Ralph Goodale

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, there is one interesting statistic. Back in 1995 when the current Minister of Health was the energy minister she set the target, in terms of greenhouse gases from federal government operations, to reduce them to 20% below 1990 levels and to reach that target by 2005. We have already reached that target. Our new target is now to get to 1990 levels minus 31% by the year 2010 and we are confident we will reach that.

The federal buildings initiative is a key part of this. It is so innovative. The private sector finances it and is paid back through the energy efficiency savings over time. It is a terrific program. We have promoted it reasonably well. We can go a lot further. I am glad to say that the public works department is one of the leaders in promoting this program through the Government of Canada.

At the moment I do not have a specific timeline to offer the member, but I refer him to the government House in order commitment that we made under action plan 2000 for Kyoto. He will find more detail there in terms of how we intend to pursue it.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the statistics I have available to me on the question would indicate that back in 1997, which I believe was the year referred to in the question, in Canada's case, competitive contracting stood at the 80% level. At that time it was significantly higher than Europe which was at 63% or the United States which was at 63%, or Japan which was at 73%. We were doing better than most of the world even in the situation that was referred to in the question and described as unacceptable back in 1997.

I am pleased to report that in the intervening five years the Canadian performance has continued to improve and for the latest year for which statistics are available, which would be the calendar year 2000, 92% of the total value of government contracts in Canada were awarded competitively. We have moved up from 80% to 92%.

I agree with the general sentiment in the hon. member's question that we should be striving for competitive bidding to the maximum extent possible. There will be circumstances based upon pressing emergencies, dollar values, the public interest, or the single capabilities of a particular supplier where sole sourcing will make the best public policy. However that should be the exception and not the rule.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the nine firms that are acknowledged as standing agents for this program, as it stands at the moment, were all selected by means of a competitive process. My predecessor identified some of the problems with the present roster, including the issue of regional balance. He indicated, while he was Minister of Public Works and Government Services, that we would go through the process again of a new request for proposals and a new selection of standing agents. That process is to commence on or about June 15, with a full national competition to be concluded in the fall.

Certainly one of the objectives of this new exercise would be to remedy any deficiencies that are apparent in the list, including the question of regional balance. That is something that will unfold over the course of the next number of months.

I would also note in my answer the caveat that the hon. gentleman referred to in his question and that is, for the future there may or there may not be a requirement for external agencies at all. That remains to be determined and I am certainly looking at the alternative of not requiring such agencies for the delivery of a program like this one.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, first regarding the hon. member's initial comments about investing in ways in Canada, that build inclusiveness, cohesiveness, adhesion and a sense of unity, it is appropriate to note that we live in a fair, decent, diverse and tolerant country, one that is the envy of much of the rest of the world. When we see events as they are unfolding at the moment in places like the Middle East and elsewhere, it indicates what a precious thing it is to have the capacity as we do to live together so successfully in our diversity, and we need to contribute to all of that. I support the sentiment he has expressed about the sponsorship program where it contributes to that kind of attitude.

The problems we are dealing with tonight are ones that existed in an old style program prior to the year 2000. Since 2000, we have been working hard to identify the problem areas and to make the necessary corrections. We have made progress. We have a way to go yet. We will certainly be examining delivery mechanisms that will improve upon the situation that existed in the past. Coming from Saskatchewan, the province next door to his, I always look for regional balance, regional equity, regional consistency and that will be one of the objectives for which I will strive.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, obviously all of us want to ensure that these matters are dealt with completely. I have only had a week and a day to get to know my new officials but I have no doubt that they are endeavouring in every way to be open, transparent and forthright. They very much want to be associated with program successes that are a credit to the department, to the government and to all Canadians. I believe they will do their very best to be completely forthcoming with the committee.

