House of Commons Hansard #206 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was rohingya.
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, that is not at all the case.
We are looking for a way to improve our tax system. We are going to find a way to have a system that encourages people to invest in their businesses. That is very important. We need a fair tax system. A tax system that encourages the wealthiest Canadians to set up private corporations that are taxed less than the middle class is not a fair system.
We want a system that is fair and allows people to invest in their active businesses.
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Mr. Speaker, this past Saturday I was at the Halifax West High School, where over 400 residents crammed into the cafeteria to talk about these tax changes. I listened to their stories and shared their concerns, and yet I was the only member of Parliament in attendance. That is right: not a single one of the 32 Atlantic members of Parliament were there to listen or to defend their government's policies.
If their own members are not willing to defend this policy, when is the minister going to drop these changes?
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, we know that citizens in Atlantic Canada and across the country want a tax system that is fair. They want to make sure that the system does not encourage the richest to incorporate so they can have a lower tax rate than the middle class.
We are out listening to people. I too was in Nova Scotia listening to small business owners and professionals and I too was in New Brunswick listening to the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, and we are going to continue listening to them. We know that what we are focused on are measures that are helping the very wealthiest. We know that 80% of assets and past investments are in 2% of small companies. What we are doing is making sure our system is fair.
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
He may have gone to Atlantic Canada, Mr. Speaker, but he absolutely did not hear from constituents. Let me give an example.
On the same day that he decided he was not going to go to this incredibly large gathering of 400 people, he did have a private closed-door little session 15 kilometres down the road. Here is the thing about it: when the public tried to get in, what did they do? They locked the doors.
I want to know. Even if he cannot defend these changes to the general public, I am wondering if he will stop locking people out and start listening.
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, as the members opposite focus on how they can help the wealthiest to maintain tax breaks not available to other middle-class Canadians, what we are trying to do is ensure that our system works for the long term, so I will continue to be out listening to Canadians. That is very important.
We know that as we move forward, Canadians want to make sure that we get this right. They want to ensure that we continue to have investments in our small businesses and the incentives to do so. We will do that, but at the same time, we will make sure the system works for all Canadians.
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the finance minister are not only helping the wealthy, they are doing it by helping themselves.
The Prime Minister said his family fortune will be sheltered from these changes. The finance minister has structured the changes so that they will not apply to any company that trades on the stock market, like his billion-dollar family business, so while ma and pa in the corner store will pay higher taxes, his billionaire company will not. Why will the bill on Main Street be so much higher than for Bill on Bay Street?
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, this sort of scaremongering is what is going on across our country.
The fact of the matter is that we will make sure small business tax rates stay low. We will make sure that small businesses can continue to invest in their business. That is our ongoing commitment. However, we are making sure that the system does not advantage the wealthiest in our society over the middle class. This is important.
We on this side of the House can actually do two things at the same time: help small businesses to invest and keep tax rates low. That is what we are going to do.
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Mr. Speaker, they are doing two things at the same time: protecting the finance minister's family fortune and the Prime Minister's family fortune. If it is just scaremongering, if it is not true that their fortunes are sheltered, can the minister give me one example of a change in these proposals that will raise taxes on the Prime Minister's fortune or on the finance minister's fortune?
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, we know, having taken a look at our tax code, that—
The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan
Most members in all parties are able to sit through question period and not react when someone else is speaking and are able to wait until the microphone is on in front of them and it is their turn to speak before doing so. I would ask the rest to show a little respect for opposing views. Whether they like what they are saying or not, we have to listen to them in a democracy.
The hon. member for Sherbrooke.
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Mr. Speaker, everyone remembers the fraudulent scheme orchestrated by Swiss Bank UBS to help wealthy individuals, including Canadians, avoid paying their taxes.
Believe it or not, 10 years later, the Minister of National Revenue is still refusing to meet with one of the main whistleblowers in this case. It is completely ridiculous. A former bank employee wants to share information about instances of tax evasion and the minister is simply refusing to listen to what he has to say. Let us be serious here.
Can the minister explain why she is still refusing to listen to what this whistleblower has to say, even though he made it possible for the U.S. to recover hundreds of millions of dollars?
Diane Lebouthillier LiberalMinister of National Revenue
Mr. Speaker, our government is fully committed to combatting tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
In our last two budgets, we invested nearly $1 billion to crack down on tax cheats. Our plan is working. Last year, we announced that we would recover $13 billion. What is more, 335 cases were transferred for criminal investigation, and $10 million in fines were imposed, as were $44 million in third-party penalties. We have a tax informant program in place if anyone anywhere in the world has any information they want to give us.
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Mr. Speaker, she could also just set up a meeting with him.
It is funny how a Liberal's memory sounds like Dory's in the movie Finding Nemo.
A small business tax reduction: never heard about that. However, the Liberals promised to tackle big loopholes for CEOs that cost us hundreds of millions of dollars. Not anymore. In fact, the finance minister said on the radio, “That issue is not something that we've backed away from. It's just not something we've moved forward on.”
