Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Angus asked, am I opposed to redress? Mr. Chairman, absolutely not. I'm the minister who successfully managed to oversee the redress of the Chinese Head Tax and Exclusion Act, something that was not done or ever addressed by previous governments.

I'm the minister who brought about, for the first time ever, working with the Jewish community on the St. Louis incident and will recognize the country's refusal to accept European Jewish refugees during the Second World War. There was a failure to address that by previous governments. I'm the minister who successfully came to an arrangement with eastern and central European communities about the history of the First World War internment.

I'm also the minister who tried very hard to come to an agreement with four organizations in the Italian-Canadian community who did not qualify, according to our officials, for the kind of funding they were asking for, Mr. Chairman. And do I think there should be an apology? I think there was an apology, and I accept that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay.

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you to the minister for his testimony.

Minister, you've been a member of this House since 1997. Ms. Minna alluded to needing to put something on the record in this committee, quite vociferously I would argue. Between the time of 1997 and today.... Well, let's go back to 1997 to 2005, when she was a minister in a previous government. Do you ever recall her putting anything on the record to the extent of what she said today?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Actually, Mr. Chairman, on this issue, the only statements by the previous governments of Canada, from 1993 to 2006, were from Prime Minister Chrétien indicating there would be no consideration of these requests for redress. He reiterated Prime Minister Trudeau's words that these actions were in the past and that we should focus exclusively on the future. That was reiterated by former Minister of State Sheila Finestone and former Minister of Canadian Heritage Sheila Copps.

I've been unable to find anywhere on the parliamentary record any comments to the contrary by any members of that government, including Ms. Minna.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

We've gone through this list. We've talked about how Pierre Trudeau said emphatically the matter was closed. There would be no excuses, no compensation, and no apology. That's the Liberal record. Jean Chrétien said the same thing. Paul Martin did nothing until an ACE agreement, which had no money budgeted, was hastily crafted when the government was in its death throes. You've indicated that you've looked into this. You can't find any reference to these funds that are claimed, and I appreciate that.

I want to refer to something. Do you know one thing that's really bothering me? I've indicated to you personally that my family was in this country when this occurred. When this occurred, there had been decades of racism and so forth, I would argue, shame that extended beyond this, and to the best of my knowledge I'm the only person whose family was in this country at that time. I said the other day that I don't claim to be a better Canadian of Italian descent than anybody else on this committee, but I do speak to it with experience. My father actually did change his name, as did a lot of his family members, so they would fit in better. My grandparents refused to speak Italian in the house, even though their English was bad, because they wanted their kids to be Canadian and not to be discriminated against.

One thing that really bothers me is the impugnment of solid Canadians who have stepped forward to work on a historical recognition program. I want to refer to something written by.... And you know, this is this elitist attitude, Ms. Minna, once again, impugning Canadians who have stepped forward.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

It's not an elitist attitude.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

That is elitist. And I'll tell you that Angelo Persichilli is a Canadian writer of Italian descent, somebody I have a great deal of respect for. Maybe Ms. Minna thinks he might be okay. Angelo Persichilli wrote:

This committee formed to manage the funds available at the government of Stephen Harper and appropriately placed under the guidance of a person as intelligent and balanced as Pal Di Julio who will give clear instructions on how to spend this money and may be the last word on this ugly page in Canadian history.

Can you understand why opposition members are impugning Pal Di Julio, a solid Canadian, a person who I know works hard within the Italian community, a person who personally put aside—I don't know—dozens and dozens and dozens of hours just this past summer raising money for the Abruzzo earthquake fund? Can you understand why he apparently is not a good enough Canadian of Italian descent to advise the government and to work with Italian groups across this country to recognize this incident? Why do you think the members across the way think Pal Di Julio isn't a good enough Canadian of Italian descent?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I don't know, Mr. Chairman. I think it's regrettable that people are attacking the integrity of individuals who have stepped forward—voluntarily, by the way, without compensation—to provide us with this kind of advice. I should say that our experience with other advisory committees we've named in the context of historical recognition has been very positive, and essentially the vast majority of applications are approved. They're there to make sure the applications are relevant to the experience, in their judgment.

I'm pleased to say we have received many applications for projects—very worthwhile projects, I think—from across the expanse of the Canadian-Italian community, including from local chapters of the National Congress of Italian-Canadians.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Very good.

I'd like to point something else out. It will be very quick. It's in response to Madame Lavallée.

