Debates of April 29th, 2015

Ongoing Situation in Ukraine

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank the Minister of National Defence for his comments and take this opportunity, since we are focused on the military aspects of Canadian support, to assure those following this discussion and debate that we in this House, and the NDP, stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and fully support the efforts of the NATO assurance package in which Canada participated in a large way.

We acknowledge the positive support of Canada to the three centres of excellence NATO has in the Balkans, as well as our contribution to Baltic air policing and the provision of non-lethal equipment and support to the Ukrainian military. I am glad to hear from the minister that it was much appreciated and recognized as a Canadian contribution by those who received it.

I am reliably informed that to ensure that the equipment we are talking about actually got to the place it needed to go, Canada had to set up its own supply chain to make sure that happened, partly because of difficulties at the senior level of the Ukrainian military. This has been not my criticism but a criticism of the international crisis group and others. Some aid coming from the U.S., for example, ended up on the black market very quickly.

That indicates some serious problems within the military. Is there something Canada is doing and can do to assist at that level in improving the professionalisation of the Ukrainian military?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his thoughtful question, and the answer is yes. There is something we can and should do, and that is incorporated into the training mission. One of the specific training functions will be in logistical training for supply chains and the management of inventories. These sound like boring subjects, but in fact, no military operation can be effective without very strong logistical systems. That is why one of the areas of emphasis in our training operation will be logistics training.

I would point out that we are not aware of any confirmed reports of Canadian equipment in Ukraine going on the black market, but obviously, there are concerns in this respect. I would note that President Poroshenko has ordered and led a process of lustration of disloyal members of the Ukrainian armed forces in its officer corps to try to remove those who might have been seeking to profiteer from the conflict.

I give credit to my parliamentary secretary. On the second large shipment of Canadian equipment to Ukraine, he and a number of civil society volunteers actually participated in tracking the delivery of the equipment directly to Ukrainian troops. We have done our best to ensure the delivery of the equipment, on our part, and we will assist them with logistical training in the future.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, I must say at the onset that I do truly appreciate the opportunity we are having here this evening to talk about a very important issue. There is a high level of interest with in excess of 1.2 million to 1.3 million people of Ukrainian heritage but also others who are so much concerned in terms of what is happening in Ukraine and and how Russia is intervening, unjustifiably, against international law into the territory of Ukraine.

The benefits that I have been able to derive from the member for Toronto Centre, my colleague from Wascana and our foreign affairs critic have been immense as they tried to get a good understanding of what is happening in Ukraine. Through my leader, I have had the opportunity to visit and be an observer for both the presidential election and the parliamentary election, which has been a great experience, given the representation that I think is so critical on debates of this nature.

Earlier this year, the Liberal Party had asked whether the government was looking at or considering the possibility of military support.

I would like to, again, ask a similar question. Is the government giving any consideration or having any dialogue with the United States or our allied forces with respect to the banking industry, in particular, with respect to SWIFT and what might be done in that whole area?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, I beg the member's indulgence. I am not entirely clear on the question. Certainly, we will be willing to receive advice from the member and appreciate his support for the training mission.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Chair, I listened intently to the minister's presentation. He mentioned the Ottawa Citizen and I am seeking some clarification.

A few weeks ago, the Minister of National Defence claimed that the HMCS Fredericton was flown over by Russian fighter jets while on a NATO mission in the Black Sea. I just want to know if this Ottawa Citizen reporter wrote that no such encounter took place. That is what appeared in the Ottawa Citizen.

Would the minister provide us with clarification on that issue?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I certainly can. The media report to which he refers was wholly and entirely inaccurate. It was repeated by the leader of the Liberal Party, in this place, a couple of weeks ago.

I have here a declassified advisory maritime interaction event report from the commander of the HMCS Fredericton, dated 6 March 2015, which indicates that during an under way replenishment at sea, two Russian war planes closed Fredericton's position and operated in air space in the vicinity of the Fredericton for approximately 30 minutes. The aircraft closed Fredericton's position one at a time, at medium altitude, conducting manoeuvres to demonstrate they were not carrying weapons. Thereafter, the aircraft continued to operate in the vicinity of the Fredericton, flying at low and medium altitudes at distances that ranged from over top to several miles from the Fredericton. The Russian aircraft were not in communication with the Fredericton.

