Debates of May 4th, 2026

Bill C-11—Time Allocation Motion

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, let me begin by thanking my colleagues for being here to debate this important issue. I would remind the member across the floor that for 10 years Mr. Harper did nothing about this issue. The Conservatives did not bring a single proposed legislative amendment or change to the whole question of this regime.

What we have decided is that delivering culture change is not only the right thing to do, but it is critical for our operational needs for national security. It is not a partisan issue, as hard as he would like to make it so. My colleague does not recall that we introduced Bill C-11 to codify in law key recommendations from two distinguished judges of the Supreme Court, justices Arbour and Fish, and to rebuild victims' and survivors' trust in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Most importantly, Justice Arbour's fifth recommendation calls for the removal of Canadian Armed Forces jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute Criminal Code sexual offences. Through Bill C-11, we would be implementing this recommendation exactly as we promised. What we heard from former Supreme Court justices Fish and Arbour, as well as from the chief of the defence staff, military justice experts, victims and survivors, is that these changes are long overdue.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, New Tecumseth—Gwillimbury, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am looking at this bill now, and I would like to know why the Liberal government is prioritizing speed over getting this legislation right for veterans and survivors. The government had 10 years to do something, and now we see it again moving closure. Could the minister comment on that, please?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. We went through a process in committee, an important process. I appeared on this bill. Unfortunately, virtually every substantive amendment put forward by the opposition parties has been ruled out of order by the Speaker's office. As a result of that, we are in the position now where we are, basically, moving forward.

There is a lot at stake here for the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces. The discussion around political interference is just unfortunate talk. The important thing here is that we are going to be making changes to address long-standing concerns raised by victims and survivors of the Canadian Armed Forces community. It is a suite of targeted amendments to modernize the military justice system.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-11 is a concrete example of the Liberal government's lack of leadership. The Liberals have been in power for 10 years and, what is more, held a majority from 2015 to 2019. However, they waited for a public scandal before reforming the military justice system. Justice Arbour's report showed that the system was failing to protect victims.

I have a simple question for my colleague. Why did they wait for a public scandal before taking action?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a question of opportunity. We introduced the bill and reintroduced it in the House of Commons. It went through the normal process, and it was Justice Arbour herself who predicted that it would take a few years to bring about fundamental changes. That is exactly where we are now. The hon. member knows this; he is aware of the situation, and we hope to make progress today.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as we are now debating not Bill C-11 itself but time allocation, I would like to remind my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence and cast his mind back to when the Liberals were the third party in the House and the Harper Conservatives used time allocation over and over again. In those days, those of us back in this corner would say frequently that we did not need time allocation, that we should properly debate and that the routine use of time allocation is anti-democratic. I hold to that view no matter who is holding the reins of power.

It is anti-democratic to shut down debate early. This is why I will be voting no to time allocation. I do support pursuing Madam Justice Arbour's recommendations, but I do not like being bulldozed.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me an opportunity to talk a little more about what is in the bill.

We would be codifying in law that the Canadian Armed Forces no longer have jurisdiction over Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada. We would be codifying in law that civilian authorities have exclusive jurisdiction for investigating and prosecuting these Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada. We would be establishing a victim liaison officer to be provided to victims throughout the transfer of cases, regardless of jurisdiction. We would be elevating the role of key justice actors to increase their independence, among other fundamental changes, which I know my colleague, as a lawyer, understands would be important in strengthening not only that justice be seen to be done, but that it actually be done.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it sure did not take long for the Liberals to show their true character. Time allocation and closure motions are the kind of stuff we do when we want to ram things through without proper debate. I know my constituents expect me to come here and to thoroughly debate every single piece of legislation, to ensure that every avenue has been explored. They expect that we go down every rabbit hole and that we know what we are ending up with is a product we can all be pleased with.

I think the justice system needs to be modernized. This has become clear at committee. I think it would be prudent for us to make sure we listen to the survivors and victims of the sexual abuse that has happened in the military to make sure this act really represents the justice they deserve.

