Ralph Goodale

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, what the hon. member has described is an important concept. Part of what we contract for in terms of the various goods and services we acquire on behalf of the Government of Canada is related to upfront capital costs, and part of course is related to operating costs over time.

Earlier this evening we had a good example of the distinction when a question was asked about the federal buildings initiative. By and large, if we install energy efficient equipment in either new buildings or retrofits the upfront capital cost will be higher. However after a while it is amortized and we make savings on lower energy bills. The way we have done this through the federal buildings initiative has been so successful it is now entirely financed by the private sector which gets paid back over time on the savings that come from energy efficiency. The upfront capital cost is higher but the ongoing operating costs are sufficiently lower that we are ahead of the game and the private sector makes a profit.

I refer to this to underscore the member's point that there are two elements: initial cost and operating cost. We should be prepared to look for the best long term value because a cost is a cost whether it is initial capital or operating costs over time. Both are important from the taxpayer's point of view.

The whole issue of procurement reform is something we take seriously. I will try to make it a priority in finding better ways to achieve value for taxpayers.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, this whole subject area is a fascinating field of technological development that 10 years ago was essentially unheard of. In this day and age we are right in the thick of the so-called e-commerce, e-government phenomenon. It is revolutionizing the way in which governments around the world do business. Those governments that are the most successful and those that are prepared to lead the pack will be the ones that have a decidedly significant competitive advantage in this knowledge based, technology driven, highly skilled world in which we live. Both of the things the hon. gentleman mentioned in his question are a part of that.

For the benefit of some hon. members and perhaps anybody who may be watching this evening, the MERX system, the government electronic tendering service, advertises procurement opportunities subject to national and international trade agreements and is provided under contract by the Bank of Montreal using the service called MERX. That is where the acronym comes from.

The previously existing MERX contract was to expire at the end of May 2002 and it was extended under certain procedures. For the information of members I would note that a complaint has been received about the contract extension by the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, which is a trade resolution dispute mechanism in Canada. Because that complaint has been raised and referred to the CITT, it is not possible for me to comment in detail about anything else having to do with the contract extension because the CITT will deal with it in a quasi-judicial process in due course.

On the point about the fee that was charged, the evidence was pretty compelling that at the previous level the MERX system was losing money. If we were to continue this service on this broad based electronic basis to companies all across the country, a fee increment was required to keep it viable. I appreciate that moving from $5 a month to $30 a month is a hefty increase, but even at $30 a month it is less than some newspaper subscriptions and less than the average cable bill. It is a reasonably small amount of money.

Nevertheless, because the hon. gentleman has raised it and, as he mentioned, it has been raised in a committee of the House, I will certainly make some inquiries about the reasonableness of the fee increase and whether there is any possibility of any recourse with respect to it. However, it is important for this system to pay its way so that it can be available on a broad basis across the country.

With respect to the secure channel that the hon. gentleman referred to, this is another dimension of e-government and one in which my department is playing a leading role in establishing. Once it is completed, the secure channel will serve as a fundamental component to enable highly secured, responsive and economical online access to Government of Canada information and services, services such as: registering a business online; obtaining a federal business number; paying corporate taxes online; giving a company the ability to securely view its accounts with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency online; and status requests for immigrant applications on behalf of Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Those are some examples of the kinds of transactions that we want to be able to do online.

Because of the nature of the information involved in just those few examples I referred to or in other cases with respect to veterans' benefits or commercial transactions and so forth, I think colleagues in the House would see why security on this channel is an extremely important thing. In order for Canadians to have confidence that they can use this new technology to its maximum advantage, they need to be assured about its security, therefore we are leading the way in establishing this secure channel.

Services such as registering a change of address with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency should be available online by the end of the summer of this year. Services such as an individual between jobs being able to apply for employment insurance benefits or for job training approvals online with HRDC, Human Resources Development Canada, should be available by the fall of this year.

Services from Veterans Affairs, such as applying for veterans' benefits online, services such as being able to competitively bid for federal government contracts online with my department, services such as the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Export and Import Controls Bureau's online system, all those services where privacy and security are key elements, are on the future agenda, which we hope to accomplish at the earliest possible date.

We have a schedule of how we intend to move forward in this regard. We want to do it right. We want to get the security right and we want to get the service right so that Canadians can deal with their government efficiently and in the absolute confidence that their information will be safe and secure. We want to make Canada the leader in the world in e-government and we are moving in that direction.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Nine days.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, I know that the hon. gentleman has a very passionate interest in this subject. I dealt with one dimension of it when I was House leader in terms of the answering of questions so I understand his interest and sincerity.

The information I have before me is that the value of the assets that would be remaining in that particular warehouse would be something less than $1 million and that they have been disposed of in the proper manner for proper value received.

