Michel Bellehumeur

[Youth Criminal Justice Act, May 16th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations between all the parties in the House and I think you would find consent for the following motion.

I move:

That the amendments moved by the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve at report stage with respect to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be identified as standing in the name of the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm.

[Organized Crime, May 9th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, earlier when they answered my question, I sincerely believe that the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of Justice completely failed to understand what I was asking. I am going to repeat it because it is very important and I want a serious answer.

Will the Minister of Justice reassure the House, and particularly the people of Quebec and of Canada, by stating here in the House that the immunity granted police officers to commit illegal acts will be limited strictly to investigations into organized crime and that such an authorization will be given by a judge?

[Organized Crime, May 9th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, he has completely failed to answer the question.

The bill would allow the Solicitor General of Canada and Quebec's Minister of Public Security to authorize the commission of offences. It is unacceptable for the political arm to have the power to authorize the police to commit illegal acts.

My question is a simple one: Will the minister assure this House that authorization will have to be given by a judge, as is the case for wiretapping?

[Organized Crime, May 9th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, the organized crime bill would give undercover officers immunity by allowing them to commit certain offences with complete impunity in order to make it easier for them to infiltrate organized crime groups.

Will the minister guarantee the House that the immunity provided for in the bill will be limited to infiltrating organized crime groups and nothing else?

[Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001, May 7th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-15, at this stage. It is a very important bill.

Before discussing the legislation further, I would like to repeat what I have already said on other omnibus bills. I think it is inappropriate that so many different things should be put into such an important bill.

In the bill, there are provisions on animal cruelty offences, on the sexual exploitation of children involving the use of the Internet and on sexual harassment. Amendments are proposed with regard to the way in which this will be brought to court. The bill deals with harassment, home invasion, disarming a police officer, judicial errors—all this is very important—and with the whole issue of criminal procedure, which is also very important.

In the bill, some things need no explanation. We totally agree with some of the changes the minister is introducing; we were hoping for them. We commend the minister for the changes that she is proposing. However, there are certain aberrations. What do we do? We do not support the bill because part of it does not interest us and part of it goes against certain positions of Quebec or of our party?

However, with regard to the sexual exploitation of children and the modernization of the criminal code to take into account today's reality in terms of the Internet, we are in agreement. What are we supposed to do? Vote against the bill?

I think the Minister of Justice is not disinterested. I believe she knows very well what she is doing. We lack neither time nor opportunity in the House of Commons to study subjects one after the other, in their proper context and with the help of experts in each field. We have what we need to do good work. Why use an omnibus bill like this to confuse the issues?

It will be strange when the bill is in committee to hear people from humane societies, crown attorneys speaking on criminal proceedings and university professors speaking on research. At one point, we will have to focus on a subject in particular. It will take a lot of time if we really want to do good work and hear witnesses. In the end, we are not saving any time.

I do not think the legislator works better when the government introduces a series of changes in an catch-all bill. In this sense, I believe the minister failed. I think we could have worked diligently on amending bills as we did earlier with Bill S-4. That is a very good example, in my opinion.

When all the parties in the House get along, partisanship can be set aside and we can move ahead with a bill to improve the justice system and better meet the concerns of people. We had a demonstration of that this morning by all the parties. We co-operated and were able to go through all the stages in the same day, with the result that Bill S-4 has now been passed.

I am convinced that the same could have been done regarding the sexual exploitation of children. We could have done it to modernize the criminal code regarding the criminal use of the Internet and make this an offence. It should be pointed out that these changes are often made in response to decisions by the higher courts. This whole part of the criminal code could have been passed very quickly, so that these provisions could take effect as soon as possible.

There are also other issues, such as disarming a policeman. This has been a concern of police officers, including the RCMP, municipal police forces and the Quebec Provincial Police, for a long time. We have already heard a number of witnesses. The spokespersons for political parties, including the Liberal Party, the Canadian Alliance, the Bloc Quebecois and the others, are all aware that police officers want this amendment. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to realize that if the government introduced a bill that dealt strictly with this issue, we would pass it more quickly.

As I said at the beginning, the bill contains amendments to which I am totally opposed, perhaps not in principle as such but with respect to how they are worded. It seems that the legislator, or those who took the time to draft the bill, forgot certain particular situations. Quite honestly, if the government had produced bills addressing each situation separately, the House of Commons would have passed them very quickly.

