Larry Bagnell

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to reply to all of those concerns. First, on scrutiny, the member is right. It is a good system. We have our laws and we have scrutiny of regulations for them. There is nothing to say that the Westbank First Nation might not develop that system for its laws. Maybe some provinces would for their laws. So there is no problem with having a second look at regulations.

Another point was, why not allow non-aboriginals to run for council? Yesterday we presented the Tlicho self-government agreement, a very creative agreement, and under that agreement, non-aboriginals are allowed to run for community governments. The member voted against that agreement.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know where to start as there were a lot of areas. The first thing I mentioned this morning in my opening remarks was that if there was any opposition, I was hoping to get it in on the record today so we could debate it.

As the member mentioned and as I mentioned earlier, as we have moved along there has been more and more agreement. As people begin to understand the various clauses, which makes the agreement more binding, and their benefits, they come on side.

The concerns people had about meetings and having their say, this particular agreement with this 99 page constitution, as was mention by another member this morning who went into all the details about transparency and accountability, gives much more accountability, transparency and assurance that the people living on reserve will have their say and that things will go in an orderly fashion, not that I have heard any complaints to date anyway, but they will be even more regulated in that respect because of a constitution that is excessively detailed.

With regard to the many legal challenges, perhaps the member could outline what might be a legal challenge, because of course there have been all sorts of lawyers working on this. I believe there are 17 self-government agreements in the country already. Some of them are constitutionally protected and there have been no challenges to those. I do not think it will take years of wrangling if the only question is on health care, because that could be answered in five minutes by a lawyer. Health care is not one of the powers in this agreement, although it is in other land claim self-government agreements.

This may perhaps get the member more worried but section 222 contains a list of items that we may look for in future negotiations and the powers in which they could become involved. One of those is section 8, which mentions health, in addition to what is provided for in respect of traditional aboriginal medicine in this agreement.

Why would people be opposed to giving a certain group of people, whoever they are, the ability to regulate their own language, culture and all these things in their area when the majority of the surrounding governments agree, the municipalities, the province of British Columbia and all the adjacent people?

The member is correct, and I said it earlier, there are people who disagree, both on and off the reserve, but it is certainly not anywhere near a majority. Perhaps he could follow up on some of those areas.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, section 35 does not trigger section 25. Section 25 applies all across the country. It applies now; nothing changes. The Westbank agreement does not change anything. If there were a problem it would still be there, but there is no problem. Section 25 does not make people immune to the charter. The charter has to be sensitive to certain aboriginal rights.

The member mentioned in his speech that we have to go back to the act of Confederation of 1867 as a base. If we are to go back in history, then what does the member have to say about the royal proclamation of 1763 and the rights that came under it? Do we have to go back to that type of governance? What about before the royal proclamation when there were first nation governments on this continent for thousands of years and quite successful governments from their perspective? What about going back that far?

I do not think we can go back to an arbitrary point in time and say we have to have the number of governments that were specified at that time. Lawyers have already said that this does not create another level of government anyway.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, there was a lot there that would allow us to have a very interesting debate in the time remaining.

First, I do not understand the premise that this would alter the Canadian Constitution or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. After Meech Lake and the Charlottetown accord, people know how difficult it is to change the Constitution. A lot of people would like to make it easier to change but one does not just change the Constitution.

The other reference I do not understand, which all parties have made numerous times, concerns the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The fact is that the charter has applied and will continue to apply equally to those on the Westbank reserve and all across Canada. I do not understand their argument on that and I would like some clarification so I can debate it.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Oh, that was in the Tlicho bill. The charter and human rights apply to everyone. There is no problem there.

I would just like the member to give one last comment on the third order of government problem that he has. It is quite clear and has been decided by the Supreme Court of Canada that although we have government to government to government relationships as far as operational types of relationships, the Constitution still has only two orders of government, and this does not create a third. This is operational and because it can be changed any time by the federal government, it is not permanently giving up any powers.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, maybe we will ponder this more. I think that if the member looks at my arguments and looks at how it has worked so far, he may have more assurances, but let us go on to another area that the member raised, that of the charter.

A member raised a point about the charter, in that a statement saying “not less than the provisions of the charter” was made, and members were worried about that statement. All I will say about that in clarification is that this actually was put in there not to have less provisions than the charter to protect people, but to have more.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, to continue, I think I probably would agree with the member's concern if we were working in a total vacuum. Of course once the law is in place, if it covers what he would like, then there is no problem, because it cannot be changed. But I think if we take in the context that this law is being developed in full consultation with the non-members, with the advisory council and the first nation, the law will probably reflect what the member wants but more importantly it will reflect what the non-aboriginal people in the area want.