The Italian community has great women in leadership, and in fact in the early 1990s it was Annamarie Castrilli who brought this issue forward and worked with the Mulroney government at the time to bring about the apology. Ms. Castrilli is an accomplished lawyer and a fantastic leader within the Italian community, and she and I continue to have a great open dialogue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you. We'll go to Mr. Rodriguez, please.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you may think that the apology issued by Mr. Mulroney was enough, but that is not what the community believes. We are concerned about how the community feels today and about the importance of issuing a formal apology. To my mind, and in the opinion of this community, an apology made in a reception hall does not have the same impact as a formal apology issued in the Parliament of Canada. That is what the community is demanding.

Before I make my point, I just wanted to share with you a concern that I have. You stated that you were not familiar with Mr. Perin's political views, and I find that worrisome. The fact that you referred to him by name should mean that you are familiar with his views, At the very least, your advisers should have briefed you on what this man has written and what he thinks about this whole matter.

Getting back to the testimony presented last week, we heard from the Italian community's largest groups, the ones that traditionally represent and have been mandated to represent the community. I put the question to each group, as I did to the CIBPA the week before that. There was unanimous support for the bill.

Let me share with you a few of the comments they made. For example, regarding the agreement-in-principle that you alluded to that was reached with the Martin government, they had this to say: Minister Kenney decided unilaterally, for reasons that defy comprehension, to go ahead with a new program that does not have the support of the main organizations within the Italian-Canadian community. As for the advisory committee that was set up, it is said to be a program advisory committee that represents the Italian community and that no organization...

So then, Minister, there is a fundamental problem when reputable organizations that have been recognized for decades are unanimous in their support for the bill. None was consulted about doing away with the program established in 2005 and none was consulted about setting up an advisory committee. Do you not see that there is a fundamental problem here owing to the fact that the Minister acted unilaterally?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Rodriguez.

You have to understand that this issue has been around for six decades. Several governments have failed in their attempt to put in place a process to commemorate the events surrounding the internment. When I met with the four organizations that co-signed the agreement- in-principle, I gave them the opportunity to set up an advisory committee.

I offered to those organizations to nominate members to the advisory board. They declined. Their position was that they wanted an endowment fund. I looked at the possibility of an endowment fund, and my officials advised it would not comply with the law. I have to comply with the law, but I also wanted to move forward on the issue and I thought this was the best way to do so.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'll quote him again. They were here 48 hours ago: “We chose to continue the negotiations with the government, with Minister Bev Oda, with Minister Kenney, only to be insulted, only to be put aside when they came up with this program which had never been discussed, had never been approved by anyone, with people on this consultative committee.”

That was a double insult to the Italian community.

There is a rift between your government and the main groups representing the Italian community because they feel insulted, and doubly so. I have here a letter addressed to you from Mr. Ciaccia. It reads as follows:

“Your plan of action announced on March 21...under the community historical reparation plan has no legitimacy and simply does not make any sense.”

He goes on to say: “For all of the above we submit that bypassing the legitimate community organizations who have been negotiating with the government in good faith is simply misguided and unacceptable.”

You never replied to that letter. Why?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'm sorry, I receive thousands of letters. I can't recall. Did I not reply? I'm not sure.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It was sent to you on March 31. It's not to just anybody.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'd be happy to look into that, Mr. Chairman. I can't recall off the top of my head the dates of replies to thousands of letters that I receive.

But for the sake of clarity I will say that in my discussions with the representatives of the four organizations, which we held in good faith, and which is why I looked at the possibility of an endowment transfer, I indicated that we could not do the endowment transfer but that the government could administer the funds and disburse them to eligible projects on the advice of an advisory board made up in part of representatives of the community organizations. They decided for their own reasons not to participate.

I was of the view, Mr. Chairman, that after so many years of inaction on this file we should move forward and make funds available to the broader community—not to one or two individuals but to the broader community—and that's exactly what we did.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. The minister said that he consulted documents and never saw the $12.5 million. Could he table the documents he consulted, please?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

No, because there are no such documents.

Mr. Chairman, let me be clear about this. The $12.5 million never existed. It was a phantom; it was a lie, Mr. Chairman.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I invite members of the opposition to make access to information requests—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Are you saying the Prime Minister of Canada is a liar, or are you saying the Italian community are liars?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

—from Finance, from Heritage, from my ministry to see whether there is any single official government document that refers to $12.5 million. There's not, Mr. Chairman.

Talk about bad faith.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I understand: the Ukrainians can manage it; Italians cannot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

It's been noted.

I go on to Mr. Pomerleau, please, or Madame Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, Minister you...