Government Operations Committee on May 16th, 2006

[Gwyn Morgan]

Madam Chair, many Canadians are either members of political parties or have contributed to political parties or have been part of the political process or have even been politicians themselves. None of those Canadians should be excluded from public appointment. The important thing, I believe, is that the process of appointing those Canadians consider several, or in many cases many, potential candidates; that their record, their experience for the job, be carefully considered; and that there be a really meritocracy-based analysis of who is the best person for the job.

What the commission will do.... Basically, we'll not even, as I said, know the names of people who are put forward. But after it's all done, after an appointment is coming forward for recommendation to Governor in Council and the Prime Minister actually accepts it, we'll be doing a review to ensure that the process we've set up and the guidelines we've put up actually led to considering multiple candidates and doing their very best to select the best one, rather than some sort of political decision at the last minute around a candidate who may be well connected.

This isn't going to be easy. I believe we have some great challenges to get this all working the way it should. But I think there are ways of improving the system, and we're going to work very hard on that.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I will now go to Mr. Volpe.

This round is five minutes for questions and answers, so it's even shorter.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Morgan, as I hear you explain the job description you've been given by the Prime Minister, who appointed you outside of this process, you are going to examine all the potential candidates for any appointment, judge them on meritocracy, and submit the list to the Prime Minister for his political consideration. Then you are going to re-examine the decision he makes on the basis of the criteria that you've just laid out for this committee. Is that what you think you're going to be doing?

[Gwyn Morgan]

Let me explain it better, because I obviously haven't quite hit the mark.

As I said in my opening remarks, the committee will not make any appointments. The committee will not even see the names of potential appointees until after they are appointed.

The process that exists today, as you said earlier, the process of the potential appointee coming up through the responsible minister and then being recommended ultimately for Governor in Council appointment, will continue, but there are a few things that will impact on that on behalf of the commission.

First of all, the process of selecting names will be changed, because there will be a code of conduct that's significantly different from today.

I can't prejudge all the commissioners. When we get together, our first job will be to put this code of conduct and these guidelines in place, but I would expect that we will ensconce in the guidelines the principle of multiple candidates, advertising, transparency, and, as much as possible, selection of the very best names to--

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So you're not going to weigh in on the thinking that the Prime Minister engages in either before or after he's made his announcement.

[Gwyn Morgan]

Or the responsible minister.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You'll forgive anybody else who's been here and understands something about smoke and mirrors if they get confused about just exactly what it is you're going to do that's different from today.

Today, for all of the appointments that I enumerated beforehand, there is a very broad consultation process that's followed by an examination of qualifications, examination of security and criminal investigation, and then another process, called a peer review process, that's arm's-length from any minister, before anything gets presented up to the minister, and indeed before it goes up to the Prime Minister. So why is it that I would have to have more confidence in someone who has—and I'm going to give you an opportunity to correct your record—these kinds of views that impact on potential meritocracy?

For example, “It has been demonstrated time and again that private sector unionization eventually leads to an uncompetitive business”, thereby, I guess eliminating anybody who's in that environment from having merit; or the issue of “teamwork, honesty, innovation, flexibility and meritocracy-based financial rewards...unfortunately...are found [absent]”--that's my word--“in unionized organizations.”

Or even further, “The curse of the Maritimes is perpetual equalization combined with an unemployment insurance system that acts as an unemployment assurance system.”

How would any people who come from a union system or Atlantic Canada pass your test of meritocracy?

[Gwyn Morgan]

First of all, I must again repeat that I will not be making any appointments or see the name of any appointees, and neither will any of the other commissioners. We're all about process and governance; that's what we bring to the table, and that's my expertise.

With regard to my own personal views that I expressed there, your own party, I must say and remind you, put forward at an earlier point a plan to change the unemployment insurance system that would put more incentive in it, and that would include the Maritimes and other parts of this country, and that was not done.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for acknowledging that we put the plan forward.

[Gwyn Morgan]

So I think you were recognizing that.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Let me go on a little bit further here, Mr. Morgan, because I think colleagues opposite wanted us to get a better sense of who you are.