I would be happy to table this report, which comes from the commander of the Fredericton and demonstrators the precise veracity of what I said.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the minister for his comments. Tonight's take note debate is important. It is the first step in finding out what Canada can do to help Ukraine.

Unfortunately, we have already seen that Parliament and Canadians were misled with regard to the mission in Iraq and Syria. I would like to know what measures the minister is going to take to ensure that parliamentarians and Canadians are properly informed of our soldiers' activities during the new deployment of troops that was announced recently. I would also like to know how we are going to be informed of what progress is being made and whether the objectives of the deployment are being met.

I simply want to know how the minister plans to keep us abreast of any developments.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, with regard to Canada's mission against the genocidal terrorist organization known as the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, we are likely being more transparent than any other country. We are posting reports of all Canadian Forces air strikes in that area on my department's website. Every two weeks, Canadian Forces officers provide public updates or briefings on the situation there.

I am quite prepared to provide similar information regarding the training mission for our Ukranian partners. It will be a very open mission. It is not a secret. We provide similar training programs in countries all over the world. The Canadian Forces specialize in these programs. This is not a closed mission. It is transparent. I will be pleased to share information about the progress of our training mission in Ukraine with the House and the general public.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I was wondering if the hon. minister could tell us why Igor Sechin is not on Canada's sanctions list.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, that is a question I would refer to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I am here to discuss the Canadian training mission.

As a general rule, we have listed more individual Russians on our sanctions list than the United States or the European Union. We are demonstrating leadership. However, we would encourage those jurisdictions to follow our example when it comes to sanctions.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, as we know, Ukraine is caught in a very difficult situation. We have talked a great deal about it in this debate. Its situation is very difficult from a geopolitical point of view and in terms of defending its territory, as well as from a human point of view.

I would like to take some time to talk about it at greater length, so that we do not forget that after all these are human beings who have been caught in this situation. We must not forget that since April 2014, according to the UN and the World Health Organization, more than 6,000 people have died and more than 15,000 people have been wounded. The situation in the eastern part of the country is still extremely difficult. North of Donetsk and Lugansk, there have been many disruptions in water and electrical services. In the Donetsk area alone, 10,000 residential buildings have been destroyed. A large number of factories, roads and airports have also been destroyed, and the electrical power infrastructure has been completely wiped out.

The number of people displaced by the conflict has now reached 1.1 million. I see my colleagues all around me here. I come from the greater Montreal area. The number of people who have been displaced in Ukraine is the equivalent of half of the greater Montreal area. In addition, tens of thousands of people are trying to leave the country by all sorts of means and are seeking refuge, trying to emigrate, and so on. In short, it is a very harsh human and humanitarian situation.

The economic situation is also very uncertain. In the last year or so, the value of the Ukrainian currency has dropped by about 70%. Here again, we must always think about what this represents. We have seen Canada’s currency drop, but imagine if it suddenly dropped to 25 or 30 cents U.S. Imagine the impact that this would have on our daily lives. In addition, in 2015 Ukraine must pay back an $11 billion debt. We know its risk of defaulting on the payment is quite high.

According to the Ukrainian minister of finance, the country spends $5 million every day on the conflict alone. That is huge for a country that is facing enormous economic problems.

At this time of great need, Canada must stand with Ukraine and we must be true to our friendship with Ukraine. There is a great deal that we can do.

For one thing, we can continue to put pressure on Russia. Moments ago, the Minister of National Defence once again told us that Canada has sanctioned more individuals than any other country. Is he serious? What matters is not the number of people sanctioned, but the people being targeted. Tomorrow we could decide to add all of the veterinarians in Moscow to our sanctions list. That would probably add a few hundred names to the sanctions list, but it would have no impact at all unless Vladimir Putin has an animal he is very fond of and they decide not to treat Vladimir Putin's dog or cat or whatever. This is not about numbers. It is about targeting the right people.

