Evidence of meeting #75 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
A voice
The part that's being taken in.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
As I said in my response to Madam Turmel, the Oshawa and Durham part of this proposal is the most challenging because it's the eastern growth of the greater Toronto area and there are still some rural areas that are slowly being developed. Oshawa proper has pretty much grown out to its developed state, and the portion I'm getting is where it's growing in the northeast. Clarington is also growing; it's at 85,000 now. By the next census it will likely be over 100,000. Why I want to keep that whole and why people in Clarington want to keep that whole is that over time, Clarington will likely justify its own seat, after the next census, with that growing northeast portion of Oshawa. That area will then essentially have been developed in the suburban growth of the GTA. The more rural ridings have slower growth rates than the Durham and the GTA ridings.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Thank you.
For the benefit of this committee, can I have the assessment of each of you about what Mr. O'Toole has put here? Do you all agree it should be the map that the commission should accept?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
And Mr. Norlock as well, who is not here but he's in agreement.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Because your presentations were much more complex. If I understand this well, if the commission does not accept that, for whatever reason, each of you has more modest changes to suggest. Am I right?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
My understanding is that this is basically the last chance we get to discuss our proposals.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
There is no plan B. It's that or what the commission has proposed, and you don't like what the commission has proposed so you are 100% backing this proposal. Is that right?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
Yes, from my perspective. As I said, I do thank the commission because, obviously, they did listen to the community. They made substantial changes, because the overwhelming feedback that I got was to make sure that it was Oshawa-centric and that Oshawa had its own seat.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
The challenge, Mr. Dion, is that any changes that are made in the riding of Peterborough directly impact on three ridings, which then has a domino effect on ridings on either side of them. As I said, with about 40 pages of petitions, this has been so divisive on the ground in Peterborough, I think the best thing to do with this is to simply seek agreement here at the federal level, because there is none at the municipal level, and try and come up with a workable solution. I thank my colleagues, because I think we've been able to come to a solution in what can be a very difficult process, as you're aware, with something that works.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Do you know what the percentage is of the commission's proposal? You go from minus 8% to plus 24.5%, and they go from what to what?
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Northumberland—Pine Ridge under the current proposal is about 112,000. Peterborough is about 114,000. Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock is roughly where it is now, at 112,000. The three ridings on the bottom are all slightly larger. Northumberland—Pine Ridge is about 13,000 or 15,000 larger than what is up there right now. They're all smaller than what the commission has recommended, and the two top ridings are larger.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
As per my previous point, the Oshawa and the Durham ridings are the most urbanized of this collection. Mr. Scott had said the commission tried its best to keep Clarington whole. In fact Clarington was featured as an area on Steve Paikin's program on the challenges the commission was facing.
We found a way to keep Clarington whole, but then there is an impact on mainly the Northumberland riding. It dips down below the 106,000 target for Ontario, but it reflects the dynamic of an urban-rural area in which there are going to be slightly higher populations in the urban seats, and it reflects the challenge of Canada.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
I have one last question. You know what the commission thinks, I guess, when you appear and you discuss with them. Will they have an objection to your proposal if there is no discrepancy in the numbers? Will they raise an issue that you want to address now, to tell them you have an answer to their issue?
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
I can't predict what they're going to say when this proposal goes forward, but I don't see any reason that they would not accept this proposal, because all of it is within the ranges that are acceptable for Ontario, that plus or minus 25%. Admittedly Oshawa is at the higher end of that. As I said in my opening, I'd be happy to have all of Oshawa, but the reality is we're going to have to have two MPs instead of having three or four MPs. I think that would be acceptable to most.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Devolin and then Mr. Del Mastro.
Could you be very quick, please? We've gone well over this one.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
As you can also see from that map, my riding is twice as big as the other four put together. Oshawa is a small riding. It's a built-out urban area. I don't anticipate that what is going to be defined as the Oshawa riding will grow much in the next 10 years. The Northumberland riding is probably the fastest growing of all those. If that's taken into consideration, I think it would reinforce this proposal.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Dion, I just want to comment on what Peterborough County Council said:
Be it resolved that County Council directs that a letter be sent to Peterborough MP Dean Del Mastro and Haliburton-Kawartha Lakes-Brock-MP Barry Devolin expressing Council’s displeasure with the electoral boundary process and the lack of ability to comment on the latest proposal and that the Electoral Boundary Commission....
They need to know that their current proposal is not workable for Peterborough and Peterborough County. This is a more workable solution.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Thank you again for allowing us this opportunity.
These changes, while large in Oshawa, are permitted by the act and really are required to address an urban-rural area like ours.
The commission also looked at growth rates, but that wasn't part of their mandate for decisions on these ridings. They did look at growth rates though and as my colleague said, as the areas of Northumberland and Clarington grow, those will likely be stand-alone ridings and Oshawa will still be able to retain essentially the riding that Mr. Carrie is proposing today, which incorporates all of the major portions of that city in a single sweep.
I consider these changes to be really small tweaks to what the commission proposed. They're not radical. It's really about making sure there's that community of interest within each riding.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative