Madam Speaker, at last we have a bill on gun control, and we are very pleased. It was high time the Minister of Justice tabled his plan of action in the form of a bill. We are delighted to proceed with the real debate. No more delays, no more conferences and consultations. Now the debate can start on Bill C-68, which is supposed to be an innovative piece of legislation.
We in the official opposition are aware of the concerns of a public that is disturbed, and rightly so, about the proliferation of firearms and the shocking number of deaths caused by these weapons.
We do not criticize just for the sake of criticizing, although the Minister of Justice does not seem to agree. Our criticism is constructive. Basically, we support legislation that will tighten gun control.
Right from the start, I would like to stress the attitude of the Minister of Justice during the debate on gun control. It is always a pleasure to watch a politician who sticks to his guns.
That being said, although the Minister of Justice is to be commended, Bill C-68 is not a panacea. It will not deal with all the problems out there. In fact, I am not so much worried about what the bill contains as about what it does not contain. I will expand on this in a few minutes.
I can hardly ignore the behaviour of the minority pro-gun lobby, a minority that managed to give the impression that its extreme position is widely shared. The pro-gun lobby and their Reform Party friends have been piling on the speeches. They would have us believe that more is better. The warm welcome they gave the Minister of Justice when he visited Calgary says a lot about their allegiance and their cynical attitudes. Threats of civil disobedience, the sacrosanct right to own firearms and individual and collective rights are all part of their rallying cry.
They want the public to believe that a bill on gun control is worthy of a dictator like Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot. I even received a communication in my office in Ottawa, with a list attached of countries where genocide had been practised and the dates on which gun control legislation had come into effect in those countries.
These fervent supporters of the right to bear arms were trying to establish a link between gun control and the genocides that have tarnished the history of mankind. This is pretty sad. I never saw such a total lack of intellectual honesty. These people should be ashamed of spreading such monstrous lies. To claim that the Armenian genocide was a direct consequence of gun control legislation that came into effect 40 years earlier is not only absurd but insane.
I agree that these individuals are not representative of the majority of those who object to all forms of gun control. Reform Party members should check their ranks and flush out the extremists. Some spring cleaning would be in order.
I come back to the bill before us today. In the fall we criticized it and, again today, we decry the minister's hesitation. Since the minister has been promising us legislation on arms control for such a long time, we were expecting something more complete, I can assure you.
The Minister of Justice wanted to win everyone over by giving something to each of them. Reformers, the gun lobby, and a number of colleagues of the Minister of Justice are delighted with the increase in the minimum sentences for crimes committed with guns and the fact that current firearms owners have almost eight years' grace to comply with the requirements of the national registration system the government is proposing today.
Let us have a closer look at who should be celebrating: the gun lobby or those in favour of stricter arms.
First, the bill proposes major changes to the Criminal Code. In terms of sentences, the bill increases from one year to four years the minimum sentence an individual must serve for committing a crime with a firearm. The present section 85 of the Criminal Code provides for a minimum sentence of one year for anyone using a firearm to commit a criminal act.
The problem with section 85 is that only a third of the charges made under this section result in convictions. Lawyers on a case will use this section most of the time for plea bargaining. The Crown is satisfied with the few convictions, because, in return, it obtains a guilty plea for the principal offence, such as robbery or sexual assault.
The bill does not resolve this de facto situation. Minimum sentences are increased, but there is no mechanism to force lawyers to stop bargaining for guilty pleas. In addition, judges, generally, tend to follow a principle of combining the number of years a defendant has to serve. Nothing in the bill will change this practice.
I would even bet that they will continue to do it and in this way reduce the length of the sentence for major offences. In real terms, there may be no significant increase in the actual number of years that the person will have to serve. However, if judges stop giving concurrent jail sentences, the increase in the jail population could become another problem area. I will come back to this later.
Finally, section 85 is modified by the addition of a list of 10 violent offences which will be covered by the provision. We wonder whether the government really was serious when it drew up this list. Manslaughter, an unpremeditated crime, is on the list. However, armed assault is not. Does that mean that the punishment will be the same, whether or not the victim survives the assault? Forcible confinement is not on the list, but kidnapping and hostage are.
I also really have doubts about whether the increase in the minimum sentence provided for in section 85 will be a deterrent. I would like to point out that a working paper on section 85, in particular, and on minimum sentences, in general, prepared by the department of justice concluded that for the most part, the public does not know which offences have a mandatory minimum sentence.
In addition, the same document, which the Minister of Justice should have analyzed more thoroughly, also concludes that mandatory minimum sentences are very weak deterrents and have little impact on the incidence of major crimes. Robbery is an excellent example. Even worse, apparently juries are less inclined to render a guilty verdict if they know that the accused will have to serve a mandatory sentence for the offence.
Assuming that judges will not apply the principle of adding up the total number of years for multiple offences, prison populations will increase substantially as a result. Indeed, the minimum sentence of four years would be served after any other sentence imposed by the judge.
