterton who, comparing England to Ireland, said that what was worse than being priest-ridden was being squire-ridden. However, Canadians have an even worse choice. We are crony-ridden. That is not a balance for legislative approval in a modern democracy.

It is interesting when we see the young tour guides taking people around and showing the Senate. They are fed the fiction that they are supposed to tell people about all the work the Senate does. They say that one of John A. Macdonald's founding principles was that the Senate was there to protect the rights of minorities. That sounds good, but John A. Macdonald was not talking about linguistic minorities, first nations, or new Canadians. What John A. Macdonald said was that we must protect the rights of minorities, because the rich will always be fewer in number than the poor. That was the founding principle. It was a system set up to protect the powerful.

Here we have today the so-called seven years of Senate reform that can be summed up in Pamela Wallin, Mike Duffy and Patrick Brazeau. That is what the Conservatives have given us. It is like a bad reality TV show. If we look at the goings on in the Senate, it is like Les Bougon. We are going around in our Armani suits. Instead of Honey Boo Boo, we have Pamela Boo Boo. At least Honey Boo Boo has something we could actually think is kind of cute once in a while.

What we are seeing with the senators right now is a scandal. It actually cuts to a constitutional issue. They were chosen by the Prime Minister. He has told Canadians that he can personally vet all their residency requirements, yet Pamela Wallin has a health card for Ontario. She is either a resident of Ontario or the people of Ontario are somehow being defrauded. If she is a resident of Ontario, she is not eligible to say that she is a resident of Saskatchewan. It is not good enough to say that her heart is in Saskatchewan or that she goes back to Saskatchewan. She is either a resident or she is not.

The same is true for Mike Duffy. First he lived behind door number one down in Cavendish. He had not been there in months. Then it was door number two in Charlottetown. Now it is door number three, back in Kanata. He is paying the money back, but he did not rip the Canadian taxpayers off. He just did not understand the form that said that his primary residence was within 100 kilometres of Ottawa. He did not understand that, and every single year, he ticked the box and walked out with $20,000. We see the same with Senator Patterson, of no fixed address.

The senators, all of these men and women, because they tell us that they are eligible for the money, get to collect the money. That is the frustration. They are taking money from taxpayers. They have an institution where it is their word, their pinky swear, that they are entitled to walk out the door with $20,000 in travel expenses and to represent regions they do not live in. They do not have to prove anything to the Canadian people, because they see themselves as above us. That is not a credible system for governance in the 21st century.

We need to deal with the system. Senators refuse to reform, year after year. They have been defiant about it. It has to come back to the House of Commons and then to the Canadian people. If we asked the Canadian people what they would do, they would get rid of them.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in one of my last conversations with Jack Layton, he expressed outrage that the first priority of this majority government was to appoint the defeated candidates of the 2011 election to the Senate. In particular, we were talking about the candidate for Lac-Saint-Louis from the Conservative Party.

Michael Fortier had the decency to quit when he lost his election in 2008. He resigned his Senate seat and never returned.

I keep hearing from the other side of the chamber that abolishing the Senate cannot be done. In the words of Jack Layton, “Don't let them tell you it can't be done”.

Would an NDP government, in 2015, work with the provinces not only on abolishing the Senate but also on energy strategy, on developing a job strategy and on developing a policy framework for skilled trades and a training strategy in this nation, among many other things?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that my hon. colleague invoked the legacy of Jack Layton, who was a dear friend of mine. Jack never accepted that the status quo of arrogance and corruption that existed in the Senate should be allowed to stand.

We see now, in Quebec, that former Senator Fortier has come forward and has said that it is a system that is unnecessary and unreformable. Senator Fortier, Michael Fortier, when he was with the Conservatives, was a very impressive man in terms of his street smarts, his politics. I disagreed with Mr. Fortier on many things, but I am very pleased to see that one of the Conservatives' own, one of these senators, has come forward and has said that it has to go.

A number of senators are speaking up. Lowell Murray has been good on this. Hugh Segal has spoken up. We need to address this unreformed, unrepentant and under-investigation Senate.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay for his excellent speech. We need more people like him, people who are passionate and who are here to really stand up for Canadians.

My question focuses on the whole concept of representation in the Senate. I am 28, so I could not be a senator right now, because one must be at least 30 years old to be a senator. The Conservatives did not address that at all, not even in their reform proposing the creation of an elected Senate. This means that a huge segment of the population—people between the ages of 18 and 30—could vote, but they would not be able to run as candidates in Senate elections. That demographic is currently not represented in the other place because they cannot be appointed.

