Debates of Oct. 3rd, 2017

Taxation

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister just does not get it. Everyone is against his unfair tax increases. Entrepreneurs, business owners and, today, premiers, and even members of his own caucus are opposed to these changes, but the Liberals are not listening. The Prime Minister has not heard the people who are telling him how devastating this would be. He may be listening, but the Liberals are not hearing and they are certainly not changing their mind.

Will the Prime Minister commit today to doing the right thing, vote in favour of our motion to extend the consultation period so they can finally listen to what Canadians are saying, and do something about it?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we have gone through a consultation period that was important . We have listened to Canadians. We have heard five things that are very important. It is important to continue to allow people to invest in small businesses and communities; we are going to take that as an important issue. We have heard that it is important to make sure that family farms continue and are successful; we are going to make sure that is done. We have heard that women entrepreneurs and professionals need to be protected if they want to take time off; we are going to make sure that is possible. We need to keep tax rates low and we need to have a system that is administratively efficient. All those things will be taken into consideration as we move forward with these reforms.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals launched this consultation period of only 75 days over the summer, and they keep doubling down. They keep using inflammatory and insulting language. Local businesses create jobs, and when the Liberals hurt them, it will hurt the workers they employ. So many people are against these changes. So many people are asking for more time so they can share their stories with Liberal ministers, who continue to ignore them.

Will the Prime Minister commit to allowing his Liberal MPs the freedom to listen to their constituents, stand up and represent them in the House, and vote in favour of our motion? Will it be a free vote?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we made an important commitment to make sure that our tax system works for all Canadians. We made an important commitment to listen to Canadians as we put forward measures that we know will ensure a fairer system. Therefore, we have been listening. We are going to move forward taking into account the things that we have heard so that we get to a system that encourages investment, but is also fairer for all Canadians as we move forward so that all Canadians in this generation and the next generation can be sure that they have opportunities that our tax system should provide.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we will see how the Liberal MPs vote at the end of the day. We still have a chance.

The Liberals’ proposed reform, which will increase the tax burden on our businesses, is a complete disgrace, and above all, hypocritical. On the one hand, entrepreneurs will pay dearly, while on the other, the businesses owned by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance will not be affected. The Liberal government's policy is “do as I say, not as I do”.

My question to the Minister of Finance is simple. We know that these new measures are meant to take an extra $250 million from the pockets of entrepreneurs. Did the minister check, analyze, and study the real impact of these measures on—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we know that our current tax system is not really fair. The wealthiest Canadians are encouraged to incorporate to access a lower tax rate. That is not a good system. We want a system that is fair and also encourages investment in active business. Our measures and everything we heard during our consultations will help us achieve that goal. It is important to listen to what people have to say. We have listened, and now we are going to consider what we have heard.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it makes no sense at all for the minister to propose very powerful measures that will make life difficult for all business owners, when his department has yet to carry out a single impact study to determine the direct effects those measures will have on them. This is totally unacceptable.

The minister may not be listening, or not listening well, but we Conservatives are. Last Friday, we five members from Quebec City listened to businesspeople like Gaétan Boudreau, a construction entrepreneur who told us that if these changes go forward, he will close up shop.

Is the minister aware that his measures are going to kill Canadian businesses, this country's job creators, and cost Canadians their jobs?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, during our consultations, we heard some very important things.

We heard that it is crucial for SMEs to continue to have the lowest tax rate in the G7. We are going to make sure they keep it. We know it is vital to ensure that farmers, fishers, and women entrepreneurs are protected. That is very important to us.

However, we can build a fairer system at the same time, which is a key goal of ours. We are going to move forward with our measures while taking into account what we heard in our consultations.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the tax measures proposed by the Minister of Finance have sparked a lot of heated debate, and that is putting it mildly. They have also raised a lot of concerns.

People are being bombarded with information from all sides, and it is often contradictory. The only thing we know for sure is that Netflix will not have to pay its fair share. I think it would be a good idea to take the time to talk about this and other very real problems, such as tax havens and tax loopholes for CEOs and multinationals.

Why do the Liberals not agree?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, our government is fully committed to combatting tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance

In our first two budgets, we invested over $1 billion, which has put us on the right track for recovering nearly $25 billion. Over the past two years, 727 cases have been transferred to criminal investigation, and there have been 268 warrants and 78 convictions.

Let me be very clear. We will continue to work and bring tax cheats to justice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, why not a gazillion dollars while they are at it?

It is becoming clear that both the Liberals and Conservatives are not serious about tax fairness. Neither are willing to discuss tax avoidance carried out by big corporations, CEOs, and the use of tax havens.

The Liberals' consultations on tax changes are too short and too narrow. Let us agree to do the right thing and extend and expand consultations to include big corporations, CEO tax loopholes, and tax havens.

