Government Operations Committee on May 16th, 2006

[Gwyn Morgan]

No, I do not. But I must respond, Madam Chair, in the context of what I said earlier, which is that these are a couple of sentences taken out of context of the whole speech. I will add a few things from exactly the same speech, and this won't take me very long.

Here I quote from the speech:

Right at the outset, let me state my bias. I am in favour of a strong immigration program. As baby boomers like me prepare to sail off into retirement, our country needs more productive, competent workers. ...

[Let's] cut the red tape and expedite the processing of these future contributors to our society. Color, race, religion should continue to be irrelevant in the selection process.

...when we get them here? Here again there are some very obvious symptoms that tell us we are failing to take advantage of the potential of our immigrants. How many times have you been in a taxi driven by an engineer or seen a well qualified medical specialist acting as an orderly in a hospital? These are good, decent people who came to Canada for a better life. For a combination of reasons--partly the failure of our professional associations and partly because of failure by governments to provide the early stage support, and training required both to obtain employment and to fit into their new lives [in our country].

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, I read that. What you're saying here is that some immigrants will not develop... That's a value judgment. If that is what you meant to say, you don't believe in rehabilitation.

In this case you're targeting one group, and towards the end of your speech, you virulently attack the Bloc Québécois, thereby not recognizing the legitimacy of Quebeckers' democratic choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Ms. Thibault. Your time is up. Mr. Moore, you now have the floor.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

In your opening statement you discussed a number of things with regard to the position, with regard to the commission itself, and the makeup of the other members of the commission. I think it should be noted that the commission, as you said, is well balanced regionally. I suspect if we had Mr. McLaren here we would have people dissecting past speeches, looking for internal conspiracies and things we may agree or disagree with. But the reality is, the position you have is in fact not a political one; it's one of true public service, for a dollar a year.

As you know, of course, if you've read the papers over the weekend, one member of this committee has already decided that you're not qualified for this position, even though she has not yet in fact ever met you. So I was wondering if you would just take a minute—because you kind of glossed over it in the short time you had at the beginning—to tell us frankly a little bit about yourself as an individual. We will be voting in about an hour and a half's time on a motion that says you're not qualified for this post. I was wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about your professional past, where you were born, where you went to school, where you've travelled, and so on.

[Gwyn Morgan]

Thank you, honourable member.

Madam Chair, I've never been very good at, as some people call it, blowing my own horn, so I'll have to do my best here.

I was born on a farm in Alberta with what you might call a very low start in terms of economic position, but, I believe, a high start in terms of ethical standards that I was taught by my parents. Through my whole life I have believed in principles, and I have loved my country.

I took engineering and ended up in the oil and gas industry. I was able to join a company in 1975 that was Canadian headquartered. That was in fact very important to me, and the reason that I left a non-Canadian-headquartered company was to do so.

One of my greatest pleasures, having built that company to the point of being one of the largest energy companies in the country and also internationally, was to combine it with another very large company to create EnCana in the year 2002.

My wife and I actually came up with the name EnCana to represent energy Canada, to show our pride in this country. One of the reasons I brought that company together and created EnCana was that we were losing head offices in this country, and I believed very strongly that Canadian head offices are very important to the country.

I'm very humbled to say that I was recognized by 250 CEOs across the country as the most respected chief executive in the country last year, and also by another group as chief executive of the year.

All of these things are far beyond what I could ever have dreamed of in pursuing my career, and now that I have stepped down, I'm willing to put whatever I can and whatever abilities and effort and enthusiasm I have into this role.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Obviously when the Prime Minister calls, people often feel compelled to enter public life. But at what point was it that you decided you wanted to contribute to public life rather than continue on in the corporate world? What draws you to this service?

[Gwyn Morgan]

I'm not sure, actually, but I think there came a time in my life when, in the case of the company and the corporate world, I'd done more than I had ever expected to and it was time to move on and pass the torch to the next generation, if you like.

I've always had a great interest in policy and government and have worked, in fact, with both Liberal and Conservative governments--more Liberal governments in recent times--on things like policy and have done my best in that regard.

The way the Prime Minister presented it to me was that the Public Appointments Commission isn't about the Conservative government; the Public Appointments Commission is about creating a new way of making patronage appointments, if you like, or maybe about de-patronizing appointments, which is the way I put it. It's something that, if we do it right, if we set it up so that it has the support of everyone, not only in the House but in the country, it can make a real difference for the long-term future, and that's why I accepted the Prime Minister's nomination.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You have two and a half minutes.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Volpe mentioned Glen Murray, the former mayor of Winnipeg, who was appointed and then scrutinized very heavily and perhaps in an overly partisan way at a committee. One may make that argument.

But the truth is that the creation of this commission, or frankly, the appointment of you and this very regionally balanced and very politically balanced commission to examine the process--not the actual individual appointees, but the process--to ensure that there is a fair approach to this is in fact, in my judgment, and I sit on the Bill C-2 legislative committee, an effort by this government to frankly rejuvenate the appointments process, not necessarily the individuals, to ensure that there is a fair and balanced arm's-length process and that the process itself is being scrutinized at arm's-length, so that those who step forward and are being considered for very important appointments aren't tainted by the partisanship associated with making important appointments to public offices.

I think that's essentially what's crucial here. Is that how you view the importance of this new policy?

[Gwyn Morgan]

Madam Chair, it is how I view it, and I was very keen--and I made this known to the Prime Minister--on having commission members selected who represented different political backgrounds, different ethnic backgrounds, and different genders of course. We have one yet to come, and I think the Prime Minister will do a good job on that too.

I believe that it's all about the process, and that what we need to do as commissioners is to remove ourselves from whatever backgrounds we may have had, but use the skills that we've learned and the experience we've built in our lives towards making this work.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Ms. Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Morgan, for coming before the committee.

It's very good to hear your comments, and you have probably read some of my comments in the press. I suppose I've been your loudest critic since I heard about your appointment. I have to be clear with you that I have some real concerns about your appointment. Given what I've read about your views on some issues, we may not be the best of friends at the end of this or agree on much. That said, this is a respectful forum, and I appreciate your ability to come here and be questioned, as we're doing.

Of course, this is not about the others who are being appointed to the proposed commission; this is about you and your qualifications. In a speech you gave recently in a Fraser Institute forum, you attacked my party, social programs, unions, low-wage workers—a number of things I believe in—and I'm here to represent my constituents and beliefs on these issues.

I want to ask you questions about three different areas: first, the comments that I found deeply offensive in this speech regarding Jamaican immigrants in Toronto and their propensity for violence; second, the fact that you, your wife, and your business interests are major financial contributors to the Conservative Party and its previous incarnations; and third, your qualifications for the job.

In a speech you made at a Fraser Institute forum, you talked about believing in a strong immigration policy, and you've reiterated that here. You even end the section of your speech, as you've read, indicating you think that colour, race, and religion should be irrelevant in the selection process. You have talked here about meritocracy. In the speech, however, you also seem to say that race and country of origin are in fact very relevant when it comes to determining how violent a person is. You said, and I quote: “The social side is all too evident with the runaway violence driven mainly by Jamaican immigrants in Toronto, or the all too frequent violence between Asian and other ethnic gangs right here in Calgary.”

On what basis do you make the claim that Jamaican immigrants are the driving force behind violence in Toronto?

[Gwyn Morgan]

Thank you for the question, member Nash.

First of all, I would say that if I had to rewrite the words of that specific section of the speech—and reading those words on their own without the rest of the context—I would gladly rewrite them in a way that reflects my own beliefs more clearly.

Let me tell you what they really are. When it comes to Jamaicans, my wife and I spend a great deal of time in the Caribbean, at least as much as we can. Hopefully we'll have time to spend a little more now. Basically we love the Caribbean people. We attend their churches; in fact, in January we were at an all-black church. And these are some of the most wonderful people in the world.

But do you know what? They are also very concerned about the Caribbean drug trade. They're concerned about the same kinds of issues that people in Canada or in Toronto are concerned with. We heard that loud and clear from them.

Member Volpe, we can talk about the Sicilian Mafia, which used to be what we talked about when we talked about organized crime. We don't seem to talk about that anymore because there's Russian organized crime, Chinese, and others.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

They are pretty good and well organized.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Madam Chair, can we have order?

[Gwyn Morgan]

The point I'm making is that it's about behaviour, not race. When we talked about the Sicilians, we weren't talking about being against Italian immigrants. In fact, how can you not love Italians? My wife and I love the Caribbeans.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Let me be a little more precise then. What do you think are other contributing factors that might lead to crimes in a city like Toronto? You've talked about Jamaicans and about drugs. What else do you think might lead to crime in my city?

[Gwyn Morgan]

I really believe strongly--I guess I tried to say this in my speech, and I regret not saying it as well as I could have--that we have to do a better job of screening immigrants who have violent tendencies. I don't know how you do that, but if someone has a police record, for example, in another country, that should be really clearly brought forward. Sometimes it's missed.

When people come to our country and commit crimes against Canadians, the process of getting them out of the country should be more expeditious. Sometimes it takes ten years and goes on and on.

Those are the kinds of things I'm talking about.

The last thing I want to say is that Jamaicans, Caribbeans, or any other people from any other part of the world, are the wrong people to have here. What I'm really talking about is being honest and straightforward about what's really happening. The Caribbean drug trade and gangs in our cities are happening, and we need to talk about them.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you for that.

Let me just ask you then, given the comments you did make, do you think that an immigrant to Canada from Jamaica is more likely to be violent than an immigrant, say, from Britain?

[Gwyn Morgan]

I would say not. But, Madam Chair, I'm not going to be making any decisions about immigration or anything else in this position. I am going to be setting up a process, and that's what it's all about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You have 30 seconds.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I don't feel I've really gotten the answer here, but I will just say that you, your wife, and your business interests have contributed large sums of money to the Conservative Party of Canada in its previous incarnations, correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madam Nash, political affiliation doesn't play any role in this. It is well known, and unfortunately you're out of time. But if you can rephrase your question in some other way if you get another turn, feel free.