Human Resources Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study of the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada.

I want to take a second to welcome our guests here today. I want to thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedules to be here to talk to us about what's happening in your community, what you've seen that's worked, and what you think the federal government could do a little better on to help what you ladies and gentlemen do on the front lines, which is take care of our most vulnerable.

We have been travelling east and west, but it was felt by the committee members that we should go a little bit farther north. Typically, when we did our employability study a couple of years ago, we did not come up north; we are doing that now, and I want to thank you for the hospitality we've received so far. Once again, I want to thank all of you for being here first thing this morning.

I'm not going to take any more time talking. We're going to go to opening statements.

Julie Ménard, we're going to let you start. You'll have seven minutes. I'll try to flag you when you get close to seven minutes; I won't cut you off, but if you could try to keep your comments to seven minutes, that would be great. In the time remaining, we'll go around the room to the MPs, who will ask questions or perhaps clarify some of the things you have talked about.

I'm going to welcome Julie Ménard from the Food Bank Society of Whitehorse.

Thank you for being here. The floor is yours. You have seven minutes.

[Julie Ménard, Executive Director, Food Bank Society of Whitehorse]

For at least ten years in Whitehorse we've been discussing having a food bank service available to the most needy citizens. It was obvious that we needed that kind of service. We opened the doors on April 30 of this year, so it's new. We had the board working on this for over a year before opening day. Before April 2009, I think Whitehorse was the last capital in Canada not having a food bank for its population. It's good news for us, and it's working fine.

I want to give you some numbers on the situation here. Since April we have had 750 clients. They fill out forms to indicate eligibility, and those forms represent 1,470 people. A client could be from one person up to nine persons. We have one household of nine individuals.

The food bank has a staff of one, which is me, and the others helping are volunteers. We have a list of 100 volunteers. The numbers are always increasing, so it's changing fast. We have 50 active volunteers most of the time.

We have a lot of donations every month from around 75 individuals or businesses that donate food or money. We give out around 300 hampers each month to those clients. Not all of the clients come every month; we have a lot of clients who are just passing by Whitehorse, especially during the summer, and they've heard about the food bank. They come and get one bag and continue with their travel.

The population of Whitehorse is approximately 23,000 people. From these numbers it appears that about 5% of the population needs the food bank, but that's not the reality because, as I said, some people are just passing by or are coming from local communities. We're not just serving Whitehorse; we're also serving local communities. People are driving from Mayo to get a bag of food. The need is there, and the need exists across the Yukon.

Anyone can be a client of the food bank if they have proper ID. Right now, they can only have one hamper per month, which represents about three days of food. They have fresh food and canned goods. Depending on the day, we may have extra. Most of the food we give is from donations, but we do buy some things fresh each week to put in the bags.

There has been a need. In the Yukon we have had emergency services available for people who would drop by and get some food to help for the day, but this is the first time....

It's working well, and the goal for the near future is to give two hampers each month to clients to cover at least one week. The long-term goal is that we won't exist at all: we'll close because everything is fine.

Our clients are everyone. They have different backgrounds. Most of our clients are single men on social assistance, but we do have a lot of immigrants, single mothers, first nations, or individuals who have just lost a job. Maybe the car broke down and they can't pay.

I have noticed that a lot of people cannot afford their food because of housing. Rent here is so expensive that most of the time the money goes straight to that. Especially when there is a rise in the rent, we see more people coming in. I also noticed that when school starts, it's hard to pay for all the clothing with winter coming, and school materials are needed as well. When summer is coming, we have a whole new crowd. Next year is going to be our second summer, so we'll see if the trend is the same.

From my observation, what I think the federal government could do is have a national anti-poverty strategy for Canada, with clear and feasible objectives that could be achievable and applicable for all jurisdictions in Canada. Sometimes we create big strategies that are good maybe in Toronto, but they may not work for a small jurisdiction like Whitehorse.

It's hard, because we don't have stats regarding use of shelters or our food resources in Whitehorse or in the Yukon. We don't have any stats at the moment, so it's hard for us. We had to prove that we needed a food bank in Whitehorse, because we didn't have those numbers. All the service providers, mostly in Whitehorse, knew that the need was there, but we didn't have the numbers to prove it.

