Jean-Guy Chrétien

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Do we not have ten minutes for questions and comments?

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest the hon. member's speech on Bill C-86. There was a point I found particularly interesting, and I would like the hon. member to clarify, because I know very well that the farmers' problem is not producing milk but producing just enough to fill their quota.

If farmers were told to raise their quota by 5 per cent this year, they would be very happy. The problem is that they have to produce, say, 10 000 hectolitres of milk, but if they produce more than that they are fined, and if they produce less their quota will be reduced in the following years because-bad boys, bad girls-they cannot fulfil their commitments. So much so that people often joke and compare cows, as the hon. member for Lotbinière did yesterday, to gas pumps that have not been fixed. With gasoline, once the exact number of hectolitres has been

pumped into the tank, the pump is turned off, and the customer waits until tomorrow or the next year. But one can hardly do that with cows.

Therefore our problem is not to produce more, because milk production could easily be increased by 5 per cent a year. What I want to ask about is the 1.7 per cent of our milk production which was exported to the United States last year or in 1993-94. I would like the hon. member to tell the House what province this 1.7 per cent came from and in what form it was exported.

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, if I have only a minute left, I would like to remind you that, here in Ottawa, on May 2, 3 and 4 the representatives of nine provinces discussed matters in detail. Six of them subsequently made a three-point proposal to Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. If you permit me, I will read it to you.

The proposal to British Columbia was to pool industrial milk revenues on August 1, 1996. Fluid milk revenues would be added the following year, on August 1, 1997. The province would keep much of the future increases in fluid milk, because the population in British Columbia is the fastest growing in Canada.

Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for your attention. As I indicated to the Speaker before you, five of my colleagues will help me with Bill C-86. They are the hon. members for Champlain, Lotbinière-

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Indeed. This single milk pool which, as I said earlier, represents 82 per cent of milk production, was created not for the sake of any one group but because it makes sense, and the six provinces that are part of this agreement are in it because it works for them. And who knows, maybe this agreement will be the first of many to be negotiated between Canada and Quebec, after a positive response by Quebecers to the referendum this fall.

At a time when we must adjust to the new environment created by the GATT agreements, we should welcome this agreement wholeheartedly.

As the president of the Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec, Laurent Pellerin, pointed out: "The day after the GATT agreements, the government reiterated its support for supply management on the condition that producers, and dairy producers in particular, collectively adapt their marketing tools". The ball is now in the federal government's court. Let us see whether it keeps its word on this.

Let us now take a closer look at Bill C-86, which was made necessary. As usual, the present federal government waits until the last minute before acting. This bill must pass all stages, receive Senate approval and be in force by August 1, 1995. If we do not count May, only June and July remain. Therefore we have to get on with it.

The aim of this bill is to adjust the famous $3 currently deducted on every hectolitre of industrial milk produced by dairy producers. This $3 levy, known as the export costs in the industry, will be illegal under international agreements as of August 1. This levy is vital, however, because, without this assistance to industrial milk processors, our exports would no longer be competitive, and we would not be able to compete with products from outside the country, which could flood the markets in Canada and Quebec, because our prices would be too high.

I have 40 minutes, Madam Speaker. Yes. I wonder if time does not go by faster on your watch than on mine.

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, at the GATT negotiations in Geneva, dairy producers were taken on a roller coaster ride, especially in relation to the talks on article XI, and the talks on whether the supply management system should be preserved were far from reassuring.

The new accord to be implemented following the conclusion of this round of GATT negotiations will force the farming sector to rapidly adapt to a new economic environment.

Dairy producers in particular are facing an enormous challenge. By virtue of the GATT's definition of an export subsidy, NAFTA will force dairy producers to do away with their system of export levies by August 1, 1995, that is, in two and a half months.

Bill C-86 amends the Canadian Dairy Commission Act in order to resolve the problem of export subsidies. I would like to mention that the commission's chairman is Mr. Prégent. In particular, this bill would implement a national pooling system of market returns which would be used to promote the export of dairy products.

Currently, producers pay a levy of some $3 per hectolitre of industrial milk, which is used mostly to make butter and powdered skim milk for export. This levy which was labelled under the GATT and NAFTA as an export subsidy, even though it is paid by the producers and not by the government, is justified because the levy is paid at source, like the Rand formula for unionized workers, as I was explaining to my colleague from Lévis earlier. Union dues are deducted from wages. In this case, the Quebec federation of dairy producers takes $3 for each hectolitre from the farmer's pay. Because it is a deduction at source, NAFTA and the GATT consider it a direct export subsidy, and, as of next August 1, it will no longer be permitted.