Once again the Department of Justice appears to be out of touch with the public. We have seen, and are still seeing, the results of this with the whole issue of young offenders in Quebec, where nobody is in favour of this bill. The minister does not even want to hear from the representatives from Quebec in committee. The government has bulldozed right over everything, as only it can do. We will eventually end up with this bill at third reading.

To show just how strange things sometimes are in the life of the Minister of Justice, the young offenders bill has not even been passed at third reading and we realize that we are going to repeal the Young Offenders Act with Bill C-7, which we recently passed. We realize that certain of the clauses in this bill amend the Young Offenders Act. We are amending this legislation when we know that we have a bill that is going to repeal it.

I would like to describe the context in which the bill seems to have been drafted, and particularly to point out the government's, or the Minister of Justice's, lack of understanding of what is going on within that department. Apart from coming here to the House and listening to what we have to say, I do not get the impression that the minister has much control over her department. She needs to keep much more of an eye on things because this is very important.

I have been an MP since 1993. If there is one bill that has been very hard to get through this House and that has divided just about all caucuses, it has been the firearms legislation. The minister has seen fit to change certain aspects of the Firearms Act with Bill C-15, as well as certain definitions in the criminal code, and this has greatly expanded the definition of a firearm. The legislation we had was already hard to understand and now, with the amendment the minister is bringing in with Bill C-15, I must say the definition of a firearm will be as clear as mud.

One of the clauses that surprised me when I examined Bill C-15 was clause 4. It says, and I will take the time to read it because it is somewhat complex, that subparagraphs 84(3)( d )(i) and (ii) of the Criminal Code are replaced by the following:

(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or (ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.

I am just a lawyer; I do not know whether it will take engineers to enforce the Firearms Act in future because apparently a series of multiplicative factors are needed to arrive at the number of joules: the length of the barrel, the radius of the barrel, the size of the bullet, the weight, multiplied, divided—I no longer know what all—to calculate the number of joules. With a definition like this, I have serious doubts with respect to an industry that is in full expansion in Canada and Quebec. I am referring to the whole paintball industry.

I think the biggest operation in all of Canada is located in my riding—its sales are considerable—and it is called BigFoot PaintBall. I am told that, obviously, the rubber bullet filled with paint does not travel 152.4 metres per second, but has a muzzle energy around 12 joules.

Will these guns that look like something from out of this world with their silver and blue and all sorts of other colours have to be registered?

The department assures me that this is not the intent. I read the definition, I read the provision that applies in such cases, and it is “or”. It is “either or” the way I see it. If it is not, I hope they will correct it. But “either” the bullet travels faster than 152.4 metres a second “or” it develops a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 joules.

Under such an interpretation, the gun belonging to my constituent, who earns a living with it in paintball, a new sport, should be registered.

I cannot support such a law because it totally distorts the point of registering firearms. As regards my position, which I spoke of at the start, do I vote for or against the bill given this aberration in it? I think we will vote for it and try to convince the minister she is headed in the wrong direction in certain respects, in certain ways the bill is drafted.

There is no doubt that if the past is any indication of things to come, I have little chance but we will try. We have succeeded on a few occasions in getting certain things changed in the department. We will continue to do so.

The drafting of Bill C-15, in certain cases, is confusing and will have to be given careful consideration. However, we could have amended the bill with a series of small bills, which could have been quickly passed. With regard to the more complicated bills that do not get the unanimous approval of the House, more time and effort could have gone into understanding and improving them but the minister decided otherwise.

Another point has to do with the whole question of child pornography. As drafted, I think this part of the bill is in keeping with requests made and decisions given by the courts. It also updates legislation. So, there is no problem.

The other issue that concerns me is animal cruelty. At the present time, we have legislation. I agree its provisions are obsolete. This whole part has not been changed recently. It no longer properly reflects reality. It is not as modern as we could wish. There is an approach that deals in a modern way with the improvement of legislation. There is another approach, which is too broad and which encompasses almost anything and, once again, does not achieve the objective sought.

Sincerely, I agree with the principle of protecting animals. I am against cruelty toward any kind of animals. I will tell the House a story showing how sensitive I am. Once I accidentally hit a cat that was roaming the street and I stopped to see whether I could save it. It was an accident. Thus, I want to show the House that I am in favour of protecting animals and I think the current legislation does not achieve this objective.