I would like to hear my colleague's thoughts on this, because I think we need to talk about representation in the Senate.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her excellent work on this file.

We have to expose the lie that has been repeated again and again in this House that the senators are somehow there to represent their regions. Where would the provinces be if they did not have the Conservative and Liberal senators from the Maritimes, who are saying zippo about the EI attack? Where would the people of Saskatchewan have been when the Province of Saskatchewan was fighting for equalization payments? Where would they be without those Conservative senators who said nothing on that?

It is a lie. The senators represent their party interests. They always have. That is why they are fundamentally undemocratic and have to be held to account. They are appointed by the Prime Minister, and they act as sock puppets for the party. They act as an extension of the Conservative war machine. They use the resources the Canadian taxpayers pay them and then use them for the fundraising and political army of the Conservative Party while misrepresenting themselves to the Canadian people as somehow representing the regions of this country.

One cannot show any real examples of their having done this, and it is unacceptable that taxpayers are paying for the partisan work of their bagmen, their campaign organizers and their planners.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising today to speak to the NDP opposition motion in front of us today in the House. I will read it for the benefit of people who are watching this debate. The proposed motion states:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government of Canada, in consultation with the provinces and territories, should take immediate steps towards abolishing the unelected and unaccountable Senate of Canada.

There are numerous problems with this proposal. The first problem is that in many people's expert opinion, abolition of the Senate would be a fundamental constitutional amendment, and as such would require the unanimous consent of 11 legislatures in this country, that is, all 10 provinces and the Parliament of Canada. In addition, the precedent has been set in two referenda on separation that were held in the province of Quebec, and on the referendum on the Charlottetown Accord, that not only would 10 provincial legislatures and the Parliament of Canada need to agree to abolish the Senate, but that popular referenda or one single national referendum would be required to support that decision by these 11 Parliaments. From a practical point of view, abolition of the Senate is really a political impossibility.

In considering provinces like New Brunswick or Prince Edward Island, many of these provinces entered Confederation with the condition that they would be allotted a certain number of senators in the upper chamber. This was the deal that brought Newfoundland into Confederation in 1949. It was the deal that brought Prince Edward Island into Confederation, I think it was in 1871. It was the deal that brought the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, along with the United Province of Canada, into Confederation in 1867. These were fundamental to their entry into the federation, and for the opposition members to so blithely and casually suggest that we abolish the Senate shows either remarkable naïveté or, frankly, irresponsibility.

These provinces today would likely never agree to the abolition of the Senate, by reason that it guarantees them a certain amount of representation in both the House of Commons and the Senate of Canada. In fact, as much as people may not like this point, the reality is that Prince Edward Island, with some 140,000 Canadians, has 8 parliamentarians. It has four senators in the upper chamber and four members of Parliament, and the two are inextricably linked. They are linked because the number of members in this House of Commons, from a provincial division, cannot fall below the number of senators from that particular region of the country. Therefore, why would the people of Prince Edward Island ever agree to the abolition of the Senate? They would not only lose their four parliamentarians in the upper chamber, it would put at risk the number of parliamentarians, of which they have four, in the lower chamber. In fact, they might be reduced to only two members of Parliament, or even possibly one and a half members of Parliament. The people in a province like P.E.I. are being asked, through a motion like this, to consider going from eight parliamentarians, four senators and four members of Parliament, to one and a half members of Parliament.

After thinking through the implications of this motion, members may think the proposer is either uninformed or is being irresponsible.

I could speak about New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, and I could speak about the Province of Quebec. The fact is, the Province of Quebec has long had requests for amendments to the Constitution.

Before we would even be able to address the abolition of the Senate and the Constitution of Canada, the outstanding requests that came from Meech Lake, and later partially through Charlottetown, would be at the front of the line when it comes to amending the Constitution. I do not think Canadians, either in the rest of Canada or in Quebec, want to reopen those divisive constitutional debates that we had in the late 1980s and early 1990s. There again, I think the motion is not a serious proposal for change.

Finally, with respect to why the motion is not serious and why it should not pass, the Senate is an important chamber. The ongoing present difficulties aside, the fact is that all major western democracies have a bicameral national legislature. All major democracies have two chambers in their national parliament, national congress, national legislature, national system, and there is a reason for that. Laws need to be made cautiously and passed with a great deal of review. There needs to be checks and balances in a system in order to ensure there is not undue concentration of power and that the power of the state does not run roughshod over minority rights and the rights of individuals and regions of the country.

