Public Accounts committee  Yes, I think that is the million-dollar question around standardization. The tech is always something we should be cautious about, but it doesn't scare me as much business standardization does. Certainly, that's been an issue I've dealt with in large organizations. Phoenix is a very good example of where the final product was to be one pay system and one HR system.

Public Accounts committee  I think there are a couple of things. The pay system gives us a good practical example of that: hold the government accountable; hold the public service accountable to getting to a common instance of HR and have leadership—

Public Accounts committee  Yes, you've got it. There are two things. One is, I think, clear targets with consequences on standardization of pay, as an example. I would use that as a very specific example: By this date, get to one or two instances of HR. I think the other one is that as government is defining new programs, they are wondering if they can do it in the system or if it is going to take them 18 months to code.

Public Accounts committee  I will pass that to my—

Public Accounts committee  That would be perfect.

Public Accounts committee  I think Scott described that very well. I'll add maybe three points. First is that the Treasury Board Secretariat's CIO office has published guidance around using AI, and specifically generative AI, as that emerges. I think we have some really good leading policy work in that space.

Public Accounts committee  I don't think it's okay that our staff are not paid properly. I don't think there's any deputy sitting in the room, or anybody in government, who thinks that where we are with pay is okay. From an IBM perspective, I think it would be very easy to point the finger, but it was a multisystem failure in terms of Phoenix.

Public Accounts committee  That is a good question, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné; thank you for that. I would say that I absolutely agree with the conclusion of the Auditor General. I think about one of the pieces of language used in the report. I might just highlight that we really must focus on modernization and maybe be a little bit less ambitious around transformation.

Public Accounts committee  Those were three rapid-fire questions; I hope I get the answers to all three. One, you are correct. We don't have all the information. We are putting in place a new system in 2024 that is going to assist with that. We have enough of the right information that we shouldn't wait until we get more fulsome information to go.

Public Accounts committee  I might contrast it with some of the differences I've noted from doing this in a number of private sector organizations. A fundamental lack of prioritization is getting in the way of progress. The numbers are staggering when you think about 38% healthy. The unhealthy number is high, and we can't tackle those at once.

Public Accounts committee  I'm sorry. Is that a question for me or for Scott?

Public Accounts committee  Scott, would you like to go first?

Public Accounts committee  Yes. Good morning. The irony of the CIO having tech problems getting into the meeting is not lost on me. I hope my audio is working fine. I'm going to just add to my colleague's comments. The chief information officer and my office are accountable for the overall leadership of IT, and for service and digital transformations across government.

Information & Ethics committee  Thank you for the opportunity.

Information & Ethics committee  I will defer to the deputy commissioner on that in terms of external, but from an internal perspective, certainly, the guidance we're providing inside government is to ensure we have transparency around where we're using AI and, certainly, from a generative AI perspective, doing the same.