We also need a national housing strategy that could be part of that national anti-poverty strategy. I also think we should work with national organizations on the root cause of poverty. I think we should think out of the box to create and reinvent the system, which doesn't really work right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ménard.

We're now going to move to your right. We're going to have Laurie MacFeeters, who is with the Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition.

Thank you for being here. The floor is yours for seven minutes.

[Laurie MacFeeters, Representative, Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Thank you for the opportunity to make a presentation today, and thank you for coming north. It really is important to us not to be forgotten in national tours.

The Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition's mandate is to facilitate the elimination of poverty in the Yukon through awareness, advocacy, and action. We were formed in 1996, and our more than 130 members have become an action-based team who partner with other community members on issues involving food, shelter, and access to services. Today I want to add our voice to concerns and suggestions that I expect you will hear across the country. I want to give you a bit of a Yukon perspective on our experience with federal initiatives that work and with those that could be better.

I particularly want to speak about process and encourage you to think about two themes that we found very effective in our anti-poverty work here: inter-agency collaboration and user input.

I mention collaboration particularly with respect to housing solutions. The federal government needs to reinvest in social housing programs to ensure that low-income individuals and families have a means of acquiring adequate, safe, and affordable housing. We need a continuum of housing, from shelters through supported living to independent living, with quality facilities available at all levels and with programs to ensure that people are living with dignity and as independently as possible for them.

Canada needs a national housing strategy so that every jurisdiction is working towards the same end. The federal government has been successful in facilitating community collaboration and project funding through the homelessness partnering strategy. We've seen very positive results from inter-agency collaboration with the key players all at the same table. We appreciate the role the federal government played as a catalyst in that example; more funding and a less onerous application process for that program would benefit those living in inadequate housing and those trying to support them.

On user input and the design of programs, it's critical that people living in poverty be asked what the solution would be to their struggles, and we hope your process will include that kind of consultation. In our experience in the Yukon, that kind of consultation has been incredibly useful. I have a small example.

About ten years ago, a focus group was held locally on a Saturday afternoon with mostly single moms on social assistance. One of the issues they were asked about was how a small amount of federal money that was targeted for services to children could be used. A territorial government official was there, and he made a few suggestions. They didn't fly. The group didn't think those ideas were really going to make a difference.

Then the members of the focus group talked about how very hurtful it was that their children couldn't participate in sports or music lessons like their friends, because it was all cost-prohibitive. Because of that conversation and the input of that focus group, the Kids Recreation Fund was established here. There was additional money from the territorial government, businesses, and individuals, and since 1999, over 4,000 children have benefited from the program. It was federal seed money spent in the way the intended beneficiaries wanted it most, and a really successful program was born from that.

I also want to talk about national links and some of the broader pan-Canada issues that we here have an interest in.

The Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition supports the Dignity for All campaign of Canada Without Poverty. We know you will find comprehensive and well-researched input from them and hope you find it useful. We join with them in encouraging you to recognize poverty as a human rights issue, to develop a federal plan that complements provincial and territorial plans, to ensure enduring federal commitment and accountability for results, and to provide sufficient federal investment to provide social security for all Canadians.

We want to add our voice particularly to suggestions about federal support for persons with disabilities who cannot work and for able persons who could work. In a recent discussion with a senior territorial government official, we heard that over one-third of Yukoners living on social assistance have disabilities. We note that the title of your committee includes the status of persons with disabilities, so we hope you will recommend that the federal government work cooperatively with all regions of the country to facilitate the provision of a consistent nationwide disability pension. We must get persons with disabilities off the welfare rolls while giving them the support they need with dignity.

On the other hand, people who can work need to be provided with incentives and supports to do so. Employment is of primary importance to not being poor. All levels of government should work closely with the private sector to assist Canadians to develop the skills and supports to find meaningful employment, and this may entail rethinking traditional models of employment and organizing labour forces to allow employees to work to their maximum capacity, and not necessarily in traditional 40-hour work weeks.