Has the minister personally met with any of the victims or survivors of sexual abuse in the military?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Justices Arbour and Fish conducted extensive outreach and consultations with victims, survivors, members of the Canadian Armed Forces, their families, military justice experts and constitutional experts to get this right. In fact, the chief of the defence staff, General Jennie Carignan, in her previous role as chief of personnel and professional conduct, also undertook extensive consultations with over 14,000 individuals. What Justice Arbour, Justice Fish and the chief of the defence staff heard, and revealed in their reports, is that there is a lack of trust in the military justice system, in large part due to instances of real and perceived interference from the chain of command into sexual misconduct matters.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is really important for us to recognize that former Supreme Court Justice Arbour put in a great deal of effort. She consulted and listened to hundreds, if not thousands, of direct or indirect opinions on the issue. The core of the issue is the transfer of cases from the military courts to the civilian courts. This has been in the works now for a while. There have been all sorts of debates and discussion, whether at second reading or in the standing committee. There are those in the chamber who would never see this legislation pass.

Does the minister not agree that the principle of the legislation is being supported in such a way that the legislation needs to pass in the House of Commons?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, after a year-long review of DND and CAF, Justice Arbour said this: “the handling of sexual misconduct by military justice has eroded trust and morale” among the organization. She recommended in recommendation five that the civilian system be given exclusive jurisdiction. We agree.

Bill C-11 would address her recommendation five, that Criminal Code sexual offences alleged against CAF members in Canada should be investigated and prosecuted exclusively in the civilian system. Military justice experts tell us this would provide greater legal clarity, greater legal certainty, to all actors in the justice system and would better serve victims and survivors.

My colleague is right. We have to get this done on behalf of the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are just over a week into the Liberals' sneaky majority, which they got through backdoor deals, and this is the piece of legislation they have decided they are going to ram through and curtail debate. What is this piece of legislation we are talking about? This is a piece of legislation about sexual assault and listening to our veterans. The Liberals are choosing to put political expediency ahead of the needs of victims and our veterans or even listening to our military members. This is all par for the course.

I have seen this in Cold Lake at 4 Wing. We still do not have an answer as to when we are going to get all 88 of the F-35s in, because they do not seem to care. This is just a pattern of abuse from the government of not putting veterans and our armed forces members first.

The question is simple. Will the Liberals admit they are wrong on this and let the debate continue?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have had the chance to visit Cold Lake. The member has voted against every military investment, including $4 billion for that base. She has had a chance.

Bill C-11 would bolster trust in the military justice system by providing, as I said, legal clarity, as recommended by Justice Arbour. It would enhance the independence of key military justice actors, as recommended by former Justice Fish. For example, by elevating positions of key military justice actors to Governor in Council appointees, we would insulate them from real or perceived influence from the chain of command.

The brave women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are always there to keep Canada safe. It is our obligation, all of us in this House, to keep them safe from harassment and misconduct.

[Connie Cody, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, today Parliament opened with the words “freedom, opportunity and peace”, something we all get to enjoy. We are enjoying that because of the veterans and those who continue to fight for us and for all Canadians, and now they are asking us to help them, protect them and speak on behalf of their voices.

Why is the government shutting down their voices and closing debate with its manufactured majority?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

As I mentioned a moment ago, which I will repeat for the member's benefit, Mr. Speaker, this is entirely about trust. It is about trust for the women and men in our armed forces today, for them to know that when it comes to Criminal Code sexual offences, they will be prosecuted and investigated on the outside of the department and the Canadian Armed Forces.

In fact, that has been the case since the fall of 2021. The member may not be aware that every new case has been referred to the civilian courts since the fall of 2021. As a result, we are seeing progress, trust is enhanced, and were we to formalize this, it would give us more clarity and certainty.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is transferring sexual offence cases to the civilian courts. They are being taken out of the military system. The problem is that the government is already incapable of making the justice system work, especially when it comes to appointing judges. Quebec is short five judges and Canada is short 27. Victims do not need a change in system. They need justice. For that to happen, the federal government must do its job: It must appoint judges.

Does the government intend to appoint judges as quickly as possible and give the system the resources it needs, instead of just passing the buck?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member raises an important question.

We recognize that the transfer of Criminal Code sexual offence cases from the military justice system to the civilian justice system is a complex process. That is exactly why we are signing memoranda of understanding with the provinces. It is to make sure they have the means to deal with those additional cases. We have already signed a successful memorandum of understanding with the Province of Ontario, and work is ongoing with other provinces.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence admitted at committee that he took an old bill, Bill C-66, and brought it back to the current Parliament as Bill C-11. He never talked to anybody in the veterans community. He did not reach out and talk to members in the justice system within CAF. He never talked to anyone at the provincial level about the problems they are having in carrying on these prosecutions.

