Grant McNally

[Supply, March 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know this is a very important debate in the House. The minister on many occasions has said the Alliance has not raised questions about the agriculture issue, but we have, and I think it would be incumbent upon the government to have at least one minister of the crown here to—

[Parliamentarians' Code Of Conduct, March 15th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, on February 19 I asked two questions about the ongoing Shawinigan scandal involving the Prime Minister in the Grand-Mère Golf Club. The answers provided by the Deputy Prime Minister were simply unsatisfactory.

Let us examine the facts around the Prime Minister's ownership of the golf course. He apparently sold his shares in 1993 upon becoming Prime Minister. However that deal fell through and the Prime Minister did not receive payment. He contacted the ethics counsellor to inform him of this and the ethics counsellor has admitted the Prime Minister could have lost money on his investment had the value of the golf course property decreased.

One way to ensure the value of the golf course property did not decrease was by ensuring the neighbouring Grand-Mère Inn remained afloat financially. This is where the Prime Minister became involved and how taxpayer dollars started to flow.

Here are the facts. First, a $164,000 TJF grant was given for expansion of the inn. By the way, the owner who took the inn off the Prime Minister's hands, a friend of the Prime Minister named Yvon Duhaime, had been convicted of drunk driving, assault and uttering threats. Unfortunately he forgot to mention those details when applying for the grant. I wonder why.

We have since learned that he was involved in a high speed chase through Shawinigan going 127 kilometres an hour in a 50 kilometre an hour zone and was again charged with drunk driving. This is the person who was apparently just a constituent of the Prime Minister's. He was a friend of the Prime Minister, a fairly unsavoury character who had been involved in all kinds of things.

Second, there is the famous loan for $615,000 from the Business Development Bank to the inn which the Prime Minister helped arrange via personal phone calls to the president of the bank. The Prime Minister in a 1999 letter to the National Post , said he had no direct or indirect personal connection with the hotel. Revelations to the contrary have since become common knowledge. By the way, the president, Mr. Beaudoin, was fired shortly after the bank called in the loan.

Third, $2.3 million was put into the inn via the immigrant investor fund. The Prime Minister met with Louis Leblanc, a broker who organized where the funds were directed. The next day, March 1, 1996, the money started to flow. By the way, the Prime Minister originally denied that immigrant investor funds had been sunk into the inn. It has become crystal clear that the Prime Minister has been very involved in the Grand-Mère Inn.

The Prime Minister helped secure funds for his friend and owner of the inn. As a byproduct it can be argued that he helped ensure that he did not lose on the value of the golf course shares for which he was not paid until 1999. It is clear to Canadians that the shenanigans in Shawinigan involving the Prime Minister remain unanswered.

Why has the Prime Minister told so many different versions about his involvement with the shares of his golf course and about his involvement with the BDC loan for his friend?

Why will the Prime Minister not clear the air by undertaking an independent inquiry into all the details in his own backyard? What is it that the Prime Minister does not want Canadians to know in regard to his dealings with these shaky situations in Shawinigan?

Canadians want answers to these very serious questions. When will they be answered by the Prime Minister?

[Parliamentarians' Code Of Conduct, March 15th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend my colleague, the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, for bringing forward this important motion. This is a topic that has garnered the attention of many people across the country and obviously of all members of parliament, because as elected people in the country who are representing our constituents we want to provide leadership.

We have seen some examples of difficulties with ethical behaviour or the appearance of conflict in regard to the Prime Minister's dealings in Shawinigan, which is well documented and which I will be touching on.

I spent 10 years as a teacher before I became a member of parliament. I know that there was a very well defined code of conduct that we had as educators who are put in positions of trust working with children, parents, colleagues and different levels of the administration. If that code of conduct was compromised, of course there were some very serious consequences.

It is worth revisiting this notion of having a code of conduct for members of parliament. We would hope that there would be sound judgment used by all members at all times and that such a debate would not be necessary, but it seems as though some examples have brought this forward again and there does need to be a code of conduct.

