Evidence of meeting #41 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was isil.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Gwozdecky  Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Leslie Norton  Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Andrew P.W. Bennett  Ambassador, Office of Religious Freedom, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Donica Pottie  Director, Conflict Policy and Security Coherence Secretariat, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Good morning, everyone. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have our study of Canada's response to the violence, religious persecution and dislocation caused by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

We'll get started. I think everyone can see the camera here. Today we are being recorded by CTV, so we'll have them for the duration of the meeting.

I want welcome our witnesses today from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. Starting on my left, we have Leslie Norton, who is the director general for international humanitarian assistance. Then we have Mark Gwozdecky, who is the director general of the Middle East and Maghreb. We have Andrew Bennett, who is the ambassador for the Office of Religious Freedom, and we have Donica Pottie, who is the director of the Conflict Policy and Security Coherence Secretariat.

Welcome. It's nice to have you here.

We're going to get started. I believe we just have opening remarks from you, Mr. Gwozdecky. Let's start with your opening remarks and then we'll go around the room over the next hour and a half or so, asking questions and going back and forth between opposition and government.

I'm going to turn the floor over to you, sir. We look forward to your opening statement.

11 a.m.

Mark Gwozdecky Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, honourable members, for the opportunity to appear before you today.

I'm going to start by giving you an overview of the state of affairs in Iraq and Syria, and then speak to the Government of Canada's activities that aim to oppose ISIL, to help the Iraqi people, and to support the Government of Iraq.

The so-called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL, is wreaking havoc in the region, inflicting great hardship upon people who have already suffered from civil war and strife. ISIL has organized, mobilized, and advanced on the basis of adherence to a distorted ideology that aims at eliminating so-called non-believers, who are identified as all those refusing to convert to ISIL's perverted version of Islam.

At its heart, this is a conflict based on religious persecution and fuelled by religious hatred, which has led to a humanitarian catastrophe. It represents the ideology of obscurantism; that is, the deliberate preventing of the facts from becoming known. It is opposed to the fundamental freedoms upon which our society is based, to all aspects of tolerance and pluralism, and even to the very idea of the inherency of human dignity.

To counter the extremist rhetoric in the Middle East, including in Iraq and Syria, we must promote an alternative vision to that supported by the Islamic State and other extremist groups. We must provide an alternative to the fear of oppression, discrimination, marginalization and abuse that are often perpetrated by the governments in power, factors that have allowed extremist ideas to spread.

The only possible long-term solution is political inclusion, better governance and respect for religious freedom and human rights. This political solution must come from the Iraqis and Syrians, but Canada is committed to long-term political and diplomatic efforts in support of that goal.

Although promising progress has been made in Iraq, we know that achieving that goal will take time. That is why Canada is supporting the local forces fighting the Islamic State in Iraq. Canada also remains ready to contribute to the long-term reconciliation and political reform.

The tragic events that took place in Paris earlier this month, involving extremists linked to transnational terrorist organizations based in the Middle East, clearly demonstrate that our efforts are part of a bigger fight.

While we work with our friends and allies to combat the threat that this ideology poses around the world, we must remain committed to the goal of reversing the military gains of the Islamic State, restoring humanitarian aid, protecting fundamental rights and reaffirming Iraq's authority on territories currently under the control of the Islamic State.

To do so, the U.S. has formed a coalition of over 60 countries supporting military action against the Islamic State. This coalition provides military advisers and equipment.

Within the coalition, Canada belongs to a core group that is participating in a combat role through air strikes against ISIL in Iraq. Canada's allies are taking part in these air strikes also. We count among these allies 10 Middle Eastern countries. The Canadian Armed Forces contribution, through Operation Impact, includes fighter, surveillance, and refuelling aircraft for the air operations against ISIL.

Canada's military has also contributed military advisers and planners to assist Iraqi security forces, as well as airlift support for the delivery of military equipment. You will hear more about this later this week, when Ministers Nicholson and Baird will speak to this group. ln support of the role that the Canadian Armed Forces are playing, DFATD and several other departments and agencies are making significant contributions to ensure that those on the front lines have the best chance of defeating ISIL.

Let me reaffirm at this time that the humanitarian crisis we're witnessing is as a result of an ongoing conflict between government forces and a number of armed groups, and most notably ISIL's violent campaign of religious persecution of members of religious minorities as well as of Shia Muslims, and Sunni Muslims who reject ISIL's warped view of Islam. Canada's activities seek to support the Iraqi people in combatting the various manifestations of this violence.

Let me begin on the security side. Through its counterterrorism capacity-building program and the global peace and security fund, the department is providing $10 million in non-lethal security assistance to Kurdish security and defence forces. Our support translates into such vital protective equipment as helmets, body armour, and remotely operated explosive detection vehicles, as well as logistics support, including transport vehicles, binoculars, computers, and GPS units.

To further target ISIL and other extremist groups in the region, the counterterrorism capacity-building program is also implementing a $5-million multi-year regional initiative to stem the flow of foreign fighters and counter violent extremism. Project activities will be aimed at increasing local capabilities to identify and intercept foreign fighters in source, transit, and destination countries.

Canadian diplomats and public safety agencies met with partners in the region to provide the best possible assistance. We are ensuring that Canada's investment complements local initiatives and supports the work of like-minded donors.

Canada is also working with regional partners such as the Hedayah Center in the United Arab Emirates to implement projects aimed at countering extremist propaganda. Extremist rhetoric encourages intolerance and the use of violence, especially among marginalized and dissident young people who may well be influenced and mobilized by such propaganda.

If we want to overcome extremism, we must wage an ideological battle, a battle that denounces extremist propaganda for what it is: perverse calls for religious and historical legitimacy devoid of substance and rooted in intolerance and cowardice. At the same time, the international community must become more engaged in helping those segments of the population by finding a solution to the factors that make them so vulnerable to extremism.

As a result, Canada is contributing to the efforts made to address immediate humanitarian needs, to hold human rights abusers accountable and to support the long-term rebuilding, stabilization and development of the communities affected by the conflicts. These efforts can help incite those vulnerable people to want to live in a democratic Iraq where fundamental rights are protected and respected.

Since the beginning of 2014, Canada has provided $67.4 million in humanitarian assistance for displaced Iraqis. Canada has also provided $400 million to support humanitarian interventions in response to the conflict in Syria, including $9.5 million for Syrian refugees in Iraq.

This assistance, provided with the help of experienced humanitarian partners, helps address the urgent needs of millions of civilians in health, shelter, food, education and protection, including from sexual and gender-based violence.

ISIL's brutality has been particularly felt by women and girls. Reports of sexual violence by ISIL are widespread, and it is increasingly clear that this is part of a deliberate campaign of persecution against religious minority groups. Due to the stigma attached to rape, most incidents go unreported. Even when they are reported, families and communities sometimes blame the victim. Sadly, the impacts of sexual violence often endure far beyond the end of conflict.

In response, Canada is taking concerted action to assist the survivors of sexual violence and other related abuses of human rights by ISIL. On October 6, Minister Baird announced $10 million for measures to respond to sexual violence and other abuses against women and girls. These funds will be spent on two key priorities.

First, Canada is concerned with increasing accountability in the documentation to help hold perpetrators of these crimes to account.

Canada has made a contribution of up to $5 million to Justice Rapid Response, an intergovernmental mechanism for rapidly deploying active duty criminal justice and related professionals from a standby roster. Justice Rapid Response will identify and train first responders on the ground and define outreach activities, including engagement with survivors of sexual violence.

Canada has also made another $5 million available to the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights to help respond to, document, and investigate sexual violence and other related human rights abuses. Canada is focused on preventing, and supporting survivors of, sexual violence and related abuses, and $5 million has been allocated to enhance protection for vulnerable women and children from sexual violence and related human rights abuses.

A DFATD official was on the ground in Iraq this fall to identify initiatives that will help assist survivors of ISIL's crimes of sexual violence. Canada's humanitarian assistance funding is already supporting a number of humanitarian organizations to assist survivors of SGBV through access to psychological support services, medical treatment, awareness sessions, counselling, training, empowerment courses, and clinical care. Displaced people are especially vulnerable to SGBV. That is why Canada is supporting the UN Population Fund, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, the ICRC, and Plan Canada to prevent and respond to sexual violence in Iraq. These organizations are setting up women's centres and providing medical treatment as well as psychosocial counselling and legal assistance to survivors.

In Syria, Canada supports the United Nations Population Fund, in order to meet the needs of women and girls, including survivors of sexual abuse. With that support, 2.3 million girls and women will have access to improved sexual and gender-based violence prevention and response mechanisms, including psychosocial support and medical services.

Canada also denounces the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war. In addition to providing much needed assistance and protection to the refugees in the region, we are leading the way by making sure that the use of sexual violence by the Islamic State, against members of religious minorities in particular, remains a global priority, including for the G7 and the United Nations.

In terms of the global refugee issue, Canada intends to do its part to address the crisis caused by the violence in Iraq and Syria. In addition to providing much needed assistance and protection to the refugees in the region, Canada has accepted 20,000 Iraqi refugees and will accept 3,000 more this year, as well as 5,000 more from Turkey by 2018.