There are two key players: Igor Sechin with Rosneft and Vladimir Yakunin with Russian Railways. They are close confidants of Vladimir Putin. They are on the Americans' list, but for some strange reason, they are not on Canada's list. That is certainly one thing we could do: impose tougher sanctions. The first thing to do is to stop saying that it is the number of people sanctioned that matters rather than the individuals being sanctioned.

We could also help reduce Ukraine's susceptibility to a form of blackmail by offering our expertise in the area of energy efficiency. That may seem odd, but I think this approach could be interesting. Given that we have a great deal of expertise in that area, this assistance could help alleviate some of the pressure being put on Ukrainians and help reduce their dependence on fossil fuels, which Vladimir Putin's Russia is exploiting.

Another aspect, and perhaps the most important, although the others are also important, has to with helping Ukrainians build the society they aspire to. In that regard, democratic development is key, and Canada must absolutely be a partner to Ukraine and support that country in the area of good governance.

I was very interested to hear what the representatives of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress had to say when they appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, which I am pleased to be a member of. Their remarks were so poignant, that I would like to quote part of their evidence. They said:

Canada can help foster NGO sector development, especially groups working in the areas of human rights, education, and law reform, as a vibrant civil society is one of the best guarantors of Ukraine's long-term democratic evolution.

I personally feel very good about that. I firmly believe that we must build civil societies because they support good governance and a truly democratic society.

Earlier we were talking about the fight against corruption, even within the army. Reports indicate that supplies provided by the U.S. were diverted and ended up on the black market. Ukrainians themselves, including those I have talked to, are saying that there is corruption at various levels of society. This is another area we can help them with.

As long as there is corruption, there cannot be fair and sustainable economic development, good governance or rule of law. This remains a major challenge in Ukraine, and I think that we could do a lot in that regard, in addition to providing financial support. We have to be there and stand with Ukraine.

In short, as we said earlier in the debate, there is much to be done. This is a friendly debate because we agree on the substance of the issue. The government has already engaged in the areas I mentioned. We encourage it to continue its efforts and to really focus on the issues of ensuring good governance, fighting corruption and strengthening civil society, among others.

Ideally, the government could play an important role in urging other countries to provide assistance. For example, to date, the Ukraine humanitarian response plan, established in February 2015 by the UN, has only received 12% of the funds required.

In 2014, the level of funding was good. However, in 2015, funds are not being collected as quickly as in 2014, probably because there are so many crises in the world. In my opinion, Canada could have a role to play in advising other countries to listen, not to forget Ukraine, to support it, to be present and to continue helping it.

I cannot help but say that had we not burned bridges with so many countries, it would be even easier to participate in the diplomatic efforts that are so vital, but we could at least try.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Chair, my colleague spoke very passionately. I think Canadians watching this tonight would like to know a little more about their role, what they can do to help out.

Recently in Oshawa we had a fundraiser, and the member for Etobicoke Centre and the member for Selkirk—Interlake were there. Members of the local Ukrainian-Canadian Congress, Walter Kish and his volunteers, helped raise $23,000 to help the organization Help Us Help The Children, children of war project. This organization focuses on providing counselling, rehab and humanitarian aid to children and families displaced by the war in eastern Ukraine.

Could my colleague explain how important it is for Canadians to become educated about this and how important this humanitarian aid is to the families and kids displaced by this horrible intervention by Russia?

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I sincerely thank the hon. member for his sensitivity about the issue I want to bring to the debate today, the terrible situation in which the humanitarian, economic and development aspects all come into play. We must help the Ukrainian people solve their problems.

I know there are fundraisers going on everywhere. Organizations are getting involved. Ukraine and Canada are closely linked. We have a very large Ukrainian community in Canada. Individuals and the Ukrainian Canadian Congress are getting involved. People can contribute in various ways. They not only can give money, but also simply talk about the situation and make sure the issue is kept alive in public discussions and dialogues that speak to our collective conscience.

That is what we are doing here this evening, but all Canadians can do it, anywhere in the country.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I appreciated my colleague's remarks. She emphasized the importance of helping Ukraine in various domains, including the economy.

That is certainly one of the positions the Liberal Party has taken. We could help kick-start the Ukrainian economy if we decided to sign a free trade agreement. We could even grant preferential tariffs for some of their export products, in order to get their economy moving. We know there are huge problems in this area. I think the government agrees with us.

I would like to hear what the NDP thinks of this issue.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for his question. Like me, he is a member of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

It is an interesting idea, but, as always, there is no magic solution. I said in my speech that sustainable and fair economic development rests on a foundation of good governance, and corruption must be eradicated. We have discussed the reinforcement of military capacity, but other areas also need to be strengthened, for instance the ministry of finance and the entire government structure. There is no magic bullet. Simply saying that we will sign an agreement and do business will not suddenly make everything right. The situation is more complex than that. I believe the Ukrainians themselves are asking for Canada's help in all these sectors. There is also a need to construct the infrastructure on which a fair and sustainable economy can be built.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, based on my colleague's extensive experience in foreign affairs and working in many countries, I know she knows all of the pieces that need to be put together to assist a country in distress, such as Ukraine is, and I really appreciateHolodomor her guidance.

There is one thing I would like to share. The response that my colleague gave to a question put by a Conservative member was to the credit of the Ukranian Canadian Congress, which has established a Canada Ukraine Foundation. I am hearing from Canadians. They are listening to this debate. They are concerned, and I encourage them to donate. That may be one place they can channel their donations through.

I very much appreciate the fact that my colleague has raised this issue about working with civil society, because it is ultimately the one that will work with the government to become less corrupt, to establish democratic foundations and to establish the rule of law. It is the one that must hold its government accountable. It is our job to give that civil society those skills. I am pleased to hear that just this week, Canada finally committed some dollars for civil society, apparently through the FCM, which is interesting.

Could my colleague speak to that, about experiences overseas and aid being given to help civil society to become a better monitor and watchdog over governments?

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I hope that my answer will be useful. When I was in Senegal, the country was holding a democratic election that involved a turnover of power and no violence at all. The whole process was fully transparent. It was a democratic process we could have been proud of.

The following day I got phone calls from Senegalese people who were thanking me for the election. I asked them what we had done. Their answer was, “the journalism school”. Journalists had been trained in Canada, and in turn they had become good reporters and were able to hold their government accountable and bring issues into the public sphere. For the Senegalese people, this was one of the main factors that had enabled the country to have such a flexible and peaceful transition to democracy.

That is one example of many, but I think that is the key point. It is not a matter of Canada going into a foreign country to tell people what to do or what not to do. It is a matter of developing local tools and resources to force the government to be accountable and to have a fully democratic system. This process first and foremost includes civil society.

[Leon Benoit, Conservative, Vegreville—Wainwright, AB]

Mr. Chair, the member made a comment something along the lines that if Canada had not burnt so many bridges, it would be able to talk better. Would the member give some specific examples of how Canada has burnt bridges, and how she thinks that if it had not done that, we would be able to talk more effectively with the Russians in the case of Ukraine?

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I do not think I have enough time to give all of the examples.

Sometimes during conferences I attend abroad, a foreign representative will ask me if I think people still have confidence in Canada. I know this goes back a few years now, but the fact that Canada was not re-elected to the Security Council is telling. The people who supported us before no longer support us because we have a black-and-white approach to diplomacy, with the good people on one side and the bad people on the other.

That is not how diplomacy works, and now we are seeing the results.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Associate Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Selkirk—Interlake.

As we discuss Canada's ongoing and expanded contribution to NATO and Ukraine, it is vital that all members of the House understand that the many steps taken by Russia over the last few years have brought us to this point in time where we are now in a period of conflict, steps which now threaten the safety of the Ukrainian people, a key ally of Canada, and indeed a people integral to Canadian society.

Russia has used force to change borders in Europe, violating international laws and damaging Russia's relations with the west. Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea is a violation of the 1994 Budapest memorandum, which provided assurance for Ukraine's territorial integrity. Whether it takes 5 months or 50 years to liberate Ukraine, we will never recognize the illegal Russian occupation of any Ukrainian territory, including Crimea.