I want to touch on a particular example that was brought to my attention regarding the actions of one of our current colleagues, that being the member for Waterloo—Wellington, in his riding during the recent federal election. He is a parliamentary secretary. He represents a minister of the crown. He wrote a letter during the campaign which was viewed as very inappropriate by members of his own community. I will not go into all of the specifics, but perhaps I will highlight some of the things the community mentioned.

The member for Waterloo—Wellington wrote a letter which residents of the Morningside Retirement Village in New Hamburg in his riding were very concerned about. In fact, they were shocked that such a provocative letter from the incumbent member would come forward. In fact, I will quote directly from a member of the community. Maryjean Brown, the director of a retirement complex within the community, said “I couldn't believe that kind of letter could be read at that kind of gathering of people”.

Basically what happened was that the member of parliament wrote a letter attacking some of the members of this retirement community for some of their alleged responses to somebody who worked for him.

I will quote from the letter the member wrote. He stated:

The reason I raise this with you is because we discreetly followed half of these men and were astounded to discover they were residents of Morningside.

He went on to say that he understands that most of the residents are “decent, law-abiding, God-fearing and kind individuals” but then said:

Next time this occurs, I will be pressing charges against these weak and hideous men under the Ontario Human Rights Code, and will be happy to make their name or names national headlines across Canada.

This was something one of our colleagues wrote in a letter on his parliamentary secretary letterhead to people in his community during the election campaign, which the people of the community viewed as very inappropriate. Obviously on the face of it, I think all of us would be surprised by such a thing. This was an issue that was brought forward during the campaign. Some of the people in the community commented on this and were quite surprised by this action. I will again quote again Ms. Brown, the director of the retirement village, who said:

If it had to be brought up, it should have been brought up by himself instead of sending somebody else to do his dirty work. Everybody here is very, very upset about it.

He had this letter read at a public meeting rather than attending himself.

This is a very specific example of a member who is one of our colleagues and who used his privileges as a parliamentary secretary in a way which many would deem to be inappropriate. If members have difficulty with lack of judgment in this kind of example, then I think it is a thing we need to discuss as members, because we need to be showing leadership in this area.

I will turn from that unfortunate incident to talk a bit about the Shawinigan affair. I will also rebut a few of the comments made by my colleague, the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, when he talked about the ethics counsellor.

My colleague for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough gave a good summary of the ethics counsellor debate that we had not long ago and how the government voted down a promise in its own red book. It was a motion brought forward by the Alliance and supported by all members in the House.

My colleague from the government side mentioned that the ethics counsellor does report to parliament. What he neglected to point out was that he reports to parliament at committee when called as a witness for estimates or some other thing. What my colleague did not say, because it is not the case, is that reports by the ethics counsellor are not tabled in the House of Commons. The ethics counsellor does not report directly to parliament on any investigations or provide any information, such as was brought forward with the Shawinigan case.

The Canadian Alliance had a motion before the House that would have required the ethics counsellor to report to the House and to table reports in the House so that all members could be made aware of the facts. It would have been a far greater thing for members of cabinet to be cleared of any wrongdoing. If all documents and reports were tabled before the House and there was no wrongdoing there would be no wondering about what was in the report. It would be a good thing.

We certainly could not understand why the government defeated our motion, which was, in large part I believe, some of my Conservative colleague's motivation for bringing forward his motion today. We need to have a debate about ethical conduct in the House of Commons.

It is unfortunate that the circumstances surrounding the Prime Minister on a daily basis have not gone away and continue to percolate, even today in question period. Circumstances like that are ones that bring into question the ethical behaviour of members of parliament.

British Columbia has a very strict code of conduct for members of the legislative assembly. I have talked to some members of the provincial government who have told me that their code of conduct legislation states that even if there is an appearance of a conflict of interest an investigation will be done and, from what I understand, such reports are tabled in the provincial legislature. That is far different from the ethics counsellor process we have debated here today.