The way this provision is written, I understand the people who are worried and who feel targeted by it, while they are doing nothing illegal and they are not being cruel to animals. The definition is so broad that I understand them. The minister will also have to understand the people who are concerned.

In the definition of cruelty to animals, which is totally new and which applies to many animals, the bill says:

182.1 In this Part, “animal” means a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain.

This provision includes just about every animal, from a little mouse to a moose in northern Quebec. It also includes fish, not just endangered whales and belugas but all vertebrates. Frogs are also targeted since they are vertebrates—at least I think so, I am a lawyer, not a biologist—but I think they are.

The definition is very broad. There is a whole series of issues relating to cruelty to the animals, namely any vertebrate that has the capacity “to feel pain”.

The bill also provides that:

182.2(1) Every one commits an offence who, wilfully or recklessly: a ) causes...unnecessary...suffering or injury to an animal

What does this mean? The clause also says: b ) kills an animal...brutally or viciously...

If the bill is passed without being amended, will a person who hunts with a bow, which is legal, now commit an offence if he continues to hunt with a bow?

When I go fishing, the fish that I catch does not seem to like to get caught by a hook. Am I guilty of cruelty to that animal, to that vertebrate? These issues must be raised. This is a very broad definition and this is why I understand all the hunting and fishing associations' concerns. I received letters from people in my riding who practice these sports, since there is a lot of hunting and fishing in Berthier—Montcalm. It is a beautiful riding. Mr. Speaker, let me know if you ever want to go hunting or fishing in my riding.

People in my riding are interested in this legislation. Sports associations from across Canada and Quebec also sent me e-mails and letters saying “Listen, this is dangerous”.

The legislation really needs to be looked at in order to see what its objective was. It then becomes clear that, although the present wording may attain the objective, it will end up covering a lot of people who were not necessarily meant to be part of it.

I have touched on just two points but there are a number of actions the legislators may consider cruelty to animals. I wonder where this leaves the pig farmer, for instance. With the definitions given, I am a bit worried for farmers.

For instance, where the shipping of animals is concerned, clause 182.3 (1) ( c ) reads:

negligently injures an animal while it is being conveyed.

I do not know if the minister has ever seen how pigs are loaded onto trucks and chickens into cages for shipping and so on, but the expression “negligently” is very broad, as is “injures an animal while it is being conveyed”.

Very often, any manner of unexpected event can occur. Even with the best of intentions and care for the animals being shipped, sometimes an animal gets injured. Its leg may be broken, or something of the sort.

In the riding of Berthier—Montcalm, we have poultry farms. I have seen such things as a whole shipment of chickens being suffocated by the heat, something that was unavoidable because the outside temperature was 35 degrees Celsius, with high humidity and no wind.

Could the person shipping these chickens be charged with “negligently injuring an animal while it is being conveyed”, in this case of causing its death? I wonder, and I am not the only one.

As I was saying, there are all those involved in hunting and fishing. Then there are the farmers as well who are also raising such questions. We have received a letter from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture raising objections to certain points in the bill and asking us to look into certain things or to propose amendments. Quebec farmers have also made us aware of this problem. Some pig farmers have telephoned me to check out certain things they had heard.

Hunters, fishers, farmers and even academics are asking questions. On April 6, we received in our offices a copy of a letter from the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada to the Minister of Justice. I will read the resolution adopted by the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, which is very significant and speaks for itself. The letter concerns Bill C-15, which we are currently studying. The resolution reads as follows:

That the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada make known, in the strongest possible terms, to the Minister of Justice and the chair of the House of Commons' Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights that it and the institutions that are members of it fear that the proposed changes to the Criminal Code on the treatment of animals inadvertently threatens legitimate university research done using animals, in accordance with the standards recognized in Canada and abroad of the Canadian Council on Animal Care.

It is clear from the wording that even academics, professors and those doing research, who have a highly developed professional conscience, have doubts about these provisions.

The number of people who have doubts about the very ordinary but very badly drafted provisions is beginning to add up: hunters, fishers, farmers, producers, professors, academics, researchers and all that.

My colleague from Terrebonne—Blainville will speak on the part concerning the protection of animals and all that concerns this issue once I have finished speaking. I know that there is a whole very important issue here.

One thing that is missing right now but that could have been changed given the objective pursued is the recovery of costs.

Breeders and people who keep animals are currently being prosecuted for cruelty under existing provisions, and it is difficult to recover all the expenses incurred to get to the animals, try to save them, care for them and so on.

Today, proposed amendments to Bill C-15 are designed to facilitate cost recovery, or at least to try to recover some money. This is fine. However, the same goal could have been achieved with more restrictive provisions and definitions, such as those I mentioned earlier, to deal specifically with the cruelty, not in a restrictive way but in a more targeted way.

I am convinced that we will have good discussions in committee on this, because it is a very important issue.

Other amendments included in the bill concern the whole issue of miscarriage of justice. A fellow Bloc Quebecois member took a very close look at this issue. He has already proposed amendments to the criminal code. He has introduced a bill to facilitate future prosecutions and the compensation of individuals, men and women alike, who have been treated unfairly or have been found guilty when in fact they were not.

The whole issue of miscarriage of justice is very important. It is an issue that has interested the Bloc Quebecois for a long time. The hon. member for Repentigny has been following it closely. He even had a constituent, whose name I forget, who was finally found not guilty and had his rights restored. However, this individual had to live through being unfairly accused and being found guilty of an offence when he was not guilty.

This whole issue is important, hence our support. But here again, this section is in the bill, which contains certain provisions with which we are not in agreement.

The same question I had at the beginning arises. Do I or do I not support the bill? We will probably support it again but we will try to improve as much as possible all these provisions which, as far as judicial errors are concerned, are not a problem.

The minister could have introduced a bill amending the whole issue of judicial errors. First, this would have shown that this is an issue of importance both to the minister and to the government. Everything seems to have been thrown into a huge salad bowl, as it were, and mixed around as if to get rid of it. This would have shown the government's interest.

Second, the bill could have been passed very quickly, so that the new legislation could be implemented as quickly as possible because, when we look at the provisions proposed by the Minister of Justice regarding judicial errors, we see that they are not necessarily simple. It is not because we support it that it is simple. The implementation is very complex. Care must be taken to ensure that errors are not made with respect to the judicial errors themselves.

This must be applicable to everyone. Everyone must be treated equitably, without political interference. The approach must be acceptable to everyone.

We seem to be getting there. It could have been passed. If it were passed quickly, the people who implement it will be able to become familiar with this new legislation and do a more effective job as quickly as possible.

Once again, by introducing an omnibus bill, the minister deprives herself of any possibility of proceeding rapidly in the sections not contested by anyone in the House.

I will try, as we go along, to separate them and I think in fact that this was already done with another bill. We will see if it is possible to do so. I will look at this with the House law clerks in order to see whether certain parts of the bill can be separated before the vote. It would be very interesting for everyone if we could do this.

The last section deals with firearms. It is certain that it is intended as a response to certain problems, because the minister has a problem when its comes to applying the Firearms Act.

Hon. members will recall that the Bloc Quebecois voted in favour of this bill, but under circumstances which included certain comments by the minister of the day which led us to believe that the Firearms Act would be implemented and certain common objectives would be achieved.

What they were saying at that time was that implementation of the Firearms Act would cost some $100 million to $125 million and would thereafter be self-sustaining, year after year, by licence fees and so on. Here we are in 2001 and firearms are not even all registered in Quebec. Perhaps 65% or 70% are.

For the implementation of this act we are talking not $125 million but more like $875 million. Now they are telling us that it will not be self-sustaining but will instead cost some $100 million to $150 million a year.

If I had been given the right figures in 1995, perhaps our position would be different. We might have voted in favour but our position might have been a bit different.

Now we have amendments to Bill C-15 that amend the already very complex regulations of the Firearms Act. I would hope that the final result of all that will be a faster or improved way to register firearms. I say in all honesty that when I see how things work at the Department of Justice, I have my doubts. At the point we have reached, however, we will trust the government on the registration of firearms.

I would like to point out that there is a whole other aspect that is not a source of problems either. Many amendments have been made with respect to Nunavut, including certain regulations and procedures, and so on, which apply only there. There is no problem, and I think these amendments were sought by the local community.

As I was saying earlier, other provisions in the bill amend the Young Offenders Act. I find it very strange that the Minister of Justice is changing a law she well knows will be repealed shortly by her decision, especially the way she is going about it, not wanting to hear any witnesses from Quebec. The National Defence Act, the National Capital Act and other similar acts are being amended as well.

