Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for coming to our committee.

I've been trying to work through this bill, and at our last session we had the leaders of many of the large Italian organizations. My colleague Mr. Calandra certainly seemed very hostile to them, and I was trying to understand what was behind that.

Would you agree with the statement that the efforts for redress are elite-initiated and influenced by the political ambitions of minority Canadians in national politics?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I would say that politics plays a role in this. I wouldn't put those words in my mouth, but I would say that clearly politics plays a role in this. There's community politics, partisan politics, there's a lot of politics around this.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So there's politics. Would you agree with the statement that Canada's internment of Italian -Canadian fascists was politically sound and necessary, and that the Canadian government should have made it clear that they were being interned because they were fascists and therefore a security risk, just like German Nazis, communists and jailed witnesses? Would you agree with that?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Again, I wouldn't ascribe those as my views. I would say, as I did at the beginning, that there was an understandable and legitimate preoccupation about national security. There was fascist activity in Canada in those years. But clearly, we all recognize that the government overreacted and there were unjust internments at the time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I ask that because the man that you chose, Dr. Perin, has written these statements and he is now the man you say democratically will be deciding what issues are going to be addressed by the Italian community and which ones are not. You chose a photographer, you chose a fundraiser, and you chose an historian with very clear views on this. He says, “We have watched with concern the campaign of Canadian redress. Its leaders are guided by simplified versions of events, drawing on selective evidence, ignoring contrary views and glossing over the fascist history of the Italian communities.” That's his position.

Why would you put this man in charge of it? Do you agree with him? Do you think that redress is something that is politically inspired?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, I think as much as possible we should take the politics out of redress. That is why--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, why did you choose him? Do you agree with him?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'm answering your last question, which was do I think the politics should be taken out of redress, and I'm saying as much as possible we should take the politics out of redress, and I think one way of doing that is to allow individuals to make their applications so they don't have to go through one organization--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But through one man who is very politically partisan. He has extremely clear views on this.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I don't know what his political views are--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I find that very surprising.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I have no idea what his political views are, and I can tell you that, to the best of my knowledge, I've never met or even spoken with Mr. Perin. His name is recognized--

Mr. Angus, if you want to take.... I understand he's a tenured university professor--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Dr. Perin says these internments have yet to be studied in depth, but this is not to keep ethnic organizations from demanding redress.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The subject of redress raises a central political question, whether a current government or generation should apologize. Then he goes on, because my colleagues over there keep referring to Mr. Mulroney's apology.... He says that Prime Minister Mulroney's apology has confirmed the validity of a laundered version of history.

You chose this man. You chose him because you knew he would be the one to decide which stories of history were told and which ones were not. So why don't you just say it clearly: you don't like the fact that you think these Italian organizations are inspired by political operatives, perhaps for the Liberal Party? You don't like the issue of redress, and you're not going to issue an apology. That's why you chose him. Just say it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus, please let the minister answer this time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

He doesn't need any help.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, first, I think Mr. Angus is quoting from published articles of a tenured academic. If you'd like to get into an academic debate with the gentleman--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm reading from the man you chose, because your colleagues said, “What's there to apologize for?” That was the position of the Conservative Party the other day. Do you agree with that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus, would you let the minister answer, please?

Yes, Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, Mr. Angus has insinuated something that was never said at this committee. We never once claimed on this side that there was no apology necessary.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Calandra said--and I checked the notes--“What's there to apologize for?” I'm asking, do you agree with that? Because that's what Mr. Perin seems to be of the view, and he's the man you chose.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus, there was a point of order, and I will say that our minister has not been able to answer. I guess the statements have been made. We've heard those statements and we are now moving on to Mr. Del Mastro.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

He asked several questions there that I--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, would you please answer the questions and try to respond?