House of Commons Hansard #34 of the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was victims.

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Military Justice System Modernization Act Second reading of Bill C-11. The bill modernizes the military justice system, aiming to improve safety and trust within the Canadian Armed Forces. It removes jurisdiction over Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada from military courts, implements recommendations from the Arbour and Fish reports to strengthen independence for key roles, and expands victim support. Conservatives raise concerns about civilian court capacity and potential political interference. The Bloc Québécois supports the bill's advancement but criticizes the years of governmental inaction. 48300 words, 6 hours in 2 segments: 1 2.

Statements by Members

Question Period

The Conservatives criticize the Liberal government's bail laws, attributing a bloodbath of crime and 1,600 daily violent crimes to them, and urge support for their "jail not bail" bill, endorsed by police associations. They also attack the Prime Minister's failed trade diplomacy, noting doubled U.S. tariffs on steel, aluminum, autos, and softwood lumber, leading to 86,000 job losses and Canada's fastest-shrinking economy.
The Liberals defend their upcoming tough-on-crime bail and sentencing reforms and promote Bill C-2 for stronger borders. They highlight the Prime Minister's U.S. visit to protect Canadian jobs and industries from tariffs on steel, aluminum, and auto, emphasizing generational economic investments and fiscal strength.
The Bloc criticizes the Prime Minister's U.S. visit for trade concessions without securing gains for Quebec's lumber and aluminum sectors or releasing forestry aid. They also raise concerns about the dangerous "Driver Inc." scam and blame the government for the worsening Canada Post crisis due to ministerial interference.
The NDP advocates for upholding Indigenous rights and a BC tanker moratorium, opposing crude oil projects in the Great Bear Rainforest.

Canada Labour Code First reading of Bill C-247. The bill amends the Canada Labour Code to repeal section 107, aiming to prevent governments from forcing striking workers back to work and uphold the right to strike and free collective bargaining. 200 words.

Time Change Act First reading of Bill C-248. The bill proposes holding a pan-Canadian conference with provinces, territories, and Indigenous leaders to discuss ending the practice of changing clocks and establishing one fixed time across Canada. 200 words.

Petitions

Adjournment Debates

Food bank usage Warren Steinley questions Ryan Turnbull about the rise in food bank usage, attributing it to government policies. Turnbull defends the government's measures to address the cost of living and accuses the Conservatives of voting against programs that would help struggling families.
Government fiscal responsibility Helena Konanz accuses the Liberals of financial mismanagement, citing job losses and the PBO's warnings. Ryan Turnbull defends the government's economic policies, highlighting support for industries, trade deals, and quotes from former PBOs. Konanz questions the actual delivery of promised funds. Turnbull touts the government's new budget cycle.
Tariffs on Russian fertilizer Scott Reid questions the 35% tariff on Russian fertilizer, arguing it hurts Canadian farmers without impacting Russia. Ryan Turnbull defends the tariff as a necessary measure to support Ukraine against Russian aggression and incentivize importers to seek alternative sources. Both MPs claim strong support for Ukraine.
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Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Mr. Speaker, the problem is not as much with the courts as it is with the speed of justice that the government feels they need to pursue. When it comes to the issue of Liberal bail, they Liberals say they have been waiting for that, they are waiting for this, they are waiting for a trade deal. They are waiting and waiting. Canadians are tired of waiting for the Liberals. They use lots of nice words, but it is time to act and it is time to move forward on so many files, including this one.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville Québec

Liberal

Madeleine Chenette LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Identity and Culture and Minister responsible for Official Languages and to the Secretary of State (Sport)

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief. Considering the sense of urgency, considering its importance to the future and to the victims and considering the need to find solutions, is my colleague truly willing to work with us to find solutions quickly and get this bill passed?

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5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Mr. Speaker, we will see what the amendments are and what the process brings.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to such an important piece of legislation.

I have listened to the entire debate thus far on this legislation, and I must say that it is a little disappointing. All members of this House really need to recognize the essence of why we have Bill C-11 before us. I have heard many comments with regard to individuals. I have heard many comments with regard to members' opinions about what the government is or is not doing. I have heard a lot of misinformation being put on the record.

I had thought this legislation would be well received, and to such a degree that we would be talking more about the victims and why it is important that the House of Commons pass this legislation.

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5:50 p.m.

An hon. member

You had 10 years.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I was just heckled that we had 10 years, and I plan on addressing that head-on.