As members can see, I have tried to do a very quick overview. This bill will come before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. I will be there, as I am for each and every bill. I know that the member for Terrebonne—Blainville will closely follow the deliberations of the justice committee and consideration of this bill, because she is very interested in certain aspects of it. I invite her to come to the committee meetings and I am sure that together we will do a good job with Bill C-15.

On this note, I will reiterate our final position. Even though we have a problem with many provisions of Bill C-15, we will support it at second reading, while hoping that we can convince the Minister of Justice, or rather her department, since it is obviously the department that is calling the shots, that they are off track with some definitions, which are much too broad. There are also a number of difficulties with procedures regarding arms, paintballs, the number of joules and the number of metres per second being much too complex. A cumulative process, not an either or situation, is required. We will try to propose all sorts of amendments to the Minister of Justice, to improve this bill.

I know that there are hunters, producers and farmers who are listening to us, as well as people involved in the sale of firearms and paintballs. I want them to know that we will review this bill as thoroughly as we can in order to be able to propose the necessary amendments to make it acceptable and to ensure that it will achieve its objectives.

[Federal Law—Civil Law Harmonization Act, No. 1, May 7th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief. I had not intended to rise at this time since we object neither to the form nor to the substance of the bill but, a comment by the Minister of Justice almost forced me to do so because I have to take at least five minutes to set some things straight.

During her speech, the Minister of Justice said that the legislation proves that the government wants to take into account the particularities of the two legal systems we have in this country. That might be true inasmuch as they are using the vocabularies of both the civil code and the common law in order to please everyone, but it is not the case in all jurisdictions of the justice department.

I believe the minister had a good opportunity with the Young Offenders Act to show that both legal systems can cohabit in this wide and beautiful Canada but she failed. In that particular case, she simply imposed her views on something of such importance as the Young Offenders Act.

I have no problem with Bill S-4. However, as far as the remarks by the minister to the effect that with this legislation her government, and her in particular, are taking into account the interests of Quebec and the other provinces, I think that is a half truth and I wanted to make that clear.

[Young Offenders, April 30th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, last week representatives of the western and Maritime provinces appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice to testify with respect to Bill C-7.

All those wanting changes, according to the minister, have said the bill is complex, too costly, increases delays, fails to meet the provinces' expectations and more.

Since her own allies condemn her bill—with support from Quebec—will the minister listen to reason, withdraw Bill C-7 and, if her department ever has money it does not know what to do with, it should give it to the provinces so they can apply the Young Offenders Act as Quebec has done for 30 years?

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

—to the member. She could very well be a minister, and she would probably be much more competent than those opposite.

Does my colleague agree with me that it is dangerous to leave this up to the solicitor general? Should this not be the responsibility of an appointed judge, who enforces the law on a daily basis, who knows how things work in these cases, just as he has responsibility for authorizing wiretaps or certain seizures? Would she not agree that it would be preferable for a judge to authorize such actions, which would otherwise be illegal?

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I have one final question for the member for Rimouski—Neigette-et-la Mitis.

As I said this morning, the minister did not have a lot to say in that because, barely three weeks before she introduced the bill at first reading, I asked her questions in the House and she said that the criminal code contained all the provisions necessary to wage an effective battle against organized crime, when we knew that the department was in the process of drafting a bill. What departmental officials included in the bill concerns immunity for certain actions by the police.

This is somewhat the same question I asked my colleague earlier. Under this bill, the police will be able to commit offences such as selling and buying drugs in order to win the acceptance of a criminalized group. This is dangerous, and I think that everyone would agree. There is some protection, but it takes the form of an agreement, of authorization from the Solicitor General of Canada.

My question to the minister—

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

As I was saying, it is all very nice to introduce a bill, but we need cash to implement it. We need to put money on the table so that enforcement officers will have what it takes to do the job.

The minister is forecasting $200 million over five years. In my mind, it means $40 million a year. This is not enough to put in place such an act, when we know that one investigation alone, such as Opération Printemps 2001, the big cleanup operation my colleague referred to, will cost close to that in Quebec alone, that is to say around $20 million. If we add the cost of building a prison, a court and all the other measures, we will need $40 million for this much needed operation.

Does the member agree with me that the minister should invest at least five times this amount over five years, at least $200 million a year, to successfully fight organized crime?