Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

All right, who recommended the three people?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Once again, Mr. Chairman, I don't precisely recall. I think we consulted with a number of different people.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Who did you consult with?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Excuse me, let him answer, please.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, but I want to know.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

He won't get the answer across if you keep interrupting.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

These were individuals whose names came forward from different sources. I will be happy to get back to you if I can find in my notes exactly who recommended the individuals. I think they're all eminent Canadians of Italian origin. In any event, the government needs to ensure that any grants and contributions that are provided through the CHRP fund comply with Treasury Board rules and the terms and conditions. The job of the advisory committee is simply to recommend whether or not they think these are good projects.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I have very little time so I'm going to move on, because I think you just answered by questions. None of the major organizations in my community were approached.

I can tell you I have been a volunteer for 35 years in my community, and I was president of one of the largest organizations. I was the national president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians. I know that community really well, and you did not. In fact, one of them I know is the president of the Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel riding for the Conservative Party. I suspect that was the consultation you had. That shows to me, Minister, that you have bypassed the major organizations in the community completely, therefore not consulting with any of them. The National Congress of Italian Canadians, the ones who were here yesterday, is an umbrella organization. And the organization of one of your three appointees is in fact a member of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, and you chose not to consult them or any of the others. And I can name all of them for you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Very short, please, to the question.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I actually want to make a comment, because as a member of that community I find this highly offensive.

I have lived through this kind of contemptuous treatment of my community for decades. I have lived with it, and it has come from all parties. So don't smirk at me on that side. The Conservatives, the NDP, the Liberals--I am quite ready to say all of them have done it at different times.

This is the ultimate offence: no apology, you cannot manage your own funds, and no consultation with the major organizations, telling them that they cannot handle it. Minister, I think you owe us an apology not only for what happened during the war, but what's happening right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Your time is up. That was a statement, I think.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Yes, I know. I wanted it put on the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Madame Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee, Minister. It is a pleasure to have you join us. Judging from your presentation, I get the impression that you are not opposed to the idea of issuing an apology to the Italian community. Am I wrong? You stated that there is no denying that for some Italian Canadians, living in this country has not always been easy.

Do you in fact believe that Italian Canadians deserve an apology?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes, and that is why former Prime Minister Mulroney issued a formal, unqualified apology on behalf of the government and the people of Canada.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So then, you agree that they deserve an apology. An apology was in fact issued, but in a less formal setting than Parliament. Suppose we set aside the bill and try to find some common ground.

Why can't thePrime Ministerissue another apology, but this time in the House? That would satisfy the demands of the Italian community. If we were to do only that, it would be a small step for our Prime Minister, but a major step forward for the Italian community.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The Government of Canada has already apologized, through the actions and words of the former Prime Minister. I don't think Canadians would go along with the government apologizing twice for the same incidents.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

There is no question that issuing an apology in the House of Commons is an important step. There is a reason for your opposition. I think that since the government has already apologized outside the House, the average citizen would have no problem with the government issuing another apology in the House. Usually, we don't see the opposite occurring, that is the statements made in the House repeated outside this forum. What we're asking here is that the government apologize again in the House. That would be a very symbolic gesture. Parliament is an important institution in the eyes of Italian Canadians. Perhaps they would be happy with an apology.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

First of all, we are here to debate the bill. It does not call for the Prime Minister to issue another apology in the House. The bill aims to recognize the injustice done to Italian Canadians.

Moreover, there is no rule that says apologies must always be extended in the House. Two years ago, Prime Minister Harper issued a formal apology for the way in which Maher Arar was treated. That apology was not made in the House of Commons. Other governments have acted in a similar manner.

It's important to point out that the Prime Minister of Canada has already apologized on behalf of the people and Government of Canada. I can understand that some may be frustrated with the fact that the apology was not made by a Liberal prime minister. I'm sorry for Ms. Minna that a Liberal prime minister refused to take this step before Mr. Mulroney did, but that's what happened. In my opinion, it's important to learn from our past mistakes, as Mr. Mulroney did.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

For that reason, I'm suggesting we set aside the bill and agree to do what the Italian community is asking of us. I have to admit that it was rather impressive to see such a large contingent of Italian Canadian men last Tuesday. I think all three of your advisers, Mr. Kenney, are members of this community.

Prominent members of the Italian-Canadian community came here to ask for an apology to be issued in the House. That was their initial demand. They even told us that once this apology was extended, there would be no further grievances or demands from the Italian community.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

In my opinion, a government should not have to apologize several times for the same mistakes. There are over 1.4 million Canadians of Italian descent. To be honest, 34,000 Canadians were affected by the internment process. All Canadians of Italian descent were affected, not just the organization of a so-called leader. As I see it, our actions are indicative of a much more democratic approach. Under our program, leaders of these organizations can apply for funding for commemorative and educational activities. All Canadians of Italian descent who are interested in these kinds of activities can apply for funding...

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but as you know, I am on the clock and...

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Your time is up, Madame Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I just want to finish my sentence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We've gone over time.

Mr. Angus.