In response to this challenge, Canada has provided assistance worth $578 million, including loan guarantees, for economic stabilization, humanitarian aid, non-kinetic military equipment and other support, including developmental assistance. We have also led the way in economic sanctions against over 210 individuals and entities in Russia. We now propose sending Canadian Armed Forces personnel to Ukraine for training purposes.

Last month, the leader of the NDP stated that his party would not support the expanded mission, since it was not led by the United Nations or NATO. Our government does not plan to go along to get along. We will do what is right, with or without the support from the opposition.

The crisis in Ukraine is simply the latest and most visible in a series of trouble provocations and actions taken by Russia, all of which have demonstrated the Putin regime's blatant and dangerous disregard for international law and the security of Europe. In fact, we now call into question Russia's willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue on issues of European security or the de-escalation of aggression against the Ukrainian people.

Vladimir Putin makes no secret about his disdain for the post-cold war security architecture, making a series of provocative anti-western statements in the press. In recent months we have seen Russian bombers flying through controlled airspace without transponders. We have seen bombers over the English Channel. Right here at home we have seen a sharp increase in Russian activity and aggression in the Arctic in an effort to challenge our Arctic sovereignty. While our military is ready to respond to any and all threats to our northern borders, we have seen a rapid increase in the frequency and size of Russian military exercises in the north. Although the battle rages far away, the effects and consequences are felt right here at home.

Canada hosts a proud Ukrainian community of 1.2 million strong. It is one of Canada's largest ethnic communities, and has been vital in contributing to our social and economic progress. Through hard work, dedication and perseverance for over 100 years, Ukrainians have established themselves at the highest level of government, business and sport and culture throughout the whole of Canadian society. Canada was the first western country to recognize Ukraine's independence. Canada was also the first western government to recognize the genocidal nature of the Holodomor, the famine genocide imposed by the Soviets from 1932 to 1933.

In support of democracy and transparency, Canada sent the largest election observer missions in the last two Ukrainian elections.

The record is clear. Our government has been, and remains, steadfast in our commitment to stand with the people of Ukraine. It is therefore vital that we continue to stand together as allies, the Euro-Atlantic security.

I am proud to support the government's ongoing commitment to the alliance and Canada's expanded bilateral support to Ukraine.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Chair, listening to the minister speak is a good example of what my colleague from Westmount—Ville-Marie was saying about the government's black and white attitude, its failure to understand what is going on. In fact, I think that, as a colleague of mine used to say, instead of the minister being on receive, he is on transmit. He did not listen to what was said on this side of the House and he persists in saying that the NDP does not support the military activities in Ukraine by the government or the Operation Reassurance mission. He clearly does not listen.

To characterize some of the things that he has as an attack on our sovereignty in the Arctic by the Russians really seeks to inflame something that is non-existent. People constantly go before the defence committee saying quite clearly that there are no military threats to Canada in the Arctic and yet he persists in talking as if there were.

I would ask the minister if he would be a little more nuanced in his comments. We obviously stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people and support the efforts being made there. That is not in question and I do not know why the minister wants to persist in suggesting that it is.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Chair, one thing is for sure. We have not buried our heads in the sand. Some of us happen to know what is going on and we are happy to understand, realize and admit that there are some issues that need to be addressed and the challenges are there. I should also enlighten the hon. member that it is not only about what I have said, but it is also about what the Canadian government has done.

Certainly, Ukraine is a top priority of ours. It is critical that Ukraine seize the current opportunity to undertake deep and lasting reforms. It cannot do that on its own. It cannot do that with a gun to its head, and it certainly cannot do that with people avoiding dealing with reality. It is a threatened country by a very determined, aggressive foe, an adversary, and denying or ignoring that does not solve the problem.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, I would make reference to the fabulous work that the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has done in terms of supporting members of Parliament on all sides of the House. The information that it provides to us is quite substantial and of great benefit.