The most important reason that the motion should not be adopted is because the Senate is an important part of this Parliament of Canada. It was set up to provide a balance to the majoritarianism in the lower chamber. We passed a riding redistribution act about a year ago that has resulted in new ridings for this country. The opposition opposed that because it does not believe this chamber should be representative of its population.

We, as a government, believe this chamber ought to be representative of the population, that each vote in each riding should have the same weight across the country. In order to offset that majoritarianism in this chamber, we have an upper chamber that balances the smaller regions of the country against the larger regions. This is the way it is with chambers in other democracies, for example, like the United States, where each state has two senators. A large state like New York, with millions of people, has two senators, and small states like Hawaii and Alaska also have two senators each. The reason for that is to offset the tyranny of the majority, as it has often been said, of the lower chamber. That is why the Senate is an important institution and that is why the Senate cannot be abolished.

The solution to the ongoing problems in the Senate that we have seen more recently is not its abolition. The solution is to make the Senate more accountable. The solution is to establish term limits for senators, who now are there to age 75, and to establish popular consultations whereby senators can be appointed by the government.

The Government of Canada has made a reference to the Supreme Court because of the questions about the boundaries. We, as a Parliament, can amend current law in Canada to bring about these two broad reforms, the term limits for senators and the popular election of senators, in a way that does not require us to reopen the Constitution. A couple of months ago, the government asked the Supreme Court for a reference as to what the bounds are in legislation for us to introduce new term limits; what the bounds are in terms of us enacting popular consultations for senators; what the bounds are for the constitutional requirements of net worth and property qualifications in the province from which senators are appointed; and, what the bounds are for the abolition of the Senate. That latter question is actually fairly clear.

There have been a number of references and rulings by the Supreme Court that, in my view, have made it quite clear that the abolition of the Senate at the very least requires a two-thirds, 50% plus 1, amendment, or the unanimous consent of all 10 provincial legislatures and the Parliament of Canada.

We hope this reference will come back expeditiously so that we as a Parliament can move quickly to enact the reforms proposed in Bill C-7, the Senate reform act. It is my hope that the court will find the time to give the Government of Canada its reference by the end of this calendar year.

That is the solution to the Senate. It is to allow Canadians to render judgment on the performance of the Senate. It is up to Canadians to elect the senators they think are best able to sit in the Senate and to decide whether to hold senators to account for their performances in their previous terms. That is exactly what this reform act for the Senate would do. This act would ensure accountability in the upper chamber, that the chamber is where the business of the nation carries on and that Canadians can have faith that laws are being verified before they are passed and given royal assent.

The NDP's motion on the abolition of the Senate is not a serious one. It is not something that any serious leader or party would propose. It is not only practically and politically impossible, but it would reopen the divisive constitutional debates and referenda that we saw in the 1990s and late 1980s. It would also, frankly, further concentrate power in the executive branch of our government to the detriment of Parliament. For all of those reasons, it is not a serious proposal. Frankly, it is a proposal to make hay while the sun shines on the current controversies in the Senate and speaks to the fact that the official opposition is not ready for prime time, not ready for government.

I could go on about the challenges the Senate has, but the reality is this. From time to time there are controversies in this chamber about particular members and ministers in the cabinet. That happens in all governments. Nobody is suggesting that we abolish this chamber because of controversies. I am not minimizing the controversies in the Senate. The reality is that the Senate needs to be reformed. There were reforms introduced in the House of Lords in the Westminster parliament. We have the last Parliament with an unelected, completely appointed upper chamber that has no popular consultations or vetting process by which senators are appointed.

It is high time for Canada, Parliament and Canadians to have an upper chamber that has term limits of nine years, as it is in the current bill, though eight years would be acceptable to many of us, and to have popular consultations or elections of senators. That is well past its due date. We need to put that in place, and put that in place quickly. Frankly, I think the government would be prepared, with the consent of all members of the House, to rapidly pass that legislation through the chamber so it can proceed to the Senate where it would be debated and passed.

That is the very important reason for why we need to achieve Senate reform. If we do not achieve Senate reform, all we are doing is delegitimizing the Parliament of Canada. Canadians have been turning out in lower and lower voter numbers in recent elections. Canadians increasingly do not trust political institutions. That has been shown in surveys over the last number of years. There was one survey recently that indicated that trend continues. We bring it upon ourselves as parliamentarians when we propose things we know are just making politics, that have no practical chance of ever being adopted into law and, further, that would weaken this institution.