We should be considering some changes. If we want to restore confidence in this place in the minds and hearts of people, then we need to work together on many issues in the House. We have done that on some occasions in this parliament already. We did so on the motion in regard to the sex offender registry, which we voted on this week. In large part, we had agreement today in the softwood lumber debate. We did not have the same agreement on the ethics counsellor motion, which was unfortunate because it was designed to restore confidence in the minds of those we govern that we are serious about ethical behaviour.

Members of the Alliance Party will continue to work together to find ways to solve important issues in this place. I commend my colleague for bringing forward this important motion.

[Supply, March 15th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, obviously the member for Waterloo—Wellington is again using his extremist divisive tactics which is unfortunate. There is agreement among other members of the House, including his own government, on the motion.

What does my colleague see as being the most important issue? How might we be able to move forward together to solve the issue of softwood lumber, which is so important in my riding and across the country?

[Supply, March 15th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I thank you and the minister for allowing us to have an extended question period on this topic. That was a noble gesture by both yourself and the minister.

The question I have for my colleague from Vancouver Quadra has to do with the linkage of free trade and the softwood lumber agreement with other sectors of trade. That spectre was raised by the Prime Minister, but there were some contradictory comments made by other ministers of the crown. Would the member agree with the notion that was raised by the Prime Minister that perhaps we should link the free trade agreement with other sectors, such as energy, or should we not go down that route? What would his opinion be on that?

[Supply, March 15th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, the forest industry is very important in my riding of Dewdney—Alouette. We have many mills there. The shingle industry is very important. It provides a lot of jobs in the community for many people.

I want to pursue the notion of the quota aspect of the agreement. It really limits individuals from being able to maximize the potential of the industry. It excludes others from becoming involved in the industry. It has, in many ways, hurt a lot of different individuals and has had ripple effects throughout the community within my riding.

What does my colleague think is the problem with the government's response to vigorously pursuing the notion of free trade, particularly in the area of softwood lumber?

[Canada Shipping Act, 2001, March 14th, 2001]

The member on the Liberal side who was a Conservative is saying that his former party—or maybe he is saying his party—is going down like the Titanic . I am not sure that all members would agree with him on that. Perhaps some would.

The point about reporting to parliament is an important one. We saw in this place today an example of what happens when a minister of the crown does not report to parliament and does not present a piece of legislation first in this place before holding a briefing and giving information about an important piece of legislation, in this case Bill C-15, the justice bill. The minister's department gave information to the media first, excluding members of parliament from attending the briefing, saying that it was an embargoed briefing.

I know that Mr. Speaker will be ruling on the matter, but I think it is worth mentioning again in this place that the government needs to follow the proper procedures and process to restore people's faith in this place and that we are in fact the leaders in terms of what we are doing with legislation and moving forward together.

What happened here today is an example of why it is important to follow process. Unfortunately the Minister of Justice did not do that. We are disappointed with that.

My time is growing short. I will wrap up my comments knowing that I will have more time at another sitting of the House to discuss this important bill.

I thank my Liberal colleagues for their agreement with what I have said today and for their comments and congratulations. We hope to see them working together with us on many other issues.

[Canada Shipping Act, 2001, March 14th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments made by my colleague from Prince Albert. He of course hails from the area one of our previous right hon. prime ministers, the Right Hon. John Diefenbaker, and he is obviously upholding the tradition of statesmanship and speaking up for important issues across Canada. I applaud him for that.

Hon. members on the other side are congratulating the member from Prince Albert, and I congratulate them for being so receptive to a new member. That shows they are willing to work with the Alliance, and we in the Alliance appreciate that.

I would like to talk about Bill C-14. There are many parts of the bill that have to do with the protection of our environment. Those are the parts of the bill that caught my attention and I had the opportunity to look through them. The Alliance is, of course, the party that cares about the environment. We in the Alliance care about our environment and we are looking for ways to work with others in the House, with members from other parties and from the government side, and to work together on important issues like the environment.