Canada is also committed to settling over 11,000 Syrian refugees under its humanitarian and compassionate program.

In the long term, Canada plans to contribute to stability and development in Iraq. The department is working on setting up a bilateral development program to meet the short-term needs and to support long-term resilience and prosperity in Iraq.

Finally, through Canada's Office of Religious Freedom, we will be working over the medium and long term to promote interfaith dialogue, to encourage understanding and respect between Iraq's religious communities, and to help build a political and social framework that allows all Iraqis to express their faith freely and without fear. To that end, the government has recently announced a new initiative with the Minority Rights Group International, seeking to document human rights violations against vulnerable groups in Iraq. The initiative will focus on religious communities and provide support to human rights defenders working with religious minorities.

Canada's Office of Religious Freedom is also working closely with its partners to identify additional opportunities for collaboration with the religious communities directly affected by the situation in Iraq and Syria.

We are encouraged to see that the new government in Iraq is reaching out to all of Iraq's religious and ethnic communities in order to build a more inclusive country. The marginalization of Iraq's Sunnis was at the basis of ISIL's resurgence in Iraq, so the importance of inclusiveness cannot be overstated.

We're equally pleased to note that Baghdad is taking action to fight corruption within the security forces and government, and to resolve some of its disputes with the Kurdistan regional government.

In closing, let me stress again that Canada deplores ISIL's acts of terrorism against civilian populations, and it is committed to working with partners, including the Iraqi government, to halt these despicable acts and alleviate the suffering of ISIL's victims. All aspects of Canada's multi-faceted approach are important and complementary. Canada is proud to support Iraqis in their efforts to defeat terrorism, and we look forward to working with the Iraqis and our international partners on the stabilization and reconstruction of Iraq.

Thank you. My colleagues and I would now be happy to answer any questions you might have.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much, Mr. Gwozdecky.

Our first round will be seven minutes for questions and answers. I'm going to start with Mr. Dewar.

The floor is yours, sir.

January 27th, 2015 / 11:20 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests today.

I want to start off by acknowledging something that we had asked for after I accompanied Minister Baird, along with my colleague Mr. Garneau, and the assessment we made. We, as the official opposition, asked for support for those who have suffered from sexual violence, but also for the prosecution of others. I'm glad you mentioned that. It wasn't as welcomed when I mentioned it in the House. I was accused of wanting to just send lawyers to deal with ISIL, but I'm glad to hear the government has taken that on. It's very important to gather evidence, because at some point we want to see justice done. So I want to give credit to the government for that project and the $10 million that was announced.

I also want to just touch on the fact that some of the points you just made were around the importance of humanitarian assistance. I also note that you enumerated the amounts that we are investing or have pledged to invest. I think that's important. Certainly, that was our assessment when we put forward what we wanted to see, not just on protection of victims of sexual violence and documentation, but also on ensuring that those who are suffering because of having to flee are going to be well supported. The World Food Programme, the winterization program, and others are very important. We thought that was where we should be putting the emphasis.

I do note that we haven't been able to get the same transparency from the other department. It would be interesting—if you have information on that—to see how much we're actually spending on the military side. I think that's important not only for transparency but also to understand what's the best investment. If you have the information on how much the military mission is forecast to be, or if you have actual numbers for now, they would be most welcome.

I want to ask you about a couple of pledges that have been made. There's one in particular that I'm very concerned about because of what we saw on the ground. That's the pledge for winterization. This is a 2015 pledge. There was UNICEF, the No Lost Generation, for $8 million; the World Food Programme for $10 million; and $9 million for winterization. I don't have to tell you that the winterization is important because of the winter they're suffering from now.

To my understanding, we haven't been able to get the money transferred in those three areas. The pledge is there. I'm just wondering if you can update us on the UNICEF money for child protection, the World Food Programme, and most importantly, or as important, the $9 million we had pledged for 2015, which hasn't yet been realized.

Could you give us an idea when those pledges will actually be transferred?

11:20 a.m.

Leslie Norton Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Just to confirm, the announcement was for $40 million for Iraqis affected by the conflict. Indeed, $10 million was for WFP; $9 million was UNHCR, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. That's correct. The $8 million for UNICEF was a previous announcement, back in October. All of this funding has gone to the organizations.

Regarding the $40 million, because of the fiduciary risk assessment in the current context with some of our NGO partners, we might have two or three payments. All of the grant arrangements and agreements are signed. Most of the money has been transferred. However, because of our fiduciary risk, there might be two or three payments for some of the organizations. But that is not the case for the UNHCR. It is not the case for UNICEF. It is not the case for the WFP.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

So those are all moneys sent, delivered, and engaged. Thank you for that.