In my home province of Manitoba, in particular, the Manitoba Provincial Council of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and Oksana Bondarchuk have been very helpful. I have had a great deal of correspondence on some of the issues, for example, that have been raised.

I would ask the minister to provide some comment on a particular issue, which is the reality that 7,000 people have died, it has been estimated, and about 19,000 have been wounded.

Does the minister agree with what has been espoused by many that there is a need for weapons?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Chair, the aid that Canada has been providing is that which will enable the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian military to elevate their ability to deal with a very aggressive and brutal regime that is endeavouring to take over not only Crimea but that whole area of the world in terms of their actions. The aid that we provided is what we feel is appropriate at this time. Certainly it has been helpful and in fact very much appreciated. We will continue to stand with the Ukrainian people going forward in whatever needs are identified as appropriate under the circumstances.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, it is indeed an honour to be in the House to discuss the situation in Ukraine. As someone of Ukrainian heritage and as someone who has a riding that has a large percentage of people who are part of the Ukrainian diaspora, this is an issue that is not only near and dear to us as Ukrainian Canadians, but it is of great concern to all Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

I have to thank the Prime Minister. His leadership on this file is head and shoulders above that of most other world leaders. He had a strong role in making sure that we were there to support Ukraine and its people as they got rid of a very corrupt president in Viktor Yanukovych. The Prime Minister spoke with clarity. He was there at the inauguration of the new government and has been there every step of the way, whenever we met with President Poroshenko, and making sure that we provide the aid that Ukraine has requested of Canada.

When we started this discussion tonight, it was about the training mission that the Canadian Armed Forces are going to be undertaking. I can tell members that I am so proud of our brave men and women who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces for the outstanding work they do day in and day out here in Canada and around the world. It is their capabilities and expertise that they are bringing to the table in Ukraine, which are desperately needed.

When we think about Ukraine under Viktor Yanukovych, he allowed the Ukrainian military to atrophy. A country of 54 million people only had a standup army of 5,000 troops. After the Maidan, after the elections, the invasion, occupation and illegal annexation of Crimea by the Putin regime in Russia, and then ultimately the fighting that we are seeing now in the Donbass in eastern Ukraine, Ukraine does not have the capabilities or the individuals to be able to go out there and fight. It may have a fighting force today of 40,000 to 45,000 troops, but we have to remember that these are all fresh recruits. These are new volunteers and they have not had the basic training that most people in the military get here in Canada. Even though they are battle hardened, they still lack those tactical skills at an individual and unit level. Therefore, it is great that our armed forces are going over to provide this much-needed training and that they will be able to do it a battalion group at a time.

We are doing this in collaboration with the United Kingdom and United States at the Yavoriv base in western Ukraine, which Canada helped build several years ago. It is only a few kilometres from the Polish border and 1,300 kilometres away from the fighting that we see in the Donbass. Our men and women in uniform who are going to be over there doing the training are relatively removed from harm's way.

I know that the opposition has brought up the issue of corruption and the concern that it is taking place. I would remind all members in the House that we have a situation where Canada has signed on with the United States and the United Kingdom to the Ukraine Joint Commission on Defence Reform and Bilateral Cooperation. We are leading the subcommittee in that commission on military placing to deal with the exact problem of corruption within Ukraine's military.

As the Minister of National Defence has already pointed out, President Poroshenko has been doing lustration and has been trying to remove what they call the fifth column from the Ukrainian government and from the Ukrainian military. We have to be there to support him. That is what the military police are doing and it is what some of the $578 million has gone toward. It is helping with lustration, best practices, respect for human rights and the rule of law, and removing corruption.

I also want to say regarding the military equipment we delivered that I was fortunate enough to go there to ensure that it was handed over in a formal fashion from Canada to the Ukraine armed forces. We also have people over there who have done great work, such as Lenna Koszarny, who is a Canadian living in Ukraine. She is an accountant. She is working with our ambassador, Roman Waschuk. She was there to make sure that all the aid got delivered. There are other volunteers to track its movement as well.

I want to give a big shout-out to them for making sure that our great military equipment is getting into the right hands and is being well-used.