Come on. Why are the Liberals targeting the little guys and protecting their wealthy friends on Bay Street?
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, I am happy to take that question. We took a look at our tax code. We took a look at where significant advantages were going to wealthy Canadians and how, just by incorporating, they are able to reduce their tax rate so it is lower than the tax rate for people in the middle class. We know that is not fair. We also know that it is not something that will allow people to make investments in the ongoing success of our economy. Therefore, we are focused on how we can make the system fairer, how we can encourage small businesses and all businesses to invest. We are going to move forward with these measures after listening to Canadians about how to do them properly. That is really important. We will end up with a tax system that is more fair.
Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Mr. Speaker, I have a number of questions regarding the new Liberal tax and yet I keep hearing the same broken record. The Liberals are insulting farmers with their inane one-liner. The farmers, their families, and the people in my riding who purchase our high-quality local products at reasonable prices are worried. The Minister of Agriculture is creating doubt in their minds, instead of encouraging them to cultivate prosperity in Canada.
When will the minister stop being the Prime Minister's yes man and start acting responsibly to defend farmers?
Lawrence MacAulay LiberalMinister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Mr. Speaker, we want to create a tax system that is fair for Canadians. We are listening to farmers and encouraging them to share their ideas as to how to create a fairer tax system.
Being a farmer, I truly understand saving money for a rainy day. I know that my colleague would not want to mislead farmers. The fact is that the money that is saved in the corporation is there, fully available for the farmers to use for buying equipment, buying land, growing their company, and making sure that the farm succeeds. What we are going to do is create more business, not less business.
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Mr. Speaker, I find the agriculture minister's answer very interesting. He said that money invested in a corporation is there for a corporation, but clearly he does not understand his own tax changes. The finance minister is taking the ability away from farmers to save for their retirement, invest in their own operations, or put money away for a rainy day in a down year.
Canadian farmers understand the implications that these changes will have. The changes will devastate rural communities and wipe out the family farm. Will the agriculture minister stand with farmers? Will he stand up against the finance minister and beg him to back down from these tax changes?
Lawrence MacAulay LiberalMinister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, this government would create a fairer tax system. I am sure my hon. colleague would never want to mislead farmers. The fact of the matter is that the money that is invested in the corporation is fully available, if my hon. colleague wishes to listen.
The money is fully there and available for the farmers to build buildings, buy property, and increase their business. In fact, what this government wants to do is make sure there is more investment and more business expansion, and with these tax changes, there will be more business expansion.
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Speaker, now I understand.
What is the difference between the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Finance?
There is none.
Both ministers regard farmers as cash cows to pay down the Liberal deficit. Some 43,000 farming households in Canada are desperately asking the two ministers to extend the consultation period, but they refuse to listen to them.
Farmers do not benefit from the advice of Morneau Shepell and they do not have time to attend cash-for-access events to speak with the Prime Minister.
If the Minister of Agriculture does not have enough influence to change things, who else will stand up for family farms?
Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, it is important to have a tax system that is fair.
We know that that is not currently the case. Now the wealthy can simply incorporate and pay a lower tax rate than middle-class Canadians. That is not fair.
I know that farmers can continue to invest in their farms. That is very important. We are going to keep listening in order to make sure that farmers can continue their operations, which are so important to our country.
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Mr. Speaker, for generations, family farms have been the heart and soul of my community. Farming families work side by side and share in the risks and rewards of making their farms a success. That way of life is now threatened by the Liberal proposal to introduce crippling new taxes that could make transferring the family farm to the next generation next to impossible.
Why are the Liberals threatening to kill family farms with their tax changes, while the multi-millionaire owners of Bay Street businesses like Morneau Shepell will not pay an extra cent?
Lawrence MacAulay LiberalMinister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Mr. Speaker, I have indicated many times in the House that what we want to do is create a more fair tax system. These transactions are very complex and have been very complex for many years. We want to hear the views of farmers as to how we handle these transactions and make sure that we are able to help farmers move their family farm from one generation to the other. What we want to do is to hear from the farmers.
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Mr. Speaker, this evening, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will be hosting a dinner as part of the NAFTA renegotiations at the National Arts Centre. By choosing that location, the minister is stressing the importance of keeping cultural protections in the agreement. Bravo!
However, I sincerely hope that this gesture is not just another symbolic one because the signatories to the nationwide declaration on culture are concerned. They all recall that when the Minister of Heritage went to Silicon Valley to explain our policies on cultural diversity, she hit a wall.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs assure our creators that she will not bargain away cultural exemption?
Mélanie Joly LiberalMinister of Canadian Heritage
Mr. Speaker, protecting the cultural exemption is a priority for our government.
We recognize how important the contribution of arts and culture is to our economy and our society. NAFTA's record is marked by economic growth and job creation for the middle class. We will continue to work on the national and international levels to preserve cultural diversity in the digital era.