Now if it were to go off the rails for some reason, if there were a bad influence that got in there, that law could still be challenged under the charter. It has to be charter proof and safe, so there can still be challenges. Of course anything else in this agreement can be challenged in court. There is protection for everyone in that respect, so I will beg the member's indulgence.

Because of the cooperative system that is in place, because the non-aboriginal people are designing this law, and because once in place it cannot be changed, this sort of liberal and flexible component allows them to come up with the best method of election and best provisions--in this case when they have such a good working relationship--and may lead to a creative process that the member would be happy with.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I want to try to clarify the member's concerns and have a good discussion. I want to make sure we have them clear, because they are very technical. It is good that he has brought them up because we have not really discussed any of this today. It is a good point.

First, of course, I have to disagree with his comments about haste. I think we have been in negotiations for 10 years now and, as I mentioned, we have had 400 consultations, so I do not consider this hasty.

On the committee and once the law is put in place, the member mentioned some good elements that were in the draft, which is great, mentioning that the concerns would be taken care of if that draft goes through. The point of the item he read out, which is clause 54(d) of the agreement, is that once it is enacted, in place and effective, it cannot be changed--and he said this is an admirable clause, which is good--without the consent of the non-aboriginal people. That is as good at solidifying it as if it were in the agreement itself.

Under this system, they certainly have far more representation than they did before the agreement. As we know, and as I mentioned in my speech, before the agreement, and probably because of the competence of the Westbank First Nation, those 7,500 or so people and 200 businesses have chosen to locate there. They have chosen to do so because of the good governance there.

Originally there was no representation, although they have the advisory council. I think we have to take this in good faith because of that experience. The advisory council has had 43 meetings already, so that shows the good faith in its dealings with non-aboriginal people. Of course, the first nation needs them too. It is a great partnership. I think we have to take in good faith that it will continue in good faith, and of course once that law is in place it cannot be changed without the non-aboriginal people saying that, even if they get a council they disagree with.

I wonder if the member could comment on that particular provision and protection for his concern.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, following up what the member said, there was also a survey recently. I think on March 22 I received the results of the non-aboriginal people and of course in that survey the majority were also in favour.

The member referred to the other vote we had last night on the Tlicho claim and self-government agreement. I hope, once we do information sessions and we sort some things out in committee, that the same type of rationale and knowledge will come out because it is totally different, but there are some tremendous things in that agreement that are very exciting.

For instance, non-native aboriginal persons can actually get elected to a council in that agreement. I am not sure if we have a model like that anywhere. So not only do they have a guaranteed committee representation in this agreement, but they can actually get elected on the community councils. If they are elected, of course, they will have all sorts of say over taxation and the other elements that affect their communities. I look forward to the debate on that aspect.

I would like to ask the member a question, for people who are tuning in at home. I know that there are many seniors watching and they may not be too familiar with what we are talking about. Since this is the member's constituency, could he go back to the basics and describe the environment and the area for people who do not know what we are talking about? Could he describe how this relates to the community and the surrounding governments such as the regional government and the surrounding Okanagan group of nations that are working together? People will then know how it all fits together and, as he said, how it is working so well with so much cooperation.

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 22nd, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member, as many other members have, for dispelling more of the myths and the concerns. Any time we have something new and creative, and of course running a government is very complex, there are all sorts of things people may have concerns about till they have them dispelled and the member did an excellent job. I would like to give him a chance to speak further, because it is his constituency, if there is more he wanted to say.

I am delighted he brought up the spiritual aspect of first nations people. It is just amazing how spiritual they are. I remember going to a session in a very tiny village. Part of the program was a church service. More Anglican ministers came out of the woodwork than I had seen in the rest of the whole territory. They are coming to us, I suppose, to lead us in spirit these days, so I do not think people have to worry about spiritualism. The Canadian Human Rights Act applies and in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as all hon. members know, there is protection of religious rights.

I also wanted to commend the hon. member for bringing up the item of taxation without representation. I will just add to what he said. He made very good points. The fact is that taxation laws come under section 83 of the Indian Act, which is of course Canadian law, so they have representation there. The Supreme Court has also determined that taxation laws will not have taxation without representation. Both the Indian Act and this agreement have come through a legislature. Although this agreement is not affecting taxation, it is still using section 83 of the Indian Act. It came out of a federal statute, and of course all citizens who live there are represented by the federal government.

Perhaps the member would like to carry on further.