You have said some fairly inflammatory things, and my colleague Mr. Alghabra asked you if you wanted to apologize. I don't want to put you in that position. I just wondered whether you'd select different words to reflect your true approach to this, because, Mr. Morgan, this is a country that's in constant change and evolution, and if you really do adhere to these words: that “most immigrants who abuse our society have come in as refugee claimants” and “This...means they are more likely to have”--

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Your time is up, Mr. Volpe, unfortunately.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Are you familiar with the refugee determination system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Volpe, it is now Madame St-Hilaire's turn.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This morning, you missed a great opportunity not so much to apologize, but rather to clarify your views. It would have been important to do so because it is possible that you may be given this important position.

Earlier on, you told my colleague that you were not racist. With all due respect, Mr. Morgan, I would say that the comments you've made were racist. The fact that a person travels abroad does not mean he isn't racist. What is even more shocking to me is that you state that you were quoted out of context and yet this morning you have been unable to really explain why you made these comments about immigrants. And as a parliamentarian, I am even more shocked by the comments you have made regarding sovereignists and the Bloc Québécois.

I don't know what exactly your opinion is on the sovereignist movement. In 1995, you were part of the Canadian Unity Council. I would like to hear your comments on that and to give you another opportunity to clarify your remarks regarding Quebeckers, if not to apologize.

[Gwyn Morgan]

Madam Chair, I must first of all say that I had resigned from the Canadian Unity Council well before the last election. I won't give my reasons for that, but I did resign.

I make no apologies for being a strong advocate of the unity of Canada and I will always express those views. Having said that, I think it's very important that we recognize that when the people of Quebec send other members, when they send non-unity members to this Parliament, we recognize and respect their views. So we can agree to disagree on lots of things. We have other members on the commission who will disagree with me, and we have all kinds of different views representative of the commission, and they will all be together making decisions together.

One thing I must again say is that none of my views, none of the things I may have said in the past about politics or government policy or immigration or anything else will have anything to do with the work of the commission. The work of the commission will be specifically related to putting together a code of conduct and process, and reviewing that code of conduct annually through an audit process, and tabling in the House how well the government has followed the process of the commission they set up.

It seems to me, if I were a member in the opposition, I would probably be looking forward to that report, because it's certainly going to be interesting to see how well they perform.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Morgan, you said earlier on that no Canadian would be excluded. Do you think that a sovereignist or a person who was once a member of the Bloc Québécois could be appointed to this type of position? Do you think that is not a good idea?

[Gwyn Morgan]

Excuse me, Madam Chair. I don't believe I ever said that. I can't imagine why I would have.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

You're not sure?

[Gwyn Morgan]

The fact is that I will have nothing to do with who has access to positions. I keep saying it over and over again. What I bring to the table is a distinguished record, I believe, of business experience and governance, and ethical values that have been well known across the country. Who is chosen for positions we'll have nothing to do with. I don't see any reason why the full mosaic of Quebec shouldn't be considered, and their views, for appointments, just as the full mosaic of all other Canadians should be considered for appointments.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I realize your French is not yet perfect, but as you may hold this position, do you think that it would be good to have a bit of a francophone touch within your organization? You did mention that a French-Canadian woman had been appointed, who may be a Quebecker. Will there be a specific focus on that? You must be aware of the fact that your Canada is bilingual as well.

[Gwyn Morgan]

Thank you for the question.

The work of the commission, because we will not be selecting appointees or even be consulted about appointees, is all about putting together a code of conduct in governance, and then making sure it is followed, to the best of our abilities. So I don't think we'll have any problem communicating among the commission members and among the staff of the commission, with my inadequate high school French that I haven't had the opportunity to use very much, being raised in the west.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Merci.

Mr. Kenney, go ahead, please.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thanks very much, Madam Chair. Congratulations to you, as well, on your election.

Mr. Morgan, it's good to see you here in Ottawa. Of course, we're both from Calgary, so I have known you for a long time, mainly by reputation, and not very closely personally. But I can say to the committee that I think that those who know him most closely know him best. In Calgary, Mr. Morgan has, I think, a sterling reputation. I've never heard, in any quarter of opinion, anything but praise directed at Mr. Morgan and his support for many community endeavours and charitable endeavours. And I think the fact that you're willing to take this on and sit through this process here for a dollar a day is evidence of public spirit.

One thing perhaps we could reflect on here is how difficult it is to attract people with your kind of background--you have been chosen by your peers as the leading business leader in Canada--to either elected office or the public service. For instance, when I was on my way into this building I was walking past the leader of the NDP, Mrs. Nash's leader, and I overheard him saying to a colleague, “Peggy is going to tear that guy apart today”.