Hopefully we will see the official opposition at least acknowledge the reality, as opposed to trying to continue to mislead. That is what we have witnessed today. Individuals trying to follow the debate would have a false impression after listening to Conservative after Conservative stand up to speak. Some speeches I really enjoyed, especially certain aspects of the speeches, for example when members opposite stand up and talk about victims. That is truly why the government, for years now, has been moving forward on dealing with the recommendations. It is all about the victims.

I have had the opportunity, privilege and honour to serve in the Canadian military. I was an air traffic control assistant posted in Edmonton, and I had wonderful opportunities to serve in our forces for just over three years. Whether they are marching with World War II veterans or sitting in a tower in Lancaster Park, I have the deepest amount of respect for the men and women who have served in many different capacities.

In many ways, we are the envy of the world because of our Canadian Forces and the many contributions they have provided, whether through peacekeeping abroad, participating in protecting our freedoms and the rule of law, being in countries abroad during world wars, fighting the mighty Red River when it was flooding the city of Winnipeg, fighting forest fires or stepping up during the pandemic. As I know my colleagues have and as all of us should have, I have an immense amount of respect for the work done by the personnel who make up our Canadian Forces.

When I think about why this is an important piece of legislation, it provides a very strong message to members in the forces today. As much as we value and appreciate what they do for Canadians day in and day out, we too appreciate their need for certainty. We want changes so that every member of the Canadian Forces can feel safe in their environment.

I heard a number of members talk about specific files where there was sexual abuse or sexual harassment. We know that takes place. That is the reason we have had studies take place.

The number of recommendations from former chief justice Arbour was 48. Bill C-11 deals specifically with recommendation 5. I actually printed off all the recommendations. I want to read recommendation 5 so that people who are following the debate will get a really good understanding of why we have the legislation before us.

These 48 recommendations are recommendations that the government has been proactively working on, virtually from day one after they were brought into being. On budgetary expenditures, in the 2022 budget, I believe there was somewhere in the neighbourhood of close to $100 million over a number of years that was actually allocated. On legislative actions, today we have Bill C-11 dealing with recommendation 5.

It is important to recognize, contrary to the misinformation coming from the other side, that the government has been taking action. Let there be absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the government has not only taken the issue seriously but is also taking specific actions to deal with it. The best example I could give is the fact that, as of right now, there is a very real chance that all 48 recommendations will be dealt with before the end of this year. The one that is causing the problem is one that I believe every member in the chamber actually supports, at least in principle.

I will read the actual recommendation from the former chief justice:

Criminal Code sexual offences should be removed from the jurisdiction of the CAF. They should be prosecuted exclusively in civilian criminal courts in all cases. Where the offence takes place in Canada, it should be investigated by civilian police forces at the earliest opportunity. Where the offence takes place outside of Canada, the [military police] may act in the first instance to safeguard evidence and commence an investigation, but should liaise with civilian law enforcement at the earliest possible opportunity.

That is the recommendation. It is the only recommendation that compels the government to bring in legislation. Ultimately, we did not wait for the legislation to appear before us. We actually took action within a year of the interim report to ensure that we had prosecutions and investigations taking place in a civilian setting. That is how important it was for us.

I do not recall any of the Conservatives pointing out that this is the case. Rather, they amplified that nothing has been done. In fact, hundreds have actually gone in that direction. The legislation is to put it into law permanently. That is the purpose of Bill C-11. It would then put us in full compliance with that particular recommendation.

Then we hear the Conservatives again trying to give the false impression that we are sitting on it and not respecting the principles of recommendation 5.

What is worse is that, if a political entity in the House has prevented the legislation from becoming law, it is the Conservative Party of Canada; the Conservatives just do not realize it. Seriously, do they not remember what was taking place last year? Do members remember when they were jumping up and down, demanding their privileges and points of order and saying they were going to shut down Parliament?

I remember the hours and days, going into weeks and weeks, when the Conservatives refused to get anything passed. Where was that caring attitude for the victims then? That was all tossed aside because the Conservatives were more interested in their own political fortunes than they were in the victims.

If we take a look at the legislation, it was actually introduced as Bill C-66 back in September of last year. They had the opportunity to provide comment on it. They did in part, but then they came up with that game because they were more interested in having an election. They will have to excuse me for not being overly sympathetic when they try to give the false impression that, as a government, we ignored the situation. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the end of the day, we had taken action to ensure that victims of sexual abuse and harassment within the military were going through the civil system. That is the fact, but they deny that.

Then, the Conservatives have the brevity to try to say that the Liberals are the reason the law itself has not been enacted.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

You may be able to heckle something across the way, but all you have to do is read Hansard.

Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is factually true and the Conservatives know that. Last year at this time, they were a destructive force on the floor of the House of Commons, refusing to let legislation pass, period, end of story. That was their attitude. It was a minority government back then too.

At the end of the day, I appeal to the members, especially the new members, because I can appreciate that the new members were not here during the Conservative debacle to see the destructive force. I can say to those new members that we have an opportunity.

I can tell that every member who has spoken today, from all political entities, seems to be supporting the principles of Bill C-11.

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6 p.m.

An hon. member

Right, then sit down. Let's go.

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6 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

I will tell you what: If you agree to pass it, I will sit down right now.

Mr. Speaker, I suspect if I did that, the Conservatives would not be done talking. At the end of the day, if everyone supports the principle of the legislation, then why not let it go to committee? Why oppose it going to committee?

You had the chance last year and you blew it. You have another chance this year. If you want to give some credibility to some of the comments that Conservatives were putting on the record when they talked about the victims, at the very least, recognize—

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6 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker John Nater

Order.

The hon. member for Cariboo—Prince George is rising on a point of order.

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6 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Winnipeg North has been here long enough. He knows he needs to be directing his comments through you, the Chair. He continues to answer and go through and say “you” and use those terms. I ask that he show respect to you, Mr. Speaker.

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6:05 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker John Nater

I think the member realized the error of his ways. There is a little back-and-forth going on right now, so I would encourage all members on both sides to remember to address their comments through the Chair and keep the heckling to a minimal dull roar, if possible.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that this might be the first time the member has actually had a valid point of order. I apologize for using the wrong wording, but the facts remain. At the end of the day, we can in fact send a very strong and powerful message on Bill C-11 by allowing the legislation to pass. Some of the members of the Conservatives are going to say, “Whoa, just wait a minute; we brought it in only today, and we have had only eight hours of debate on the bill.”

The Conservatives have a shadow minister dealing with justice who introduced a private member's bill, and he is arguing that it should be passed virtually instantly. Fortunately for him, because it is a private member's bill even though it would make substantial changes, there are going to be only two hours of debate for second reading. We have had three or four times that already. Then it is going to go to committee, where it is going to be timed, and then it will come back, and that is because it happens to be a private member's bill even though it is proposing to make profound changes to our judicial system.

If the political will is there, we all know that the legislation before us could go to committee. What is the advantage of its going to committee now? I would suggest that by allowing the bill to go to committee, members opposite would be able to share their concerns and to look at potential amendments and propose them. If they have a substantial good idea, they should be able to convince other members to support it. After all, it can pass only if we get more than one political entity in the House in favour of it, so if they are really convinced on their arguments, or they want to have a good, thorough discussion at the committee stage, why hold off and why wait? They can tell me the justification.

I have had a Conservative member say that there is virtually no difference between Bill C-66 and the bill that is before us. The member could be right. I do not know all the details of it, but let me assume that the Conservative member was accurate in the statement he made. If that is the case, Bill C-66 was introduced in January 2024 or March 2024, so the Conservatives have had ample time to deal with what is within the legislation.

Surely to goodness, if the Conservatives have some amendments, they should be primed and ready to go. Once we get the bill out of committee, then it is back here in the House, and many members can speak once again to it, but let us at least get it to the committee stage so we can be in a position before the end of the year to actually pass the legislation and have it receive royal assent. Would that not be nice?

We have an opportunity to meet all 48 of the recommendations, and I would encourage my colleagues opposite, if they are genuine when they say they want to have further discussions and debates and look at possible amendments to the legislation, to allow it to get to that stage.

Having said all that, I want to provide a very quick comment in regard to the military overall, and the reason I want to do that is that many people kind of went off track in their discussions on it, even me possibly, to a certain degree, but when it comes to the military, our new Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence and the Liberal caucus have done an incredible job of ensuring that we are going to be able to achieve the 2%, a commitment the Prime Minister has made. I know it would make a difference, but when we talk about victims, or about military expenditures and the many things we are doing for the members who serve in our forces, we know we can always do better, and we will strive to do that.

However, let us at least acknowledge that, at the end of the day, since having a new Prime Minister, the file on the Canadian Forces has been moving forward, second to no other prime minister in the last 40 to 50 years. I believe the Prime Minister will continue to ensure that the men and women of the Canadian Forces are being looked after in every way, which includes seeing Bill C-11 become the law of the land.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary said this debate is all about the victims, and one of the victims was navy Lieutenant Patrick White, who testified before the defence committee last year about the navy leadership's attempts, under the Liberal government, to cover up the sexual assault committed against him by Officer X. Today, we learned that the witness and victim, Patrick White, has been fired by the military. He was supposed to be protected by parliamentary privilege as a witness.

