Debates of May 15th, 2023

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation—Main Estimates, 2023-24

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am going to take a slightly different tack. All evening, the minister has been saying that we are asking ridiculous questions. However, he has not answered any of the questions that he has been asked since the evening began.

I am going to ask him a very simple one. After spending $92 billion on his housing plan, does he think that he knows more than everyone else?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion]

Mr. Chair, almost half a million homes built or repaired is a significant impact. Almost two million Canadian households helped through the national housing strategy is a significant impact.

Is the hon. member denigrating that number and minimizing the impact?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, the reality is that, after the minister spent all of that money on his plan for housing in Canada, 32% fewer homes will be built in the coming year. Could the minister explain why there will be 32% fewer homes built after he spent $92 billion?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, first of all, all the amounts of money have not all been spent, because this is a 10-year plan. It is a long-term plan. It is a stable plan. It is a predictable plan.

The impacts are already there. We have seen almost half a million homes repaired or built, and almost two million Canadian households have been positively impacted by the national housing strategy.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a very simple question. I hope that the minister will have the number for us. How much of the money allocated under his 10-year plan has been spent to date? How many houses were expected to be built with the money that was spent? How many houses will be built in the coming years?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have provided the hon. member with the current numbers based on all the investments that we have made. I have made those numbers clear, twice, in my answers.

What is rich is that this is the party that has voted no all along, to all those investments that have delivered all the units that I just mentioned.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will repeat my question. Has the target for the number of houses that were planned to be built with the money spent in his 10-year plan been achieved?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, we have spent over $30 billion on housing investments, creating 118,000 new units and repairing almost 300,000 units of affordable housing.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, how many federal government buildings are available for social housing in Canada?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, what is interesting to learn from that question is that it is almost as if the party opposite is just discovering the notion of making federal lands and property available for affordable housing.

I have news to break to them, we have been doing this since the beginning of the national housing strategy in 2017. Conservatives have just come around to the idea now. Even then, the idea is a very half-baked plan.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, once again, the minister is taking us for fools for asking him simple questions that I believe are intelligent enough to be answered intelligently. Instead of accusing us of all kinds of nonsense, he really should try to answer the questions we ask him.

How many federal government buildings and properties would be available for social housing in Canada now? Can he give us a simple answer?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, he is the one who is taking Canadians for fools, because he thinks he can vote against all the investments in affordable housing, including the federal lands initiative, which is doing exactly what he pretends to care about, and yet he comes back to this House and says that he cares about all these issues. The voting record shows that the member has voted, every single time, against investments in housing.

How does that make sense? The member votes against the very thing that he is advocating for, and then accuses the Liberal government of not doing anything. When I point out that hypocrisy, the member says that I am taking his party for fools. I am not, I am just pointing out the facts. The member could look at the record himself.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Hell, Mr. Chair, am I being naive? I asked him a simple question.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

I would like the hon. member to withdraw that word and chose another one.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am a very patient person. I think I am a smart enough man to ask questions that I consider intelligent.

I have a very simple question for the minister. How many federal buildings and property are available for conversion to social housing?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is called the federal lands initiative. We have had this program for a number of years. The hon. member has come around to the utility of this program, and I congratulate him for coming around to this idea, but he is a number of years late into this program.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Chair, under this minister's watch, the CMHC's use of performance bonuses is out of control, and this in the midst of a housing crisis.

How much in performance bonuses did the CMHC pay out last year?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion]

Mr. Chair, the hon. member must know or at least ought to know that CMHC, as a Crown corporation, makes decisions regarding mortgage insurance criteria and questions regarding compensation for its staff independently.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Chair, I know that the minister is responsible for the CMHC budget. The CEO is sitting right in front of him. I am going to ask him again: How much last year in performance bonuses was paid out by the CMHC?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, no minister of the Crown makes or has ever made decisions in terms of an independent Crown corporation's employee compensation system. The hon. member knows that or ought to know that.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Chair, I ought to know that the minister is responsible for the performance in his department; he is failing miserably at it.

What percentage of CMHC executives got a bonus last year?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is embarrassing to listen to this kind of questioning, because the hon. member should know or knows that no minister of the Crown is responsible for the compensation determined by an independent Crown corporation.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Chair, the minister is responsible for results in his portfolio. Last year, the CMHC, under his watch, gave $27 million in performance bonuses. One hundred per cent, which is every single executive who has overseen the doubling of housing prices, the doubling of mortgage payments and, frankly, did the debate prep for the minister tonight, got a good performance bonus. After tonight, I am starting to understand just how low the bar is for a good performance.

What was the average size of the bonus last year given to employees at the CMHC?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think the hon. member is absolutely on brand in attacking civil servants, which is what the Conservatives did when they were in government for almost nine years. I am not going to take that bait.

The hon. member knows or should know that no minister of the Crown has ever made a determination on the employee compensation by an independent Crown corporation. He knows that. He can play all the fake outrage he wants, but on this side of the House, we know that the independence of Crown corporations determines the compensation of their employees.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Chair, the minister is responsible for the performance of his or her department.

The average bonus for performance at the CMHC was over $12,000 last year; 2,100 employees received over $12,000, not in salary but as a performance bonus. That is 100% of executives and 96% of employees.

Canadians are looking at our housing crisis, and seeing how things are getting worse not better, and wondering what the criteria is for anybody receiving a performance bonus at the CMHC?