I will undertake the commitment this evening, even though I have not had a chance yet to fully explore this issue, to review it with my officials. Previous questions and answers notwithstanding, I will do my very best to provide as much information as I possibly can to alleviate the concern that the member has expressed.

My understanding is that there is nothing at all untoward about these circumstances, but because of the member's persistence on the subject I will try to be as forthcoming as I can as rapidly as I can as soon as I have the details.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, there were a remarkable number of questions in a very short space. If the member could bear with me, I suspect there may be a supplementary.

The creation of cabinet committees, the staffing of cabinet committees and the chairing of cabinet committees is the prerogative of the Prime Minister. Since I have been in this role now for only nine days, I must confess I have not had an opportunity to discuss this particular matter with him or with the new Minister of National Defence. We will no doubt get to that very shortly because we understand the importance and the magnitude and the urgency of the situation.

I am at a bit of a disadvantage tonight. I really have not had an opportunity to canvass this fully with the Prime Minister or other members of cabinet.

I can tell the hon. member that a process is moving forward with respect to the procurement of the maritime helicopter. She will know that on January 29 we did post a draft pre-qualification letter and the latest specifications for the basic vehicle on the MHP website.

The deadline for industry feedback on that draft was March 15. We are now in the process of reviewing all of the comments received. We continue to dialogue with industry on this matter to ensure that when the process is formally launched, it is open, fair and transparent and not subject to challenge after the fact.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, obviously during election campaigns candidates for all political parties are trying to make the most aggressive, convincing and compelling cases that they can make on behalf of their respective political affiliation.

Whether it is during an election or otherwise, I am sure the member for Saint John has a very colourful inventory of arguments as to why her electors would want to vote for her, not the least of which is that very exciting blue Santa Claus outfit that she wears every Christmas.

Let me say that all of us in this place have a duty to rise above our partisan considerations. When we are in this Chamber, which is a remarkably privileged place in our democracy, we have a duty to act on behalf of all Canadians.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, my best information this evening is that it deals with the GST in the normal fashion. If the hon. gentleman would just bear with me on that rather technical question, I will check further to see if I can get him some better information, if not tonight, then in the next day or so. However my information is that the normal GST applies.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have been asked similar questions in the House in the last number of days. They have pointed out that perhaps there were some comments by the Prime Minister that were taken out of context and misinterpreted.

The real gist of what the Prime Minister was saying is something that I repeated earlier this evening in my opening remarks. We are determined to find the administrative mistakes and problems and to ensure that they are corrected. Where there may be overpayments, we certainly want to see that money recovered and recollected by the Government of Canada. If there is any evidence of illegality on the part of anyone, that must be investigated and prosecuted under the law.

It is certainly my intention to make sure that for the future this program stands up to the tests of transparency, accountability and value for taxpayers' dollars that Canadians would expect and that the problems that existed in the past are properly pursued.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, again on the basis of the information that is before me at the present time, information that would be drawn from our own internal audit or information that would be drawn from the work of the auditor general thus far, there is no evidence that I am aware of, of fraud or misuse of public funds or criminal intent.

I would say that if and when there are any suspicious circumstances that come to the attention of me or of my officials, we are not only honour bound but indeed under the legal duty to refer those matters to the appropriate police authorities. Those authorities decide quite independently, as should be the case, whether an investigation should be launched and in what direction that investigation should go. The police are totally independent in making those decisions.

I want the hon. gentleman to know that we are pursuing all of these issues in a very assiduous way. I for one want to get to the bottom of any questionable circumstances as rapidly as possible and have the course of justice pursued.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the internal audit that was done by the internal audit section of Public Works and Government Services Canada found, in relation to that period of time from 1997 to 2000, deficiencies in documentation. There were deficiencies in contracting procedures and in management practices.

But that internal audit did not disclose evidence of fraud, misuse of funds or criminal intent. Similarly, in the findings of the auditor general it seems to me on a fair reading of her report that she found unacceptable management practices and procedures but did not make a finding of political interference.

What has happened subsequent to that is that she of course is undertaking a full value for money audit on a government wide basis with respect to all sponsorships and advertising activity. In addition, either the auditor general or the other appropriate government officials, if and when matters requiring legal action were drawn to their attention, would make the appropriate reference to police authorities.

The evidence would show that all of the necessary steps are being taken to ensure that the level of probity that the hon. member would seek to achieve is being pursued aggressively by me, and by the department.

I would add one small point about political representations made by members of parliament. There were some allusions in the hon. member's question to that indirectly. It is perfectly legitimate for members of parliament to indicate to the minister responsible for a program that they support that program or a particular application under that program.

There are letters on file with my officials from members of all political parties in the House indicating their support for particular sponsorship initiatives. We would not want that form of representation on the part of members of parliament to be in any way impugned or limited, and I do not think the hon. member meant that in his question but I wanted to make the point clear.