Therefore, the pooling allowed under Bill C-86 will be consistent with the international agreements and will permit dairy producers to keep the advantages of the existing system. In 14 and a half months, there will be a single milk pool for all of Canada. In other words, on August 1, 1996 all that will matter is that it is milk, not that it is unprocessed or industrial milk.

The hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi will find that it will not matter whether the cows were Holsteins, Ayershires or Jerseys. The issue is milk, and milk alone. And to top it all off, there will be a single price. No longer will there be two prices, one for fluid milk and one for industrial milk.

We should, however, be aware that if the United States, which is only too ready to challenge, of late, decides to challenge this two price policy for milk, one for the domestic market and one for the international market, the dairy industry could be accused of dumping.

However, the United States, or whatever country feels it has been adversely affected, would have to prove that Canadian exports were prejudicial to its market. Since we do not export a lot, and since our exports are increasingly value added processed products, this proof could be very elusive.

Bill C-86 is the response of producers to the impact of new international rules on the dairy industry. Dairy producers have rolled up their sleeves and found ingenious solutions to their predicament. We in the Bloc Quebecois support Bill C-86 because it allows producers to adapt to the requirements of international trade agreements signed by Canada.

The main purpose of the bill is to replace export levies going into an export subsidization fund with the pooling of returns from the marketing of dairy products.

Since some provinces-such as Quebec-export more dairy products than others, the commission will ensure that each province's contribution to the export fund matches its percentage of quotas. That is fair. If Quebec produces 47.5 per cent of industrial milk, it will pay 47.5 per cent of the export fund. If Prince Edward Island produces 6 per cent, it will pay 6 per cent.

For once in this country, we will have ensured a process that is fair. It will be different from the research and development funding system, in which Quebec receives barely 17 or 18 per cent of the funds allocated to R and D every year. In this case, each province will pay according to its percentage of dairy production.

The pooling of revenues from the marketing of dairy products from every province will allow domestic producers to continue to share market risks equitably and to balance the costs of the system, as the levy system often did. For example, if Quebec produces 48 per cent, it will pay 48 per cent; if Prince Edward Island produces 12 per cent, it will pay 12 per cent, and so on.

As you can imagine, I am pleased to point out that this bill will also allow the commission to delegate its powers to provincial marketing boards and to receive in return any similar powers granted to provincial boards, since fluid milk presently comes under the provinces while the Canadian Dairy Commission's authority is restricted to industrial milk.

The bill provides for a delegation of powers between the commission and the provinces for the purpose of managing the pooled fund. In the absence of a signed agreement, the commission would administer the pool only for industrial milk.

I look at the Liberal members opposite and I think that they, as well as the Minister of Agriculture, who is here this afternoon, will understand. How can this be in a federal system variously described as renewed federalism, courtroom federalism or flexible federalism? Those who talk about courtroom federalism probably worked for the Barreau du Québec or some such organization and see in this an opportunity to line their pockets. As the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs told us again this afternoon: "If you are not happy, all you have to do is sue".

In a normal country, do we go to court every day, one part of the country suing the rest? That is this government's vision of Canada.

Fluid milk, the type we drink every day, comes under provincial jurisdiction, while industrial milk comes under federal jurisdiction, that is to say our jurisdiction, here, in Ottawa.

That is federalism for you: the same cow has to have two sets of udders, with the federal government drawing from the left side and the provincial government from the right. This agreement will help a little bit in correcting this distortion. I can see Liberal members laughing. They are laughing because they did not even know that industrial milk fell within their jurisdiction. One of them just woke up, poor him. He finally realized that reality in the legal world is quite different from the reality of agriculture.

These are the technical changes introduced by Bill C-86 regarding the Canadian Dairy Commission. It is interesting to note that the bill is put forward in a context where six provinces, namely Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, have signed an agreement in principle to pool their whole milk supply system.

I must say that, among the ten provinces, there is one exception and that is Newfoundland, because it has only fifty of so dairy producers, producing mainly fluid milk, which comes under provincial jurisdiction. So, Newfoundland is not a member of this consortium, leaving nine potential members.

The three Western provinces-Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia-have not joined the other six yet. Should they be called sovereignist provinces? Or secessionist, indépendantiste or even, as the Prime Minister says, separatist? I do not think so. These are elected people who want to properly manage government affairs, adequately represent their constituents, and also check with them to see if this is a good solution. I must say that, regardless of what happens, the six other provinces account for over 82 per cent of Canada's milk production.

Even if all the provinces keep their current quotas, there will only be one milk. There will no longer be any distinction made between industrial milk and fluid milk. Consequently, only one price will apply to milk across the country. The provinces will split the increases in quotas among themselves, and producers will be able to buy quotas from other provinces, which is a nice change.