Why are Liberals still going after the small fish and letting the big fish off the hook?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we have been thinking about how we can ensure our tax system works since our first day in office. We have been focused on how we can deal with tax evasion and tax avoidance, giving over a billion dollars to Canada Revenue Agency to make sure we are having Canadians pay their fair share.

What we are doing in our consultation process is really the continuation of a discussion that has been going on since we have been in office. We want to make sure that our system does not encourage wealthy Canadians to incorporate to pay a lower rate of tax. At the same time, we want to encourage people to invest in their businesses. These two goals can be met simultaneously. They will help our economy and help Canadians to feel their system is fair.

The Environment

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Commissioner of Environment and Sustainable Development today reported that the Liberal government had abjectly failed to take the necessary action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions or address the risks posed by climate change. She reported that Canada remained megatonnes away from meeting either the 2020 or 2030 targets.

Stunningly, even Environment and Climate Change Canada is failing to deliver a climate risk and adaptation plan, or an action plan to measure, monitor, and publicly report on emissions.

When will Canadians finally see action on climate change?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Mr. Speaker, I am extraordinarily proud of our government's record on action and climate change.

After a decade of inaction by the previous government, we not only have a target but a plan to make it. We are reducing emissions from coal-fired plants. We are putting a price on carbon pollution. We are making historic investments in public transit. For example, in Ottawa, the second phase of LRT will be the largest reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in the city's history.

We are taking serious action on climate change because climate change is real and we owe it to our kids.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with a government that is extremely focused on managing its image, but here is something striking that needs managing: 219 megatonnes of greenhouse gas emissions. Let us remember that number.

The Liberal government, which adopted the previous government's weak greenhouse gas reduction targets, will fall 219 megatonnes short of its objective. The environment commissioner's report on this and other subjects is clear.

Does the government intend to quickly put practical measures in place or will it be content to just focus on its image?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Mr. Speaker, I am so proud of what our government has done. The former Conservative government did nothing. It had targets, but no plan. We have worked very hard with the provinces, territories, and indigenous peoples to come up with a real plan to reduce our emissions, eliminate carbon, and put a price on pollution for historic investments in public transit. Climate change is real, and we are taking it seriously. We are doing this for our children.

Taxation

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on Friday, I met with Hatch Engineering, a great Canadian success story, with over 9,000 employees.

On Thursday, the president attended the disastrous Oakville town hall where he was given 90 seconds, one second for every 100 employees, to talk about his concerns with the Liberal tax plan. Why did he go there? Because he was refused meetings by the members for Oakville, Oakville North—Burlington, and Burlington. Even the Minister of Science refused his meeting.

Will the Minister of Finance admit that his consultation has been wholly inadequate, and vote with us to extend the consultation?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the consultations were very important for us. We had the opportunity to understand what the issues were with the measures we were putting forward.

We know it is important to get to a tax system that works for all Canadians. We know that as we do that, it is important to listen. We did listen. We heard from people, like the gentleman who was mentioned by the member opposite, to hear their concerns. I heard from many other Canadians.

Knowing that, it allows us to make sure that we move forward with a system that encourages businesses to invest. The low tax rate protects farms and women entrepreneurs in their ability to continue to invest in their businesses, while—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. member for Milton.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, he claims that he will listen to the concerns of Canadians, but what is really interesting is that just days after introducing this paper, he told on CBC's The House “We're not going to change our mind.”

The Minister of Finance seems to be very concerned and consumed with protecting the interests of Morneau Shepell that every request to extend the consultation has fallen on deaf ears.

The consultation is over. Tonight is the vote. Will the Liberal members on the other side agree and vote with their constituents, or are they going to vote with Morneau Shepell?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we believe it is important that we move forward with measures that are going to make sure our system is fair for the long term. We also know that doing it means we need to get it right.

Listening to Canadians has given us insights. We have heard things that are important to consider so we move forward in a way that actually gets at the challenge that wealthy Canadians have advantages not available to other Canadians, but we do that in a way that does not have unintended consequences.

That is our commitment. We will follow through.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are done consulting people about their tax changes, but many questions remain unanswered. What is clear, though, is that companies such as Morneau Shepell will benefit from these changes and will not be paying more tax after the reforms come into effect. The minister is being hypocritical by making small businesses pay more while protecting his own personal fortune.

When will the minister realize that he is in conflict of interest and should recuse himself from this discussion?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we know that it is very important to stay on track with our approach to a fairer tax system. We have heard many things, and with our knowledge, information, and perspectives, we can continue to have a system that encourages investment in business across the country and that is also fair. Those are our two goals, and we can achieve both of them.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance did not answer my question. I will help him by quoting the commitment he made in writing: “to abstain from any participation in any matters or decisions...other than those of general application, relating to Morneau Shepell”.

According to experts who appeared before the Standing Committee on Finance, a firm like Morneau Shepell will benefit from these changes, because it offers Canadians private pension plans.

Once and for all, will the minister abstain from any participation in this discussion?