Finally, employment insurance needs to take seriously the employment realities in the Yukon. Traditional trapping, fishing, woodcutting, and tourism are all seasonal in nature, and that reality needs to be taken into account when decisions are made regarding eligibility for employment insurance.

In conclusion, all of the above will only work through partnerships, which need to be developed and fostered among federal, provincial, territorial, and first nations governments, as well as with non-governmental poverty-serving organizations. We all own the problem, we all share the cost of the problem, we all have a responsibility to solve the problem, and we all have a piece of the answer. The problems will never get satisfactorily solved if we do not devise ways of working more cooperatively and with a very concerted agenda to eliminate poverty in this great and wealthy country of ours.

We have the resources. We have the will. What we do not have are the kinds of partnerships that allow us to forget our respective jurisdictional ownership and operate on a model of joint ownership, mutual respect, and equality in decision-making.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. MacFeeters.

Now we're going to move to our last witness, Amy Martey, from the Yukon Council on Disability.

Welcome, Amy. The floor is yours for seven minutes.

[Amy Martey, Employer Liaison and Job Coach, Yukon Council on disABILITY]

Good morning. Thank you for inviting us. I'm from the Yukon Council on disABILITY. We deal primarily with education and employment as well as advocacy and community education for persons with disabilities. So that will be the group I'm focusing on today.

We're seeing the same trends coming up with regard to housing or lack of affordable housing. In Yukon we have very outdated residential tenancies act, which I believe at this time the NDP will be working on strategically. However, due in part to that, we have a lot of substandard housing where housing is available. Rent will range anywhere from $750 to $1,100 a month for a one-bedroom apartment. That may be with or without utilities.

So we find that a lot of our clients are constantly struggling with housing in addition to any disability issues or barriers to employment they might have. Here are some statistics that are actually from the Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition. The general rental vacancy rate is 2.6% in Whitehorse, whereas the rental rate for subsidized housing is zero. Based on our observations, it typically takes six months to a year to have clients placed in Whitehorse housing. Even a wait time of one to two months is quite often enough to put somebody into a situation of homelessness.

One thing we're seeing for clients who are recovering from addiction is that they're living in substandard units where they're surrounded by others who are also facing addiction issues. So despite counselling and all the good efforts to get into a recovery stage, they're constantly being pulled back into the old cycle.

According to other organizations--and we've been doing a lot of inter-agency collaboration in the last six months--the number of homeless youth in the 13 to 15 demographic is growing. Through our client base, we see that a lot of these youth have learning disabilities, FASD, or possible mental health issues. Supported housing is a program run by Health and Social Services, and we've actually seen that as a really positive program under which a person with a disability lives in a unit adjacent to a unit that is lived in by the support person. However, there's been a shortage of persons volunteering to rent in this program. So public education and an increase in efforts for this would greatly help our clients.

Social assistance is something that at some point most of our clients will pass through when their EI runs out, when they're no longer eligible for sick benefits. We tend to see that we have a lot of clients on long-term social assistance, because they can never fully get back into the workforce. They have a fear that if they start at a 40-hour-a-week job and their benefits are gone, they may not have enough money for food, housing, medication, and transportation. According to some of our figures, which I worked out with a client, in order to make slightly more than his social assistance a month, he would have to earn $14 an hour for 40 hours a week. This man will never be capable of working that many hours a week without aggravating his current condition, so we need a system to help people work the best they can while at the same time gaining social skills and employment skills.

We see a need for support in transitioning. For a lot of our clients with disabilities, at some grade level, they're streamed out of academic and into a skill-building program. That means they're given a grade 12 pass certificate. That essentially means they've been in school either for 12 full years or until they're 21 years of age. This means that when they finish school, they won't be able to get into post-secondary institutions without a good deal of upgrading. We're finding that a lot of students don't realize this when they're streamed into the programs at 16 or 17 years of age. They're not fully aware of how this is going to affect their future. We have found that for most of the students with learning disabilities, with a little bit of help and some extra support, they could have actually gone through and gotten that grade 12 diploma.

As it is now, the majority of our clients are working at jobs that pay $12 an hour or less, which is a reasonable wage for the rest of Canada but not for the Yukon, considering our high cost of living. The recommendation would be to have more transition planning in the school system. We just last week made some recommendations on transition to the Department of Education. We're hoping those working groups will come forward with some solid recommendations.

There's an acute need for professional support persons in the Yukon. When we refer clients to counselling, we're looking at a three- to six-month wait just to see a mental health counsellor. Typically, when someone gets a support person, we're looking at one to three hours a week of support. Supported independent living workers are also looking at a one- to two-month wait.

For persons with newly acquired disabilities, we see that we're needing special support. We're having a lot of clients who don't know how to navigate the system. This is their first time trying to receive benefits, and they're completely at a loss. In September, our organization actually applied for funding, territorially, for an advocate who would help people navigate the system. We were turned down for the funding because it didn't meet our mandate. In line with that, we also see clients going through workers' compensation and being put off for weeks, months, or years. I've personally seen people with conditions that deteriorate incredibly during that time.

There's also a tendency for persons with disabilities to be in jobs that are low paying or without benefits. The Ontario Ministry of Community and Social Services, in 2006, found that half of working-age adults with disabilities were either unemployed or not in the labour force, and 36% of the majority of persons with disabilities earned under $19,000 a year. I would think that the Yukon statistics are similar. This is because of a number of factors, such as a slow job market and the tendency, as we spoke of, for persons with disabilities to have generally lower education because they are streamed out of academic programs earlier on. We still have many employers who are not willing to accommodate.

We have a stigma around disability that, unfortunately, still exists today. There's difficulty with persons with disabilities moving into higher-paying jobs with more responsibility. That's in part, again, a societal and employer issue. Despite some programs we have through the territorial government, such as the workplace diversity employment program, we find that not all of our clients are eligible for that program or have the skills base or the personality to work in that line of work.

That is all. Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Ms. Martey.

The MPs will now have seven minutes to ask questions and hear the answers. We're going to start with Mr. Savage.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you all. Those were very good presentations.

The chair explained a little bit about our committee. We've been working on this for about a year and a half now, going back before the last election. We travelled earlier this year to eastern Canada. We're out here this week.

Normally, there'd be more members, but there was a crisis, which happens about six times a week in Ottawa, that a number of members had to be called back for. They're going to be joining us, we hope, in Yellowknife tomorrow. We were in Vancouver yesterday. This is our week to continue to gather information from people who are working on the ground, as you people are. We'll hopefully add to that people who have the experience of living in poverty, and then we'll try to produce a report that makes some sense.

I'm particularly interested in the situation here for persons with disabilities. A number of you mentioned that. I think all of you referred to that situation. I'm looking at statistics we have that indicate that the average annual welfare income of a person with a disability in the Yukon is $15,000. In Winnipeg it's $9,000. In Edmonton I think it's even less than that. It's not a lot of money. Is there a stronger welfare rate for persons with disabilities here, do you think, than there is in other places? It's relative.

[Amy Martey]

I think the way it works is that they're eligible for social assistance, and then on top of that there is a territorial subsidy for people with long-term disabilities.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

And it doesn't get clawed back?

[Amy Martey]

It depends on whether they're working or not. There's a formula. I believe it's somewhere around $5,000 a year that a person can make before starting to lose benefits.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Regardless, people with disabilities face incredible challenges that they simply don't have the ability in a lot of cases to overcome. That's just the hand they've been dealt.

One proposal that has received a lot of attention from people in the last little while is the idea of a basic annual income. I'm going to read you something from a report that the Caledon Institute did earlier this year in their presentation to our committee. I'll paraphrase to some extent:

One...alternative that Caledon has been exploring as part of architectural reform for persons with disabilities is an income-tested basic program that would provide adequate long-term financial support with no time limits for persons with severe disabilities.

This would be “financed and operated by the federal government”, and what they're modelling it on is the combination of OAS and GIS for seniors who live in poverty to take them up to a certain level of income—certainly not significant income, but it has reduced senior poverty rates.

