Evidence of meeting #8 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I understood your answer to Madame Lavallée, but the way I read this answer here last week, it sounded like a specific individual. I'm surprised to hear you telling us you have no idea. The way you said it to this committee last week, it sounded like you knew the name of the individual.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
What troubled me is that I thought I may have written it down, but by then I was completely irritated by the whole thing, and why would I? I did not want to get involved in this, and this is why I asked Moores. Normally, I write down things, and then I would know, but this time I don't know.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
My colleague from Winnipeg just asked you before if you were involved in giving money directly or indirectly, but I'd like to ask you the question ever so slightly differently. To your knowledge, has anyone benefited directly or indirectly from the sums that you transferred to GCI? Can you tell us if you know, to the best of your knowledge, even if you're not the one who transferred them directly, has anyone benefited from those amounts other than Mr. Mulroney?
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Okay.
Under the conflict of interest and post-employment code for public office holders of 1985, ministers, parliamentary secretaries, and senior public office holders were prohibited from accepting outside employment from anyone with an ongoing matter before the government for a period of two years after they left office. Was this ever discussed between you and Mr. Mulroney?
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Mr. Mulroney, therefore, when you offered him $300,000--or, as you indicated initially, $500,000--to work with you on the Bear Head project in particular, never made any indication to you that there might be a problem with the existing conflict rules?
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
What was the reason, to the best of your knowledge, for wanting to make those transfers in cash in various cities around the world--at the Pierre Hotel, Montreal Mirabel, and the one in Switzerland? What was his motivation? Did he communicate it to you?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
No, and to be fair, it was not discussed. I brought the cash the first time. I brought it the other times.
And by the way, I found out in the meantime that all the meetings took place not by chance. All of them were arranged by Fred Doucet--not only at Harrington Lake but also at the Queen Elizabeth and the meeting in New York.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I'd like to get back to an issue that you and I have had a chance to touch on before, and to get through it as cleanly as possible.
You've already explained to us that the $500,000 offer--which turned out to be $300,000, in three separate $100,000 cash installments--to Mr. Mulroney was for future consideration for work on the Bear Head project.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
What's unclear to me still is how, given your frustration over the fact that, as you said in our very first meeting here, he did nothing.... I'm still having trouble understanding logically, just as a simple matter of common sense, how someone who feels that frustration at someone doing nothing arranges.... A mistake is something you do once. It's not something you keep doing over and over again. Mr. Mulroney's main line of defence is, oh, darn, what a terrible mistake I made; I took $300,000 in three separate cash payments.
A mistake is something you do once, not something you keep repeating. So why did you keep giving him money, even if you felt frustration that he hadn't delivered on your deal?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, by that time I didn't know that. It was always the bad Liberals, with Mr. Fowler and Tellier and others--you will find this pretty soon, when we come to Bear Head--who were responsible for this. He tried always to do his best. I found out much later that he cancelled the project.
If you look at me--we both are not that young--then you will believe that I would have given him not one nickel if I had known by that day that he could quietly kill the project and make us look like crooks to Thyssen. Forget it.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
The chairman has just indicated that our time is running out.
Could you just repeat slowly for us the names of the other Liberals who were involved? You've already talked about Marc Lalonde. There was an interesting article in the Halifax Chronicle Herald last week about his lobbying and his failure to register as a lobbyist.
You mentioned Mr. Tellier. Was that Paul Tellier?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
No, he was in office at the privy council at that time.