On winterization, we've had this issue before, where pledges are made, then winter's come and gone, and sadly, the money hasn't been there. I think that's a challenge we all have to focus on, notwithstanding, obviously, your concern around fiduciary responsibilities.

I wonder if you could just share something with us. April is when the six-month time period will have come in terms of our commitment to the mission. From what I'm hearing today, you're working on a different timetable in terms of our commitments on everything from humanitarian assistance to supporting governance.

What is the timetable you're working on? Is it another year, another six months? Do you see the six-month timetable pertaining just to the military mission? What's the calendar you're working on in terms of our work in Iraq?

As you know, the parliamentary motion was for six months, to be looked at again with regard to whether to renew or not. I'm just wondering if you could share with us the thinking within the department.

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mark Gwozdecky

My colleague Ms. Norton will speak to the humanitarian piece.

To characterize our efforts, I would refer to my statement, in which I said we are engaged in a long-term political and diplomatic engagement with Iraq that includes the kinds of support you heard about in the statement. Because we have a long-term interest in having a stable Iraq in the region, we have a long-term interest, as the Prime Minister has said, in degrading the capabilities of ISIL. To do that, we need to support the Government of Iraq, because ultimately, Iraqis are going to be the only ones capable of dealing with this problem. However, it is in our interests, as we know from recent events in Canada, to take these steps, because the threats that grow in Iraq and Syria can wash up on our shores.

With regard to the various programs, we can speak to the timeframes attached to those, but we have a long-term relationship with Iraq, which we want to grow because we think it is in the interests of Canadians.

Leslie.

11:25 a.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Leslie Norton

As you know, we respond to humanitarian crises based on need. The current UN appeal is for the totality of 2014-15, so our funds will be at work throughout the entire calendar year of 2015.

It looks as though we may be heading towards a protracted crisis in Iraq, and we will evaluate the needs as the next appeal is launched. If the current appeal is increased, it will be analyzed and we will provide recommendations accordingly.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thanks very much.

We'll move over to Mr. Anderson for seven minutes, please.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here with us today.

In early December there was a meeting of the coalition partners in Brussels, from which they issued a joint statement laying out five lines of effort. These were as follows: supporting the military operations, capacity-building, and training; stopping the flow of foreign terrorist fighters; cutting off ISIL or Daesh's access to funding and financing; addressing associated humanitarian relief in crises; and exposing ISIL or Daesh's true nature in terms of their ideology.

Actually, I would like to work from the bottom up on that one.

Ambassador Bennett, in terms of the Office of Religious Freedom, what are you doing? We talked a little bit about this, but how are we approaching the issue of revealing the ideological extremism of these folks?

I guess we've all seen some recent polling that maybe concerns us because it shows that some of these ISIL-held beliefs seem to be held by a section of the general population. It seems that some of the justice penalties are applied by some of the local regimes as well.

I am just wondering. Are we dealing with this as a theological issue? Are we dealing with some higher calling such as the call to democracy and pluralism? What is our approach in dealing with this?

11:30 a.m.

Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett Ambassador, Office of Religious Freedom, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you can appreciate, it's a multi-faceted response, like a lot of our efforts. On the one hand, we're trying to encourage those countries in the region that have an interest, as we do, in the broader security of the region and stopping ISIL in its advance to speak out more directly on these questions about how ISIL takes Islam and distorts it to advance their extremist goals and extremist ideology. We've been engaging the other countries in the region, especially those that we know have a more balanced approach—I don't want to say moderate, but a more balanced approach—to interpretation of Islam. Jordan is a key ally for us in this regard.

I hope to be travelling to Jordan in early February. I'll be meeting with interlocutors there, both religious leaders and government, to talk about how we seek to engender a particular understanding of Islam that is open to pluralism, that advances interconfessional dialogue. Certainly with our current project we're launching with Minority Rights Group, that's part of the goal—to ensure that interconfessional dialogue takes place in Iraq, but also in countries of what I would call proximate migration, where we've had mainly Christians, a certain number of Yazidis, and some Shia and Sunni Muslims. These are countries such as Jordan and Lebanon. We're looking at working with a variety of different partners to engage those communities in those countries to ensure there can be that dialogue between Christians, between Christians and Muslims in particular.