So they're suggesting a basic annual income for persons with disabilities.

The Senate committee of the Government of Canada, who are releasing their report, have adopted the idea of the basic annual income, starting off with persons with disabilities.

Do any of you have thoughts on that issue?

[Laurie MacFeeters]

We were saying a pension, but it's really another way of meeting the same end, so that people particularly with permanent disabilities don't have to every month be...it's not quite reapplying, but it almost is, for social assistance. That's not appropriate. It's something that establishes their eligibility, medically or however, indicating that it's permanent and not going to change, and then they would continue to get their indexed pension or whatever it is.

We certainly have issues about the cost of living in the north being more. We have a Yukon seniors' income supplement because OAS/GIS doesn't add up to the same contribution to the real cost of living in the Yukon that it adds up to in other jurisdictions. That of course comes from territorial government funding. There are perhaps ways the feds could be more involved. The tax system is a big opportunity for federal support for things around the cost of living. We have the northern tax benefit. There may be ways not to dump the fact that the cost of living is more in the north all on the territorial government.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Absolutely. In terms of housing, I noticed that the average value of an owned dwelling is $230,000 which is pretty high. In Winnipeg, it's $168,000. It's not cheap to have a house here.

Thank you for that.

I think one of the real absurdities of how our social welfare works—and there are a lot of them—is that people who are disabled have to keep on proving that they're still disabled in order to receive the meagre amounts of money they're able to get, which I think doesn't make sense.

Julie, the food banks of Canada last week or two weeks ago released their hunger count. I'm not sure whether you're familiar with it or whether the food bank here is associated with it. It showed that food bank usage in Canada was up 18% overall. But one of the statistics I want to get your view on is that overall, 12% of people using food banks are self-identified first nations, Métis, and Inuit. In the territories it's 91%.

Would that be consistent here?

[Julie Ménard]

For sure, most of our clients are first nations, but I never did a count, actually. I'm not quite sure; it's pretty close here to half and half, I'd say. A lot of our clients have the choice to show their ID. Sometimes they don't show their first nations card. I cannot tell whether they are or not, even if sometimes they are visibly first nations. I don't take the stats on that. But it will not be 91%, for sure.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Did you mention that new immigrants are significant to this?

[Julie Ménard]

Yes, we are starting to have a lot of newcomers. In the last few years, Whitehorse has become a place where immigrants are arriving. They're coming from all around the world straight to Whitehorse, and that's new. Since September, I've seen a couple of people coming through who are obviously just newcomers. One who came just last week was actually from Toronto but was still newly in Canada.

So yes, for sure we have the situation of immigrants starting to show up.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Obviously the big issue that this committee is addressing is that we want to produce an anti-poverty plan for the country that starts with a recognition that the federal government has a role to play. It seems somewhat self-evident, but the federal government has indicated--in part through means, i.e., the fact that they say they don't have the money, and more particularly through jurisdiction, in that it's a provincial or territorial responsibility--that they are taking a somewhat hands-off approach, not completely, but that was their response to the United Nations periodic review in June, which recommended that Canada have an anti-poverty plan. I would assume you all believe that the federal government has a big role, particularly where there's a high aboriginal population who are the fiduciary responsibility of the federal government in many ways, and that we should have a robust national anti-poverty plan for Canada.

You have identified a few priorities. Are there any other specific things?

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You may take a couple of minutes.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Are there any other specific issues that you think should be part of that plan?

[Amy Martey]

As Laurie mentioned, there is in the works a national housing strategy. But also there is a meeting, which I wasn't able to attend.

Maybe she could speak on that.

You weren't there?

On Wednesday, there was a gathering of non-profits from Whitehorse to work on specific housing recommendations. One thing that we've been working on along the sidelines for some time is to have emergency homeless shelters. We have a youth shelter that is up and ready to go, but the funding has not yet come through for basic operational costs. As I mentioned earlier, the youth homeless demographic is one that is growing now and could continue to grow.

The emergency shelter at the Salvation Army is very small, but it's our only one in Whitehorse. We're looking at eight to ten beds. That's something that's an immediate priority for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Savage.