A Quebec producer will be able to buy a quota in Ontario or in New Brunswick, and vice versa. Of course, there could be an increase in consumption if we help each other, if this government stops reducing subsidies to industrial milk producers, as it just did. The hon. member said that the Minister of Finance was not increasing taxes. What a naive statement on his part, given that the federal tax on gas has gone up half a cent per litre. And the member claims this is not a tax. Oh no, this is not a tax.

The government reduced its industrial milk subsidies by 30 per cent. This is not a tax. However, the cost of milk will increase and the government reduces its subsidies. But this is not a tax. Oh no. It is not a tax. Go and ask producers. Go to Lafaille's for example. I did go last Monday to the Lafaille and Sons' auction, in the riding of my friend, the hon. member for Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead, and I talked with some of my fellow farmers. Let me tell you that the minister should stay away, because if he went there-but he would not dare do that, of course-he would find out what farmers think of his budget.

Admittedly, it took some doing to conclude this agreement. It is the result of lengthy negotiations in which Quebec demonstrated commendable leadership. When the topic of grain and cereals comes up in the House, the West takes the lead role. But in this case, where for once a bill affects Quebec, I am sure you will not mind if I take a minute this afternoon to congratulate some of our own experts on their tireless efforts. I am thinking of the Quebec federation of dairy producers, its president, Claude Rivard, and its vice president, Jean Grégoire, as well as economist Guylaine Gosselin, the UPA milk expert.

I would also like to pay tribute to officials of the Quebec federation of dairy producers for their unremitting efforts throughout these negotiations. There is no doubt that our milk producers in Quebec are very well represented by their elected officials and by their union, the UPA.

I invite my Liberal colleagues to occasionally take a look at La terre de chez nous. They would find this weekly newspaper very instructive regarding the views of Quebec farmers and other questions. Speaking of the West, La Terre de chez nous carried an article this week about the Canadian milk pool, which threw out an invitation to Western indépendantistes, the three provinces that have not yet signed up: British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta. Despite their hesitation, the repercussions of this historic agreement may well be greater than first thought.

From a practical point of view, we need only mention that in 1996, Quebec dairy producers should see their income rise by 60 to 70 cents per hectolitre. Of course, 60 or 70 cents is not a fortune. It is an increase of a little over half a cent a litre, which has nothing to do with the increase they should have received, given the rise in the cost of living and the cut of the 30 per cent subsidy that the federal government is getting ready to implement on July 1. This increase of 60 to 70 cents per hectolitre results from the realignment of prices for industrial milk and unprocessed milk in Quebec and the prices of milk in the other

provinces, since by 1996, there will be one national price for milk in Canada.

Because of the GATT, Canada will have to allow butter to be imported this year, which will probably affect quotas. But, with the pooling of all returns, the six provinces will share the impact of market fluctuations on all milk prices and no one province will be hit harder than any other.

What must be stressed is that this kind of agreement is based on the economy. It is the kind of agreement which maximizes the strong points of each and every member, who are all working together. Even with a referendum around the corner, producers from various provinces did not hesitate to collaborate with Quebec because it was in their best interests to do so. When we get down to reality, not hypothetical disaster scenarios, we see that the voice of reason prevails over political considerations.

In a document written by The Council for Canadian Unity, largely funded by the taxes paid by all Canadians, and in particular by Quebecers who are forced to pay for this kick in the behind, the council strongly suggests that the word "separation" be used, although the explanation it gives of the term in the glossary simply refers the reader to the definition of sovereignty.

And a few weeks ago, I saw that, regarding the separation of Quebec, the Prime Minister once again uttered the sentence that he just loves to repeat: "Does Quebec want to separate or not?" He knows very well that his only way of convincing people is by fearmongering.

Last week, when I was doing the rounds in my riding, I made a point of visiting-and I hope you did too, Madam Speaker, because I know you have a very special relationship with seniors and as you know, last week was national seniors homes' week-so I made a point of visiting the homes in my riding, and to my surprise, I found that more and more seniors support sovereignty for Quebec.

When I read in La Presse that the Premier of Quebec went to the Lower St. Lawrence, in the riding of the Quebec minister of agriculture, where at a home for seniors, he renewed the membership card of the oldest member of the Parti Quebecois on that member's one hundred and first birthday, I thought that was splendid.

This always reminds me of my elderly mother-unfortunately she passed away three years ago-who said she was going to vote for sovereignty because all her children were in favour of sovereignty. But she always added that this was the only weapon we have against their scare tactics. In fact, in a document the Council for Canadian Unity recommends using the term "separation", but they have a nerve, it is not even in the dictionary.

According to them, with sovereignty Quebec would immediately lose-and this is just to scare our farmers-all its market quotas in Canada. According to them, it is unlikely that farmers in other provinces would agree to maintain those quotas. When I say them, I am referring to the Council for Canadian Unity, led by a bunch of dyed in the wool federalists who are biased and misrepresent the facts.