The Minister of Justice seems to believe, naively, that detention centres could accommodate this increase in the number of prisoners. He claims that the deterrence effect of his bill would lower the number of firearms offences. There is no way of knowing the impact of his reform bill on the number of future convictions.
We must bear in mind that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the minister wishes to increase minimum sentences stipulated under section 85 of the Criminal Code, he must realize that prison populations will increase thereby and that we do not have the necessary infrastructure to accommodate these new prisoners.
Let us turn our attention to the warning issued by Professor Pierre Landreville of the Université de Montréal. In an article published in Le Devoir of December 23, Mr. Landreville explains the danger of such legislation, and I quote: ``Some 1,500 persons are convicted each year in Quebec and could possibly be given a minimum sentence of four years in addition to the sentence for the major offence. The population of Quebec penitentiaries, currently about 4,000 prisoners, would nearly double in the first four years after implementation of this measure''.
If prison populations increase, so too will the related costs.
Will the minister honestly tell taxpayers how much his reform will cost us, knowing that, just to keep a prisoner in jail, it cost on average, in 1992-93, $56,000 in a maximum security facility and $36,000 in a medium security one? Can the pro-gun lobby still say it is satisfied with the increase in the minimum sentence stipulated in section 85?
Moreover, for those of us in favour of gun control, can we claim this as a victory? Certainly not. The bill establishes a separate piece of legislation providing for a licensing system regarding the possession and use of firearms, and a national system for the registration of all firearms. Non-compliance with the provisions dealing with licensing and registration will be an offence under the Criminal Code. Going against the wishes of several of his Liberal colleagues, the justice minister decided to maintain sanctions in the bill.
Moreover, Bill C-68 provides for new offences and hefty penalties for the illegal importing of firearms and gun trafficking. In addition to the compulsory minimum sentence, individuals convicted of one of the ten designated violent offences will be prohibited for life from possessing a restricted or prohibited weapon. Up to now, everything is fine and these provisions are the direct result of our representations.
Also, under bill C-68, from now on, importing or selling .25 and .32 calibre handguns and handguns that have a barrel 105 mm in length or less will be prohibited. This ban affects roughly 58 per cent of all handguns in Canada.
Concurrently with Bill C-68, the justice minister has banned several types of military and paramilitary weapons by an order in council taking effect on January 1st, 1995. A total of 21 types of military and paramilitary firearms will now be prohibited, and they include more than 200 models. However, as the Minister of Justice said, the cornerstone of his bill is the registration system, a computerized record of names and particulars of all gun owners, along with a description of all the firearms they own.
On the eve of the new budget of the Liberal government, the proposals of the Minister of Justice raise a number of questions on the cost of implementing such a system at the national level. The minister was saying, on December 6, in Alberta, that it would cost at least $85 million to implement. He said that the cost would be spread over five years and that, afterwards, the system would generate revenues. The day before yesterday, during a press conference, he went back on his word and said that the cost would actually be spread over seven years. He demonstrated to the people that he has no idea of the possible cost of such a system and who should bear it.
Unfortunately, we can no longer rely on the minister's estimates since, in two months, he added two years to the amortization period. In a few months, will come before the Standing Committee on Justice to tell us that the costs will never be recovered?
We always asked for a self-financing system. How is the Minister of Justice going to finance his system? He said that gun owners would not have to pay a cent to get their new registration certificates. Current owners will simply have to pay renewal fees of $60 in five years.
He also states that new certificate holders will only have to pay a small fee of around $10. How can the minister claim that system costs will be paid off over five or seven years? Why not 10 years?
In the meantime, he is asking the provinces to loosen their purse strings to help him pay the bill. He is asking the provinces to help him administer a system whose costs are unknown. This means that not only gun buyers and owners but all taxpayers will pay.
As I said earlier, to the costs associated with the system we must add those associated with a possible increase in prison population. The Minister of Justice can manipulate numbers as much as he likes, but the fact remains that the costs of his bill will be supported by the entire population.
Another flagrant example of the lack of rigour in calculating costs is a January 19 memorandum from the office of the justice minister stating that the government hopes but cannot confirm that current gun owners will not have to pay fees to obtain certificates of ownership.
The memorandum goes on to explain that fees will go up over time to encourage early registration and that the government is hoping that fees will not be charged during the first year.
Terms like "hoping" and "cannot confirm" suggest that the minister does not know the first thing about arithmetic. He has no idea of how much ordinary taxpayers will have to pay. He does not have any idea of the costs associated with Bill C-68 and how much gun owners will have to pay. We are basically demanding that the Minister of Justice's mathematics be clarified.
Finally, can we really talk about a victory, as suggested by the minister, when we know that all this great system will not become operational until the next century? I doubt it.
On the subject of regulations, the justice minister has missed a golden opportunity to practice what he preaches. Regulations respecting the storage, display, handling and transportation of certain firearms is a legal jumble that his department would have trouble sorting out. These regulations have been in force since January 1, 1993, but a great many people are still not aware of their existence, let alone their requirements. Even the police, who are responsible for enforcing them, says they are unfamiliar with these regulations.