Now I'm going to move over to Mr. Martin from the NDP.

The floor is yours, sir, for seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you for coming this morning.

We're happy to be here. All of us around the table think it's important that we hear firsthand. Given that our goal is to develop some thinking around the federal role in a national anti-poverty strategy, it's important that we come to places like Whitehorse and here.

As Mike has said, we've been at this now for quite some time, hearing from people, different organizations that speak on behalf of those who advocate, and the poor themselves, and there are some common themes beginning to emerge. We'll table a report, hopefully, to the federal government some time in February/March. It always seems to take a little longer than we would like, but I'd like to make sure that we get it as right as we can when we table it, with a call for action on that. So it's important that we hear from folks like yourselves.

Is what we're thinking reflective of what is needed? Are there things that we're missing? Are there some unique features in this part of Canada?

You spoke of the high cost of living. That's not something that we, who live in the southern part of the country and east, have any real understanding of, unless we come here and see for ourselves. For example, I spent a couple of days in a first nations community on the James Bay coast a few years ago, looking at poverty. They used, as an example, a case of Carnation milk that in Timmins would cost, let's round it off, $25; in Cochrane, where there's better transportation access, it went up about $10; you bring it over by train to Moosonee and it's gone up to some $40; and by the time it gets up to, say, Attawapiskat, it's $65. It's amazing. And yet they get the same levels of social welfare, and at that time that's what most of them were counting on to look after themselves.

That was an eye-opener for me, and it's something that I think we have to keep in mind. We have a big country, challenging geography, and things are different.

The other thing I heard you say this morning was around the issue of EI and the nature of work up here. We've heard that in other places as well, but I'm going to ask you to maybe expand on that a little bit, the nature of work and the importance of having income in between the seasons, for example.

A couple of things that I'm looking at in terms of the report, that we need to talk about in the report and have something specific on, are income security and, as you've all mentioned, housing--this is a huge issue across the country. There is also the issue of social inclusion.

Maybe I'll leave it there and see what you have to say in response.

[Laurie MacFeeters]

I have two things I've been making notes to myself about as you were talking.

One relates to statistics and research. You were talking about the cost of food, and there's been some recent work about the market basket, the basic food basket, what it costs and what should be in it, and, since some of the things that are in it aren't even accessible in the north, what the substitutions are. There have been consultations about that, so we're hopeful there will be a realistic basket done to do analysis of the cost of living in the north. That speaks to a lot of research.

I noticed a couple of people looked perplexed when Julie said something about not having statistics. Because of our size, when Statistics Canada does various surveys, we're too small, so the statistics aren't reliable. There aren't statistics on the Yukon or on the north for a lot of things. I see your analyst is nodding, so she's looked at this and seen this.

To work to find ways so that we can get better comparative research, our territorial government statistics branch does some things, but it's very hard to place us nationally the way research is done at the national level, because national research so often doesn't include the north. That's a piece that the federal government legitimately has a role in trying to remedy.

Another thing we were talking about is supports to people and the nature of work. Another piece that's unique in the north that we haven't really touched on, although maybe Amy could say more about it, is FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. I think everybody acknowledges this is more prevalent in the north than in southern Canada, and it has huge consequences for the lifelong limitations of people with FASD. Granted, it's a spectrum and the limitations vary with people, but there are lifelong limitations that require tremendous amounts of ongoing support; otherwise these people are basically either dead or in the correctional system. So we need a huge recognition of that.

That's a bit of a ramble, but those are the things I've been noting.

[Julie Ménard]

Maybe I can add that we need a lot of services for a lot of our clients, all of us, but it's hard here to get the proper staff, to keep them, and sometimes it's because of housing issues or sometimes it's because of the salary not meeting the expenses. A lot of services are coming from non-profits, so we don't have high salaries, even if we're in the north. I know that my salary is lower than that of someone in Ottawa running a food bank, and the cost of living is less. There's all this reality that I think we should consider, the fact that it's hard to get properly trained staff to do the job and to keep them.