I will be happy to take questions on this issue. This it is not a serious proposal from the opposition. It is irresponsible, if not naive. It shows a remarkable lack of understanding about how upper chambers have been structured around democracies of the world in order to provide a check on majoritism of the lower chamber.

There is a solution, however, to making the Senate accountable and to allowing Canadians a say in the performance of the hundred or so senators in the upper chamber, and that is to put in place term limits and to allow for the election of senators.

Instead of debating this motion on the floor of the House, what we should be doing is debating the government's Bill C-7, the Senate reform act, which will introduce those two fundamental changes into the upper chamber and ensure that the upper chamber is modernized and remains relevant for the 21st century and for Canada's democracy.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. He made some good arguments, even if we do not agree. But there is a major problem with what he said.

The Americans had the courage to consult the states and to proceed with constitutional amendments to improve their Senate. That is exactly what we are proposing that we do with the provinces. We are being criticized for trying to revisit the Constitution. It takes courage to change an institution that is suffering from institutional arthritis—if I can call it that.

He then talked about concentrating power in the executive branch of government, but it is very different in the United States. First, the executive branch is separate. In Canada, our biggest problem is that backbench government members refuse to hold ministers accountable, in committee, for example. So when debates in parliamentary committee are shut down, it can be difficult.

He can talk all he wants about responsible reform and having a debate on Bill C-7, but the Minister of State for Democratic Reform just criticized us for having too many speakers and for wanting to debate too much. The government needs to be consistent.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the NDP member for his question.

First, the move in the United States from an appointed senate to an elected senate did not take place through a constitutional amendment. To my recollection, and I could be wrong, it started organically. I believe it started with the state of Oregon, which started to elect senators. It was not a constitutional amendment.

Second, the change in the United States from an unelected senate to an elected senate is the change precisely proposed in Bill C-7, the Senate reform act, which the government would like to see pass.

The United States did not abolish the senate as a solution to the fact that the senate had previously been unelected. That is the problem with the motion of the opposition, which proposes to abolish the Senate. That is a big difference compared to going to an elected Senate.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the remarks of member for Wellington—Halton Hills were well thought out.

The member said that there was a solution, and that would be moving toward the government proposal to put in place term limits and allowing for the election of senators. I think most of us are willing to debate those issues.

However, one of the real shortcomings of the government proposal is that the Prime Minister, who has now appointed more senators than pretty near any other prime minister in Canada, senators, in my view, being more loyal to the Prime Minister than maybe even the country, is a concern.

The shortcoming of the government's proposal is that the Prime Minister has never really sat down with the other first ministers in Canada to see where they are on the issue. We are a federation. I will grant that the Prime Minister has a major leadership role to play. However, could the member tell us why the Prime Minister is so reluctant to sit down with the other first ministers of Canada to discuss this issue, among others?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first, while the abolition of the Senate, in my view, requires a fundamental constitutional amendment, in other words, the unanimity of all 10 provincial legislatures as well as the Parliament of Canada, the details of the structure and the rules that govern the Senate are the exclusive prerogative of the federal government. They are intra vires federal government. When it comes to term limits, one of the member's former party leaders moved unilaterally to reduce the term limits from life to 75 years of age. That is intra vires federal responsibility that should not involve consultations with the provinces. We have to be assertive in our area of jurisdiction federally.

Furthermore, I frankly think the Prime Minister has been a very good manager of the federation. In fact, in decades past, we have had too many of these first ministers meetings that have actually created problems rather than solved them. The current management of the federation has been exemplary and is shown in the fact that national unity is very strong, that desire for a third referendum is low and the fact that the federation is working together on a number of initiatives without having to have these high drama, high stakes first ministers meetings that frankly create problems rather than solve them.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I take exception to my friend from Malpeque who talked about some of the senators in the Senate being more loyal to our Prime Minister. That is not the case. It may be the case in the Liberal Senate where we still have that huge division with those who were appointed by Mr. Chrétien and by Mr. Martin. We remember what happened in some of the leaderships consequent to that. Certainly now the Prime Minister has shown leadership in saying that he would appoint those who were chosen by the provinces in an election.

However, that is not why I am asking the question. I have listened to a number of NDP speeches today with some regret and disappointment. A number of speakers have said that we are able to make the decisions in the House. More and more as I sit here, especially when we vote on private member's bills, the NDP stands every time and votes as a body, as one unit, not voicing their own concerns or their constituents' concerns. Those who do not support the party get banished to the back row.