If the government cannot protect witnesses with the full power of Parliament, how can we trust the government that the legislation will prevent sexual misconduct instead of just covering it up?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will not go into any details on specific files, but I think it is safe to say that shifting the responsibility from military court procedures to civilian control is a very strong positive, and that is what this legislation would do. It is based on recommendation 5 of Madam Arbour's 48 recommendations.

I hope that members of the forces and other interested people following the debate will recognize that not only are we trying to advance legislation, but we have ensured that certain actions have taken place for a number of years to protect victims.

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6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that my colleague from Winnipeg North would agree with me that, in an organization as hierarchical as the Canadian Armed Forces, we cannot allow a code of silence to hide sexual abuse or discrimination, or allow it to exist at the highest levels of the armed forces. We cannot have a system where those responsible for judging it are part of it, and military justice clearly failed miserably in this case.

To reassure my colleague, I want him to know that the Bloc Québécois supports the bill and will work in committee.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I recognize that the Bloc has been very supportive of the legislation. I would suggest that Bloc members being as candid about the legislation as they have been sends a very strong message in favour of protecting victims. I appreciate and respect that.

We need to look at ways to possibly enhance the legislation. One thing I have heard from Bloc members is that they have some reservations, so I look forward to seeing the bill go to committee and providing Bloc members and others the opportunity to make changes that would give the legislation more strength.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Mr. Speaker, for many years, Canada has opened the doors for women to be part of the Canadian Armed Forces, but unfortunately, they have not had justice when they faced sexual discrimination or sexual misconduct.

Bill C-11 offers an opportunity to take these particular issues out of the military justice system and into the civilian courts. Can the member talk about why that is an important development and how it would make sure that victims of sexual assault and sexual misconduct have an opportunity to have their case heard fairly?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the forces and the military should not be evaluating their own bad behaviour. I appreciate the member's comments. Back in the early 1980s when I was serving, there was a certain mentality there, but I believe it has improved dramatically since those days.

I can honestly say that when we pass legislation of this nature, it sends an even stronger message to young women, minorities and all members of the forces so they know they have the backing of the government, because it provides clarity. The more we can provide clarity, the healthier our forces will be.

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6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Speaker, I take this very seriously. I believe the member for Winnipeg North is a veteran, so I understand he has skin in the game, too, and takes it seriously as well.

For the last 10 years, I have been here, working respectively across all party lines. We know the government filibustered the defence committee for three months. We know the Prime Minister's Office covered up the investigation on former minister of national defence Harjit Sajjan.

How, for 10 years, have they allowed this injustice for the victims of sexual assault to go on? The member says they have been doing something, but we know they have not been, because we have heard it. We heard it first-hand from the victims of sexual assault, those who are still enlisted and those who have left the service because of the trauma caused by MST.

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6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, this is what I mean about false impressions, because if we were to listen to what the member just finished saying, one would be of the opinion that nothing has been taking place. For example, I can recall, I believe it was Bill C-77, where we had the declaration of victims rights. I can remember speaking to that bill years ago. This was a Liberal government initiative.

I have talked endlessly today about Bill C-11, and how it is one of 48 recommendations. Out of those 48 recommendations, we are hoping to achieve 47 of them before the end of this year. If the Conservatives were to get on side, we could do 48, but only if we can pass Bill C-11.

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6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, we know Canadians' trust on this subject and in the government has been deeply eroded, especially given what has happened over the last 10 years. As someone who spent nearly three decades in policing, I know accountability is not about changing titles. It is about having and enforcing proper oversight.

How does this bill ensure military prosecutors and police are not only independent on paper, but also in practice, free from command influence or retaliation?

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the legislation and the actions we have taken in the last number of years has ensured victims of sexual abuse or harassment are going though the civilian system today. It is the law enforcement agencies.

For example, and I use this as a hypothetical example, if there were an issue that arose in the city of Winnipeg, I suspect it might be the City of Winnipeg police that would do the investigating, and it would be then the province that would do the prosecuting. I know there are some discrepancies, because it still all needs to be worked out, but this is already happening today, at least in part. It is about having faith and confidence in our judicial system.

Bill C-11 Military Justice System Modernization ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to get my colleague's perspective on today's debate.

Why does he think some Conservative members are framing this in partisan terms, blaming the Liberals for prorogation of Parliament and delaying Bill C-66, when they themselves were calling for an election? Given the importance of moving forward with the amended bill, especially improvements that could be done at the committee stage, do you believe we can work together to pass the bill and protect the victims?