Does this mean that after making substantial changes in their operating procedures during this referendum year, producers outside Quebec would be so inconsistent as to drop the whole thing this fall? Madam Speaker, let us be reasonable. In business matters, farmers know which side their bread is buttered.

[Bovine Somatotropin, May 16th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture recognize that his moratorium is totally useless, since there is no control over the destination and use of somatotropin once it has gone through Customs at the border, thus creating a situation which could bring a very promising Canadian industry into disrepute?

[Bovine Somatotropin, May 16th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture. On May 13, the daily La Presse reported that several dairy producers were illegally using the growth hormone somatotropin, which they import from the U.S. Most of the stakeholders, including the Quebec federation of dairy producers, recognize that this is common practice.

Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us which concrete measure he took to ensure that dairy producers comply with the moratorium in effect?

[Canadian Dairy Commission Act, May 16th, 1995]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the clarification. I will of course comply.

I would like mention right away that five of my colleagues will join me in debate on Bill C-86, a bill of major importance for Quebecers in our view. I will be supported by the hon. members for Champlain, Lotbinière, Québec-Est, Matapédia-Matane and Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead throughout the day and tomorrow, if need be, as I put across our views on Bill C-86, which, I must tell you right away, we will be supporting. We do not have any amendment to put forth at this time. I can therefore assure the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings of our full support.

The GATT negotiations in Geneva led dairy producers a merry dance. Negotiations concerning article XI in particular, as well as discussions about maintaining a supply management system did not give much comfort to dairy producers.

I remember attending, in December 1993, a few weeks after this government took office, a large meeting with some dairy producers from my riding. The meeting was held in Saint-Georges-de-Beauce, in the riding of the independent member for Beauce. There were between 500 and 600 farm producers in attendance, and they sounded quite worried. This meeting was chaired by the chief economist of the UPA in Quebec, Yvon Proulx, assisted by two other persons.

I must say that three questions were asked over and over by our dairy producers. The first question of particular interest to them was this: Will supply management with respect to milk be maintained?

I clearly remember the answer chief economist Proulx gave them at the time, as it left me wondering. He said something like this: "My friends, if you want supply management, you can

have it. If you exercise self-discipline, we can have a well-disciplined dairy policy in Quebec and Canada".

He managed to give some reassurances to the producers, who feared among other things that producers could decide overnight to increase their dairy herd, or that those running a cow-calf operation could suddenly decide to start dairy production to supplement their income.

Another matter of concern to producers was quota value. I remember one producer saying: "I could have sold my farm for $1.5 million last fall. Will I be able to sell it for the same price with these declining quota values?" Of course, the question remains unanswered. It was not answered in October 1993. Just this week, I read in La terre de chez nous an article by none other than the president of the union representing agricultural producers in the Châteauguay valley, Peter Bienz, who figured out that his dairy quota was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and who is most interested in what will happen to the value of his quota.

A milk quota is only a work permit, a piece of paper, a certificate which says, for example, that so-and-so has the right to produce 12,000 kilos of milk fat per year. Our agricultural producers are extremely concerned about the monetary value of this piece of paper, which is now so valuable in Quebec, because many of them see it as their pension fund. They are not like MPs who, after sitting in the House of Commons for six years and reaching the age of 55, as provided in the new bill under consideration, can receive a pension for life, which, all in all, is quite reasonable after spending six years in this House. Unfortunately for them, farmers do not enjoy the same perks. They equate their pension fund with the value of their quotas, so I hope that this value will not be slashed.

Finally, another question of concern to farm producers was the following: Will the proposed import tariffs ranging from 181 to 350 per cent remain the same?

Mr. Speaker, I see that the time is passing very quickly and, with your permission, I would like to stop now and resume my speech after Question Period.

[Power Corporation, May 15th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, at the Power Corporation stockholders' meeting, chairman of the board and CEO Paul Desmarais, who is also the father-in-law of the Prime Minister's daughter, said that, in the current circumstances, it was not in his corporation's best interest to invest in Quebec.

We learned at the same time that Power Corporation had increased its stake in Southam, which is about to build a $55 million printing plant for the Gazette . Bloc members deplore this blackmail campaign aimed at Quebecers on the eve of the referendum campaign.

Everyone knows that, because of its influence, its family ties, and the professional past of its senior executives, Power Corporation has benefited from orders-in-council regarding satellite broadcasting that were custom-made for one of its subsidiaries, Power DirecTv.

Are we to understand from Mr. Desmarais's declarations that he is now returning the Liberal government's favour?

[Code Of Conduct, May 1st, 1995]

They are honest.