Would the member give us his opinion on the importance of the regional representation of the Senate and why some of those amendments should be made rather than a discussion like we are having today?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague often has rock-solid views on these sorts of issues, having worked here for so many years and advancing the interests of his constituents, which he very strongly feels.

The fact is that the Senate is required. An upper chamber is required in order to balance the majoritarianism of this chamber. The Senate's purpose is not to represent provincial interests in the Parliament of Canada; it is to represent regional interests. Those senators who sit in the Senate are not at the beck and call of the premiers of the provinces. They do not represent the governments of the provinces. They represent regional interests. That role and function is incredibly important, whether it is through Senate committees that undertake studies or whether it is the review of legislation that passes through this chamber to the upper chamber. That balance between the majoritarianism tendencies of the lower chamber and a check on that majoritarianism through the regional representation in the upper chamber is incredibly important.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned that the democratic deficit in this place could be more urgently handled by focusing on those things that do not require opening the Constitution, such as removing the requirement for a leader to sign nomination papers and reducing the excess and unhealthy power of the PMO. However, when I look at Bill C-7, I do not see Senate reform. I see a dog's breakfast that would require the provinces to hold elections to different standards, different fundraising rules for a list of people who could be potentially appointed by the Prime Minister.

Does the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills honestly think the Prime Minister would appoint David Suzuki as a senator if the people of British Columbia put him on the list to be appointed?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the short answer is, yes, I do believe the Prime Minister would appoint Mr. Suzuki to the Senate. The Prime Minister is a democrat. He believes in democracy strongly. If the people of British Columbia were to elect Mr. Suzuki to the Senate of Canada, the Prime Minister would appoint him and I would be proud were he to sit in our caucus as a member of that caucus.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure to rise to support the motion brought forward by the very able member for Toronto—Danforth.

The motion is worth reading, if not savouring:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government of Canada, in consultation with the provinces and territories, should take immediate steps towards abolishing the unelected and unaccountable Senate of Canada.

We are talking about abolishing the Senate. This is music to my ears. We should take these steps toward making Canada a better democracy. I am very proud to be a member of a party that is pushing for such a long overdue reform. I really hope we get support from all sides of the House for the motion.

I am of view that when we talk about issues like this, we have to step back and take somewhat of a romantic view of the times we are in. Rather than focusing on the day-to-day details of the activity of life, it is important to think of this issue in the context of the historical period in which we are living.

It is important to not think about how the debate and discussion we are having here is going to be reflected in the newspapers, but how we are going to look back on this period 100 years from now. That is how we have to look at this. It is a major structural change being proposed, not for the first time in Canada. We have gone through many structural changes in the development of our democracy. We have to look at how Canadians will view our efforts today and over the coming months and how future generations of Canadians will view this.

To help with this task of contextualizing the debates read, I often like to read political biographies. I know that is probably a little boring for some, but I think it is extremely important to put this into context. I have just finished a wonderful biography written by Professor Michael Cross of Dalhousie University, who spent 10 years researching and writing about Robert Baldwin, one of the fathers of responsible government in Canada, along with his father and LaFontaine. This is the famous Baldwin-LaFontaine team that brought us responsible government.

I would advise all members to take a look at this book as we go through this debate about whether we should abolish the Senate.

A lot of people would ask why they should read a biography of Robert Baldwin, the man who brought municipal reform to Canada, the man who brought responsible government. Because it is important to see how dedicated he was to transforming Canadian democracy and to improving democracy in Canada. His triumph of responsible government means our government is more responsible to the people than to the monarchy.

If we look back at Robert Baldwin's time in the mid-1800s to the 21st century, if people from the 22nd century look back to where we are now, I think they may see people who have as much passion as Robert Baldwin, putting forward proposals such as the one today.

I will be sharing my time, Mr. Speaker.

The reforms of responsible government were achieved in a uniquely Canadian way, without revolution. That shows the value of the House, that it allows for debate and that it is where these debates should take place and that it is the institution that should make the decisions for Canada.

We need to abolish the Senate because it is proving to be shackle around the neck of Canadian democracy. Even the mighty Conservative Party, with its Reform roots, has fallen victim to its power to undermine public control of politics in our country.

The Prime Minister and his predecessors from the Reform Party and the Alliance Party have all promised to reform the Senate. Indeed, the Prime Minister described the Senate as a relic of the 19th century, a relic of the Baldwin era. In 2004 he that he would not name appointed people to the Senate.