If some legal impediment stands in the way, I do not know of it. If there is one, I would be happy to look at it and see if there is a way it can be removed. My view at the moment, based on my very brief association with my very good officials, is that they will co-operate in every way to deal with the issues that are outstanding and improve things for the future.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, first, let me thank the hon. member for his kind words. I hope he and I and all other members of the House can work constructively to ensure that in the future some of the problems we are discussing tonight are avoided and that we can refer someone else's estimates to the committee of the whole so other ministers can enjoy this exciting phenomenon.

I would have to apply one caveat. In any matters that have been referred to police authorities,at this stage no charges have been laid and no findings have been concluded. We need to be careful when arriving at conclusions before police investigations, and in some cases before they have even been launched, have arrived at a result. In deference to the legal process, we need to be careful about that.

On the point about the arguments that need to be mustered about how best to change the administrative process, I will certainly be looking at a whole range of models for how we might do this in future. I would welcome the input of members of the House of Commons either individually or perhaps through the new committee on government operations and the estimates. That might be an appropriate vehicle. Let me just say that my door is open. If anyone has a good idea on how to do this better, I would be more than happy to have all the advice I can get.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, as the hon. gentleman no doubt knows, the Francophonie games are a very large undertaking wherever they may be held in the world from time to time. In the case of the event that was held in Canada, the planning and preparation was spread over a number of years. In particular there was sponsorship activity over a two year period.

Given the nature of the event, I think it is fair to say that budgets and requirements change over time. This happens from time to time. It is not the normal case with every file, but in some cases, particularly when we are dealing with large international events, the budgetary requirements periodically change.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, my predecessor looked at this very situation when it was drawn to his attention. He found it to be unacceptable and he invited a full audit by the auditor general of three particular contracts with that particular firm. At the same time he suspended business activity under the sponsorship program with that firm.

The auditor general did her work. She concluded that those particular contracts were unacceptable and she made certain references to police authorities as she should have done.

Accordingly, the matter is being pursued in the appropriate manner by the government, by the auditor general and by the police authorities. We are just as anxious as any other member of the House to make sure that particular issue is fully ventilated and that the proper course of justice is taken.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, I have two or three points in response.

On the issue of transparency, I think in this whole difficult controversy we are seeing transparency at work. For example, the statistics that have been referred to this evening about the value of sponsorships in past years and the commissions paid and so forth, that information is made accessible either through our websites or through the well established access to information procedure. That form of accessibility and transparency is obviously working as it should.

With respect to the financing of the Canadian political system, we have a law governing that subject that requires disclosure and publication. That system is working as it should.

There are some well established examples of transparency here that are functioning quite well.

In terms of the hon. gentleman's basic point about sponsorships that are contributed by the Government of Canada being a use of taxpayer dollars, that absolutely goes without saying. If a sponsorship is offered by a private sector corporation, as the hon. gentleman said, the corporation obviously has a responsibility to its shareholders. In the case of a sponsorship offered by a government, whether it is the Government of Canada, the government of a province or the government of a municipality, then the shareholder is the taxpayer.

I want to assure the hon. gentleman of my absolute respect for the taxpayer's dollar and my determination that in the sponsorship program there will be transparency and accountability. The taxpayer will get value for the dollars expended.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, there are two things. First, as I have said in two previous answers, I share some of the concerns that have been expressed by the hon. gentleman about the dollar values involved and the value for money received. I intend to look at this question very carefully to see if there is a better delivery mechanism that would avoid the problems of the past.

I would also point out that it would not be accurate to say that none of the contracting agencies did any work. In fact the opposite is true. Their obligation is to plan the purchases of the appropriate media and sponsorship tools; to provide the necessary databases and measurement techniques; to co-ordinate and adjust the overall sponsorship plans; to co-ordinate with creative agencies to purchase the right material; to stick within the guidelines to confirm media placements and so forth; and to deal with invoices, proofs of performances and so forth. If they are in that agency of record category, which is the 3% that was referred to earlier, there are specific contract obligations that have to be performed.

That having been said, I want to repeat that I am looking at my alternatives for the future because I want transparency and I definitely want value for the taxpayers' money.