The Office of Religious Freedom sponsored a recent round table in Toronto. It was hosted by Minister Paradis and Minister Alexander. It brought together religious leaders from the different apostolic churches, the Jewish community, the Muslim community, the Yazidi community. One of the major concerns expressed by all the people there was that this region not be emptied of minority faith groups. Rabbi Frydman-Kohl from Beth Tzedec in Toronto said the Middle East without Christians cannot be the Middle East, and likewise with the Yazidis and other minorities.

We're continuing to engage domestically here with religious leaders to get a better understanding of the possible approaches we can take to ensure these communities are able to remain in the region. Our colleagues at CIC are working on refugee resettlement programs for those who feel the need to leave. Certainly Minister Alexander made an announcement just a week and a half ago or two weeks ago about that.

It's a two-pronged engagement, Mr. Anderson, both in the region with allies and with countries where we're hoping to see a stronger message about condemning ISIL and their activities, and then also here in Canada.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

From the beginning of our hearings we've clearly heard from communities that they want to be in that area when this is done, if they possibly can. Obviously there's an immigration issue, but as with all of us we like to spend our time in the area we call our home.

Working my way up the list, I will probably leave the humanitarian relief and access questions to Ms. Brown who is very familiar with them, but can you talk a little about what we've been doing to try to cut off access to financing? We've talked about that a little earlier at committee as well. I'm just wondering if any of you have any information on what we're doing to try to deal with that aspect of their operations.

11:30 a.m.

Donica Pottie Director, Conflict Policy and Security Coherence Secretariat, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

We're not able to speak with a huge amount of detail on that. I can confirm that we have, of course, listed ISIL as a terrorist group under our Criminal Code, and therefore, there's an additional duty on Canadian financial institutions of due diligence and disclosure to law enforcement. We're also working through the OECD's Financial Action Task Force and something called the Manama Meeting on Combating the Financing of Terrorism to work with partners to try to stem the flow of financial resources to ISIL. If people around the table would like more details, we could provide those in writing.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Have we been able to deal with the sale of petroleum products and those kinds of things? That was an early source of income for the organization.

11:35 a.m.

Director, Conflict Policy and Security Coherence Secretariat, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Donica Pottie

Mr. Chair, with apologies, I don't have any great detail or background in this area, but we can certainly get that information to members, if it's desired.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I have a couple of questions about Syria.

The situation there allows some of these folks to be moving back and forth. I'm just wondering, do we see a short- or medium-term solution to the Syrian issue in order to deal with the issue in Iraq?

The second part of that is, we've talked a lot about capacity-building within Iraq and the military forces there. I'm just wondering how that is coming along. We've been meeting probably for four months or whatever, and when we started that was obviously a large issue. Have we been able to make an impact in terms of creating a stronger fighting force there than they've had in the past?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

If I could just have a quick response because we're pretty much out of time.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Actually, the second question is of more interest to me than the first one.

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mark Gwozdecky

The second question is one that, with all due respect, I'd like to allow ministers to speak to on Thursday. It's at that meeting that the focus will be on the military dimension. Today we're prepared to speak to all the non-military aspects of our activities.

In terms of Syria, it's perhaps getting less visibility in the media, but nonetheless actions are taking place. There's constant discussion through intermediaries with the Syrian regime and with others. In fact, I believe today there is a meeting taking place in Moscow convened by the Russians. A number of members of the Syrian regime and some representatives from the opposition are meeting. It's not an official government-to-government style peace event, but we would call it more like a track 1.5 event. It is taking place and it is one of the few examples of both sides sitting around the same table. I wouldn't predict a short-term resolution, but certainly there is diplomacy at work.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you.

Mr. Scarpaleggia, welcome to the committee. Over to you, sir, for seven minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd just like to continue on that issue that Mr. Anderson raised, or that you provided comments on, in regard to this meeting with representatives of the Syrian regime and members of opposition groups in Syria. You called it a track 1.5. I'm not familiar with what that means. I'm not a permanent member of the committee, so perhaps you could elaborate on that.

What kinds of things would be discussed at a meeting like that, for those who are uninitiated in that kind of on-the-ground diplomacy, if you want to call it that?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mark Gwozdecky

I'd like to be able to give you a lot of detail, but this is a meeting that the Russians are not offering a lot of information on.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I understand.

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mark Gwozdecky

They're trying to maintain a lot of discretion around the event, so I don't have a lot to speak to you about.

A track 1.5 would be different than the traditional government-to-government style negotiation where you have official government representatives from a number of states around the table. In the case of this meeting, my understanding is that the official Syrian opposition are not represented, so to speak, at the table, but representatives from a variety of opposition groups are. So they're there not in their so-called official capacity, but more in their personal capacities. That's why it's something different than the traditional government-to-government style—