When I questioned him in the House on November 15, the Minister of Justice answered, and I quote: "I well understand that the challenge we face is to make Canadians understand and comply with safe storage requirements."
I reviewed his action plan and his bill inside out, but nowhere is any revision of these regulations to be found. Yet, the Minister of Justice claims universal registration of firearms is necessary to make owners more responsible vis-à-vis storage and transportation. How can gun owners be asked to be more responsible and comply with regulations that they do not know about or do not understand?
The danger with inadequate regulations is that improperly stored firearms and ammunition are readily available to an individual who yields to a suicidal or violent impulsion. On the other hand, if firearms and ammunition are not readily available, chances are the person will calm down. Statistics on deaths caused by firearms are alarming. In 1991, suicides accounted for 77 per cent of the 1,445 deaths caused by firearms. In 1992, out of 732 registered homicides in Canada, 246, or 34 per cent, were committed with a firearm.
In the last ten years, most homicides were committed with shotguns or hunting rifles. Three times out of four, a spouse is killed by a rifle or a shotgun.
In Quebec, from 1990 to 1992, there were 1,293 deaths caused by firearms, which represents an annual average of 425. In that same province, suicides account for three out of four deaths
caused by firearms, for a total of about 300 suicides per year. These statistics cannot be overlooked.
The inquest conducted in Montreal, last November, by coroner Anne-Marie David shed some light on the deficiencies, and the resulting dangers, related to inadequate regulations. Coroner David's report was released on January 26.
Throughout the hearings, the most frequent criticisms were related to the inconsistency of the current regulations. Lieutenant Guy Asselin of the Quebec provincial police testified and said: "The regulations are not necessarily clear, which does not help those who have to enforce them, nor those who want to comply with them".
The spokesperson for the Quebec police and fire chiefs' association, Mr. Richard Côté, made essentially the same comment when he said: "Police officers do not know how to interpret the law. You almost have to be a legal expert". Mr. Côté added that these regulations were included in the program of only two of the nine CEGEPs offering the police technology course, and that the related training lasted only a few hours.
If police officers themselves cannot understand the regulations, how can the Minister of Justice claim that his bill will increase safety at home? Police officers are not the only ones who do not know the regulations. Those who are directly concerned, and I am referring to the owners of firearms, hardly know there is such a thing as regulations on the safe storage of firearms.
A Léger & Léger poll has confirmed these disturbing facts. The poll was conducted from September 1 to September 13, 1994, among 515 owners of firearms residing in Quebec. When asked whether they knew about these regulations, only 53 per cent of respondents thought there was a law on storage, 31.8 per cent said no and 15.1 per cent were undecided. It is clear that, in addition to a national registration system, a thorough review and targeted advertising are necessary.
The Minister of Justice forgets that sometimes simple solutions are the most effective. If the government made it compulsory for businesses to supply individual locking systems for every firearm sold in this country, the problem would be practically solved.
The minister keeps repeating that registration of owners and firearms is just like getting a driver's licence or a licence for your car. If the minister had pursued his analogy, he would have realized that cars are sold with locking systems. I may have a driver's licence, but that does not mean I can start my neighbour's car without an ignition key.
My point is that every firearm sold in this country would have a device that would make it totally harmless. The owner would then be under the obligation to keep the firearm locked at all times, failing which he would be breaking the law. In this way, gun collectors would be able to exhibit their pieces, and in season, hunters would be able to practise their favourite sport.
I support the recommendations of coroner David, in which she urged the Minister of Justice to amend the wording of the regulations for storage, display and safe transportation of firearms, to make them more consistent and ensure they are more readily understood by the general public.
Similarly, the Minister of Justice should pay particular attention to the recommendation that the regulations be changed to oblige people selling guns to lock or disarm all weapons intended for sale and to prevent them from storing restricted firearms anywhere but in a vault and prevent the delivery to a customer of a firearm not equipped with a safety catch.
In conclusion, I believe that setting up a national registration system is a positive step, subject to my earlier comments. I must, however, say again that I find it most regrettable that the Minister of Justice bowed to pressure from the gun lobby. By spreading owner and weapon registration over eight years, the minister is stating very clearly that he does not want the system implemented during his term of office. Furthermore, I believe the minister backed off significantly from his original plan of action by permitting the purchase and sale of handguns between owners of the same type of weapons.
Finally, it appears that the minister has not yet completed his consultations and that he is now leaving it up to the Standing Committee on Justice. He wants the committee to look at the following questions: Should we allow the owners of prohibited firearms to bequeath these weapons to their children? Are there handguns that may be used for target practice? Will the use of replicas of powder fired guns be allowed at celebrations?
The minister should have assumed the consequences of his choices himself rather than force the parliamentary committee to make some of the unpleasant decisions.
In closing, we hope the minister still has sufficient leeway to take our recommendations into consideration.