If he had listened to veterans, and read the testimony that appeared in committee, they would have told him that they do not have faith in the civilian system, especially for low-level sexual misconduct; that they are going to be dismissed; and that there is then no recourse within the military system for any sort of administrative or disciplinary measures against those offenders. If he had been listening, he would have heard from police stations and police organizations across the country, as well as lawyers, saying to give victims the choice, so that they could choose which system they believe they are most comfortable in, whether it was the military system or the civilian system.

If he listened to his own members of the Canadian Armed Forces, like the director of military prosecutions, like the director of defence counsel services, like the provost marshal general of the Canadian Armed Forces, they would have told him that they are all now at a better place, five years since the Arbour report, to actually bring in the changes that are needed to do what is right.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member omits to tell the Canadian people watching the debate that as of the fall of 2021, all of these cases have been sent to civilian courts.

He cannot have it both ways. There has been important progress and tangible changes since 2021. This is precisely because the interim directive that put Justice Arbour's recommendation five into place in a temporary manner, until such time as legislation could be passed through the House, continues. Work on cultural evolution inside the CAF has continued. We have now implemented 47 of Justice Arbour's 48 recommendations. To block Arbour's recommendation five would be to undo the progress of the past five years. We do not have the intention of doing that.

I think the member knows this is the right way to proceed. I put my trust in the work of Madam Justice Arbour, Mr. Justice Fish and, for that matter, the chief of the defence staff.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is being rather arrogant, and I think we need to call it out. The Liberals have had several of the amendments from the Standing Committee on National Defence struck down. They were important amendments.

After securing a majority thanks to the floor crossers, the government decided to completely sideline all of the committee's work, even though the general election produced a minority government. For now, it is the floor crossers who are enabling the government to give itself all the power and override the will of the people, who entrusted it with a minority mandate so that it would collaborate. I do not understand why the government does not respect the idea that we must work together. It is not respecting the committee's work.

I have a simple question for the government. Can it explain why it is not respecting the work of the parliamentary committees and the elected parliamentarians who represent the public?

It cannot claim to represent the full spectrum of views based on the floor crossers it used to secure a majority. Democracy thrives on a multiplicity of voices. Right now, the government is completely excluding those voices.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a large majority of these amendments were ruled out of order by the Speaker of the House of Commons. That is not exactly helpful.

In recent years, we have made considerable progress towards bringing about significant and lasting cultural change, notably by working to implement 47 of Justice Arbour's 48 recommendations.

This bill proposes transformative measures to transfer the investigation and prosecution of sexual offences allegedly committed in Canada by members of the CAF to the civilian system. This bill also implements Justice Fish's key recommendations aimed at strengthening the military justice system. Now is the right time to move forward.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to recognize how we have enhanced our military, whether it is increasing their budget to 2% of GDP or providing support for CAF members. Just recently the minister made an announcement of 7,000-plus new applications to join the forces. It is all about credibility. The minister sees the value of bringing forward this legislation.

I am disappointed that the Conservative Party of Canada is now in opposition to it. It is interesting, because two weeks ago I did not hear the Conservatives crying about it or saying that they were going to oppose the legislation. It is coming back to the House and now they have taken the position of having the full intention of debating it endlessly so that it does not pass.

My question is for the minister. In terms of continuity and reinforcing confidence in the forces, this is one of the reason why—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

The hon. Minister of National Defence.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we have made a decision. We are going to be rebuilding, rearming and reinvesting in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Inherent in that rebuilding, rearming and reinvesting is the important question of bolstering trust in the military justice system by providing legal clarity, as recommended by Justice Arbour, and by enhancing the independence of key military justice actors, as recommended by former Justice Fish. We are moving forward.

The member makes an important point. The Canadian Armed Forces and all the work that we are doing there begins with our people. We need to make sure they can work in a safe, transparent, robust workplace. If there are challenges, members of the armed forces need to know that the legal system that is there to protect them will in fact work.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister went to the Canadian people and said that he was going to move at speeds unseen in generations. We thought that was for major projects, and that is not what we have seen.

Now what we are seeing is speeds moving and steamrolling over committees and over the co-operative work of this House. Is that what the Prime Minister meant by moving at speeds unseen in generations, ignoring the will of this House through the committee network?