The environment is of great concern to us. We need to leave our country in a good state for those who are coming behind us, our children and future generations, and I would like to give some recognition to the government for including some issues having to do with the environment in the bill. I think that is a good thing.

We are looking for ways to work together in the House. When a good idea comes forward, even if it is from the government side, we will make mention of it. We would also do the same in relation to other parties and hope that others in this place would work with us in a spirit of co-operation so that we can tackle the important issues of the country. That is exactly what we are doing.

The member from the Liberal side who used to be a Conservative says it makes good sense and I appreciate what he says. Again, I agree with him on that point.

In terms of the shipbuilding industry, we do have word that the government will possibly move forward in helping to re-establish the shipping industry in our nation. We do have some concerns about that particular topic and the government's approach to that industry, such as whether it will be working on subsidizing that industry and using taxpayer dollars to support an industry which might have difficulty competing on the world market.

I hear my colleague from the other side once again commending me for my good points and I thank him for that. I truly thank him for that and for working in the new spirit of co-operation which the Alliance has initiated. We in the Alliance truly appreciate it.

We do have some concerns about the way the government might proceed on that particular issue, but we will save that for another day because I do want to make my comments pertinent to Bill C-14, the bill before the House right now.

I see that my comments are sparking great debate, ringing with agreement around the House. At this late hour of debate in the House, it is reassuring to us that government members are so attentive and in agreement with us.

When looking through Bill C-14 I did not see any mention of double hulling of ships. As a member from British Columbia, not too far away from the coast, I think it is an issue that should be explored in committee in regard to the bill, in order to protect our environment and provide protection to our marine coastal areas, which are so important to the economy on the west coast, the east coast and throughout the nation. I would like to see that point perhaps pursued in committee.

There is something in part 8 of the bill in reference to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans which reminds me of an issue in my own riding. There is an area referred to as the Codd Island wetlands, in Pitt Meadows in British Columbia. It is a very important and sensitive ecological area. Some experts are saying that it is one of the last remaining intact wetlands in the lower mainland area of Vancouver.

Right now there is concern that the area might be developed and turned into a cranberry bog. That is a concern to many people in the community. They are working to rally together to see if there might be some other solutions in order to maintain and protect this important ecological wetland. I believe there have been and will be letters to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and to the Minister of the Environment, both of whom are ministers of the crown from British Columbia.

We hope that members of my riding would have the ear of the ministers for their concerns and that a possibility might arise for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Department of the Environment to work co-operatively with the province, the local jurisdiction of Pitt Meadows and concerned citizens. We are looking for opportunities to build together to protect that area.

I know I have digressed a little from Bill C-14, but when I saw part 8 of the bill regarding the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I saw it as a good opportunity to bring up this very important issue of the Codd Island wetlands.

Also in the bill there is a reference in clause 173 to the need to report to parliament every five years in regard to this particular bill. We think reporting to parliament is a good thing.

[Canada Shipping Act, 2001, March 14th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from the Bloc is a very knowledgeable member who has spoken quite eloquently on this bill. I know she is very concerned about the environment. She has made many interventions in the House on that particular topic.

Could she elaborate on the aspects of Bill C-14 which deal with the environment and pollution? Does she think those are strong enough measures and would she be able to support them?

[Criminal Code, March 13th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, I too commend my colleague from Lethbridge for bringing forward this very important bill. I know he has worked very hard behind the scenes gathering support from many organizations, groups, police associations and those involved in having to deal with the issue firsthand.

I am encouraged tonight by the debate I have heard in the House from members of all parties who have spoken in favour of the bill. It is fitting that we would be debating this topic on the evening where we also, as was indicated by my hon. colleague from Saint John and others, worked together to support the creation of a national registry for sex offenders. It is a great accomplishment that we have been able to achieve together in the House.

