Foreign Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2006

[Robert Miller]

We'll table it with the committee.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's exactly what we're looking for.

[Robert Miller]

We will table it with the committee.

It was an unsuccessful intervention.

I'm going to ask Joseph to say what he was told about the circumstances of that during one of the missions.

[Joseph Kira]

When you say “the first two times,” do you mean the first, post-Duvalier, and then, post-Aristide, after he returned ten years ago?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Yes.

[Joseph Kira]

I can't speak too much about the post-Duvalier one, because it was very confusing. There were maybe two or three coups d'état in less than two or three years, so it was mayhem and chaos. So it's really hard to say. There was a lot of animosity among the different factions. I think Canada was there and was supportive, but there was also the reality on the ground, which was literally impossible to manage.

As far as the second one goes, back ten years ago there was indeed an attempt. It was a Canadian who was actually managing this project in Haiti. I think it was a USAID-funded project with Canadian expertise. It was not successful and other interventions were not successful because of the situation with the then Lavalas movement and the fracturing of the movement. There were a lot of political machinations behind the scenes; even though Préval was president, Mr. Aristide was behind the scenes. There was all that dynamic, which made the environment, the conditions, impossible to work with.

The parliamentarians themselves were not focused on institution development, because of the political in-fighting that was taking place, and the parliament was actually dissolved after two years within its legislature. So I think it was the political conditions that did not allow for any kind of work to be undertaken.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

If I were to take those as symptoms, would you then go and say the cause or the root of the failure was a lack of political will to reform? Is that one of the necessary conditions we should be looking for and that's what was missing then?

[Robert Miller]

Absolutely, I would say that.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Is there a sense right now that that will is present in a way that was not the case previously?

[Robert Miller]

I think our sense, Joseph's sense from a meeting he attended with parliamentary members of the delegation, with then president-elect Préval and since, during his visit here, is really that some of the lessons of the first Préval administration have been absorbed, and of the destructiveness of this kind of inter-party rivalry and confrontation between parliament and the government, that it becomes a no-win situation. Everyone is pursuing their own interest, but in a way that is destructive of everyone's interest.

Can that be translated into a somewhat more constructive political environment? Our project is certainly hostage to that as a precondition. It's necessary. Where those conditions don't exist, the kind of capacity-building that our work is focused on is very difficult, maybe impossible. In those circumstances, you may play some role in trying to build dialogue or communication between the factions, but the possibility of institutional capacity-building is very limited.

We're starting fairly hopeful that the environment is more positive and constructive than it was ten years ago and that both the international engagement and the situation within the country are somewhat more stable, that there's somewhat greater consensus, but we'll discover whether that's true or not over the next three years or sooner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

A very quick question, Mr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Kira, you talked about elections. Do you know when the second round of voting will occur? Will it be at the same time as municipal elections? You don't know it yet?

[Joseph Kira]

Indeed. Presently, there are several possible scenarios.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

There is a very large number of political parties. None of those parties has a majority in Parliament, not even the party of Mr. Préval which is the largest. The Haitian people have absolutely no idea of the role played by parliamentarians. It is not really different in Canada.

If the population doesn't see any change inside the country, don't you think that the real opposition will come from the street?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Very quickly, Mr. Kira.

[Joseph Kira]

My answer is yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That was quick.

For a very short question, Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That question has been raised several times. However, the former history professor that I am does not forget that when a country is on the road towards democracy, it always starts with one single party or with 48. Furthermore, each one of them firmly believes that its position will prevail.

When we start on the political scene, we are proud to say that we belong to the winning party. That is true, isn't it? However, we must be able to accept partial victories hoping for other victories next time. Otherwise, you become prisoner of your position. Look at us: we had to force ourselves to vote for the poor Conservative budget! In the final analysis, democracy demands tolerance and the capacity of continuing even if you are not the winner.

I was wondering if it would be possible to work on these issues without insulting these people or imposing on them our supposed know-how. Do you think that it would be possible and useful to prepare sessions on that subject? I am just curious.

[Robert Miller]

I would make the observation that Canada has some recent political history on the merits of political amalgamation that could be shared with Haiti. It is certainly seen as positive by one of the political parties.

Yes, a number of institutions do work on political party development, and that's one of the things that's invariably stressed: if you don't move beyond the point of having 48 tiny parties, you will contribute to the continued domination by the executive of the legislature. That's the effect.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Exactly.

[Robert Miller]

One of two parties dominate everything, and the parliament remains marginal.

I don't know whether Joseph's sense is that the political parties are really engaged in a process of finding out how they can come together and begin reducing their numbers.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We know that votes can be bought. Corruption should be eliminated.

[Joseph Kira]

I believe that your question is in the same vein as that of Mr. Van Loan. It is really an issue of political will.

Mr. Miller suggested that this Committee be twinned with the Haitian Parliamentary Committee on International Affairs. These people will need help about all kinds of international conventions, protocols and treaties. They don't really know how to go about it.

With your experience you could show them that in a committee comprised of several political parties, it is still possible to work constructively together without always having the knives drawn.

Mr. Van Loan, I have one quick point about political will.

Political will is also about whether the political leadership is interested, for instance, in reforming the way it recruits its staff. If the staff is not serving them well, which is what we've been hearing, then perhaps it has to do with the way they're recruited. The way they're recruited is politically based; therefore, maybe they have to change that. That's a challenge, because it's not part of the administrative practices of the country at this point; it's a challenge, but it's also part of the political will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

I have a question, but Mr. Patry has a comment, so we'll have a very quick comment.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I would like to ask a question to Mr. Kira.

Mr. Miller and yourself have talked about a twinning. Could you tell us if Haitian parliamentarians are interested?