Evidence of meeting #15 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schreiber.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
The first time I put up bail for Mr. Schreiber was in 1999, I think, and the rest was just to renew that. Listen, in this country, we have presumption of innocence. I should not have to tell you that, because you are a lawyer, a former criminal lawyer. So far, Mr. Schreiber has not been charged with anything in Canada, and he, like all citizens, has the right to be presumed innocent.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Lalonde, I would like to go back to the lobbying you did. What did you lobby John Manley about?
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
The same thing I lobbied Mr. Chrétien about. I was trying to get a public request for proposals.
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I am almost sure of it, but I do not have the— You asked, so I will say “yes”.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
We talked about the fact that Thyssen had a very high-quality product, very high-calibre. Some senior officers in the Department of National Defence had taken a close look at it and had praised it highly. In light of the situation—both GM and Thyssen had a product—it made sense to go ahead the same way we did when we were in government and we issued a request for proposals for F-18s and navy destroyers. In both cases, we issued requests for proposals.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Do you remember if Mr. Manley expressed reservations about meeting an arms dealer like Mr. Schreiber or someone like you, when you were not registered as a lobbyist? Did he ask you about that?
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
At the time, I was with Jürgen Massmann, who headed up Thyssen BHI, and who was on the board of directors of Thyssen's parent company. He knew what he was talking about when it came to technical things a lot better than I did.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
So now you remember that there was a meeting. You even remember who was there.
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. Mr. Massmann was with me for nearly all of those meetings. If I went to a meeting, he was there. I already said that I had talked to people in the departments I mentioned.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We do not have much time, Mr. Lalonde.
Earlier, you said that all you did was post $100,000 in bail when you signed the agreement. However, in the eyes of the law, that is the same as paying $100,000, should the need arise.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I understand what you are saying, but in the eyes of the law, it is the same.
I have a question for you. Have you ever had to post bail for anyone other than Karlheinz Schreiber?
4:15 p.m.
As an Individual
No, but I can tell you that I would have done the same for any one of my friends or clients in the same situation. I would do it again today. That is the beauty of being a private citizen. Once you leave politics, you can do whatever you want, as long as you obey the law, fulfill your contractual obligations and are at peace with your conscience.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
That is exactly why we are here today, Mr. Lalonde. You and I have determined that the provisions of the law were not obeyed. We have to recognize—for we are elected representatives too—that once a person leaves politics and becomes a private citizen again, that person does have a slight advantage over other private citizens when he can call up a former cabinet colleague who has become Prime Minister. Do we agree on that?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Merci, Mr. Lalonde.
That brings us to the end of the questioning. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you kindly for coming. You have made a couple of undertakings to provide information to the committee. We will remind you of those in writing so there is no misunderstanding. You are excused, sir. Thank you kindly.
Colleagues, I want to move immediately to Mr. Alford. I'm not going to take a break at this time. We have three witnesses today and we just have to keep moving. Our next witness is appearing by video conference, Mr. Greg Alford.
Mr. Alford, can you hear me?