Some of the debate was a little off topic today and somewhat partisan at times, but for the most part it was not. That is encouraging. The legislation fits very much into that very same category. Who could stand in the House and defend child pornography? No one has tonight and no one will. We understand the seriousness of the issue. The bill being brought forward by my colleague is another tool being offered as a way to combat a very serious issue.

By focusing on important issues, it is time that we work together in the House. We must look to build with each other on the commonalities, across party lines, including government members, to solve the issues before us. That is what people are looking for, from those of us who have been sent as leaders to this place. It is with passion, conviction and strength of mind that we must work together to solve these very serious issues.

The issue of child pornography is one that has a very great implication. Our children are our greatest resource. There is nothing we could hold more dear than the health and well-being of our children, the next generation coming up behind us, not only for ourselves as individuals, as members, as families and as communities but for the future of our country.

A big part of the health of our children has to with protecting them. We only have the opportunity to live as children once in this life. We have all experienced that. We are involved in the joys, triumphs, tragedies and moment to moment involvements with children in our families, or those without children with relatives. We know this is a very important thing to focus our attention on.

We know there are individuals involved in activities that will harm children. Child pornography is one of them. My colleague, the member for Erie—Lincoln, the parliamentary secretary, raised some very good points. I agree with what he said on those points.

He mentioned two points about the crime of child pornography creating a permanent record of the abuse of children. For that very reason it is wrong to be participating in such an action. The creation of child pornography creates victims itself. This causes not only great damage for those children who are victims of those crimes, but they are then a part of this permanent record that is being used, abused and displayed on the Internet and other ways. It is at the very hub of this issue.

It violates what is right. It is wrong to be involved in child pornography. It causes children to be abused by creating a permanent record of that. My colleague's bill attempts to address that. The bill attempts to shut this down. It is to be used as a tool to help stop the spread of this issue of child pornography.

I will agree with my colleague from Saint John when she said it was evil. We have the right as members in this place to say such things because it is truly wrong. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong. Many of my colleagues would agree with this particular point. Let us build on what we can agree on and we can agree. Tonight we heard that we agree child pornography is wrong. This is a bill that is being introduced to help address that.

I was encouraged by my colleague for Erie—Lincoln who said changes will be coming to the criminal code. I can only hope and encourage him to work with his government. We will work together to bring these changes forward, to incorporate this forfeiture clause that my colleague brought forward, so we can help stop the wrongs that are occurring. We can help stop the individuals who are involved in this industry. We can help stop the wrongs that are being perpetrated against our children.

I may have indicated inadvertently in my earlier comment that I do not have children. I would like to correct that because I have four young children. My oldest daughter is 10 and my youngest, who is a son, is four years old. The others are six and eight. This is an issue that strikes at home for me.

I worked for 10 years as an elementary school teacher. I was able to see the need for our children to be protected, not only in our homes and communities but in our institutions like schools and in other areas. Those who attempt to abuse children in this way find their way into those areas of protection that are supposed to be safe havens for our children. We need to be on guard for that. With the tools suggested in this piece of legislation from my colleague from Lethbridge, we need to be able to shut down this kind of activity.

I am encouraged by the agreement tonight from all parties on this issue. In fact, we have agreed that child pornography is wrong. This amendment should move forward and should be put into practice immediately.

Would it not be wonderful if we could do that tonight, on a night where we have already had agreement on a major issue having to do with protecting our children.

We should not wait another day. We should move forward on this issue right away. Our children are our most valued resource. We need to show, not only in our words but in our actions, that we mean that. There is an opportunity to do that tonight. I hope we speak loudly with our words on things that need to be fixed, but even more loudly with our actions.

In closing, I would like to commend my colleague, the member for from Lethbridge, once again. We do not care who gets credit for the idea or the issue, we want to see it put in place no matter where it comes from. That is why I think there would be agreement on this issue from all members. We need to move forward on it.