However, I fear the Senate has the better of him and his party, to where their real passion for reform of this institution has been beaten down to where what we now have put before us, through the Senate, is a watered down bill. Surprisingly and astoundingly members on the other side of the House are defending the Senate, calling it a valuable institution. If I had heard that 10 years ago, I would have thought I was dreaming.

After tabling several bills for Senate reform that all have gone nowhere—and I have to say mainly due to lack of effort—the Prime Minister has now appointed 58 senators.

If the originators of this western Reform movement—then Alliance and then eventually merged with the Progressive Conservatives—had stood up on the podiums during those times and said they promised to defend the Senate when they got a majority government, people would have walked out of the halls and torn up their membership. I really do find it astounding that this is really the debate going on here.

As outlined earlier by my colleagues and the newspapers and electronic media, the behaviours of senators Brazeau, Duffy and Wallin show why the Senate is no longer relevant and really needs to be abolished. This is an institution whose members within did work that was important to the country, perhaps at one point. Really, this has fallen off the agenda and they are really not doing us proud. It is becoming a joke institution, and that is too bad.

The reforms that are put forward by the Conservatives really are weak and limpid and they will not accomplish what they are after.

The Senate costs Canadians $92 million each year, and even more important, the Senate blocks legislation passed by the House of Commons. This is the elected House. This is where legislation should originate, and the Senate now and for a long time has been blocking important legislation that Canadians want.

It is not really based on any sense of sober second thought, as was the past romantic view of this institution. It is really partisan politics at play here.

Some senators try to practise this view, and in fact I have great respect for Senator Dallaire. I think he has served this country well. Perhaps he would have been the type of senator who would have upheld ethical values. I do not think many of them are doing that now, and I do not think there is any way to curb that, other than by abolishing the Senate.

We are faced with many failed attempts at legislation from that side of the House, of course, but now there is a Supreme Court reference, which will give its legal opinion on the constitutional limits as they apply to limiting the terms of senators, electing senators and eliminating the requirement for senators to have residence in the province they represent; and of course what we are proposing here is abolishing the Senate.

While I look forward to the decision of the Supreme Court—I get some more Friday night reading—I cannot help but think this is a delaying tactic by the Conservatives. They have had years to look at this issue but only now are getting around to it when senators are caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

The Conservative are putting forward these motions, vigorously defending the Senate, unimaginably today, and then hoping this will fade off the public agenda and everything will go ahead as normal.

They are hoping that these scandals will blow over and be forgotten before the decision is delivered, but I cannot help but think that these current indiscretions will only be replaced by new indiscretions as we move forward. As the Duffy and Wallin debacle perhaps fades a bit from public memory, there will be new ones, because the Senate is really unaccountable. They do not really have any incentive to spend taxpayers' money wisely.

That is not all senators. There are some people there with fantastic reputations, but I do worry that others will continue to cast aspersions.

This is a time for vision. Again, going back to Baldwin and responsible government in Canada once being a dream, it was achieved through sheer political will, and although there are difficulties in abolishing the Senate, we should not be put off by those.

The same stands for women gaining the vote or first nations gaining the vote, the bill of rights in Canada or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. These are all major institutional shifts that were necessary and took significant political will to make them happen. We want to add one more to that list and that is abolition of the Senate.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member has not been here for the entire debate, but certainly I do not think I have heard a single government member stand and defend the Senate in its current form. I simply have not heard that.

For some time we have been arguing for a Senate chamber that has moved forward from 1867 to reflect a modern Canadian reality, where Canadians should have a say in who represents them in the Senate, where those term limits are not for up to 45 years but are at a more reasonable term limit whereby there will be an opportunity for renewal.

In a modern context it is unthinkable that Canadians in my riding, and I am certain in this member's riding, could be asked if they could name senators to represent them in the Senate. I will bet that many Canadians could not come up with any people to represent them.

[An hon. member]

Albertans can.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

However, Albertans can.

The Prime Minister has a perfect record of nominating and selecting senators who have been selected by regions. It would be a welcome reform and something the NDP should support.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about institutional change. We should make sure we divorce personalities from institutions. Therefore, it may be that the senators who were elected through this kind of rag-tag system the Conservatives have put together have been appointed by the Prime Minister, but there is no guarantee that will happen with other prime ministers. They are unable to make proposals that will permanently change these institutions for the better, and that is why we have to get rid of it.