Human Resources Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2012

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And witnesses, thank you for coming here this morning.

Before I get to my questions, I need to make a comment.

To an extent, I agree there was some abuse of these foreign workers. That is why our government has taken action. We have created a process to be notified of the abuse. Employers who abuse foreign workers are blacklisted and are not allowed to have any more LMOs, etc.

But coming back to my question, we are studying the shortage of skilled workers, whether high-skilled or low-skilled. That is a fact. I want to thank both you and your industry for creating all the jobs. I noticed that both companies have jobs posted on their websites.

Has this kind of shortage been consistent for some time, or do you anticipate the end of this requirement, considering the circumstances and availability of employees?

But before that, and before I ask Mr. Taylor a question, Mr. Salkeld, you made a comment toward the end of your presentation, if I heard it correctly, that the required skills are there, but there is not a willingness to accept some jobs.

Am I correct? Can you elaborate on why there is no willingness?

[Mark Salkeld]

Yes, I can elaborate.

I would beg to argue that we have somewhat more of a social problem than a skilled labour or labour problem here in Canada. If I may, I can use my own son as an example. He has his priorities, he wants weekends and evenings off to hang out with friends, and so on. He tried the rigs for six weeks and it interfered with men's league basketball and video games. So he's working outside doing eavestroughing, but he's working his time, his hours. That's just a peek at what it's like across the board.

As I mentioned, the generation has changed. They're not interested in doing.... I'm a licensed heavy-duty mechanic with a Red Seal, and an automotive mechanic as well. I've worked all over the world, in all sorts of conditions, onshore and offshore. I just took the work and enjoyed it. I don't want to sound stereotypical, but there are kids out there today who just aren't interested. As I said, my son is an example.

So to a certain degree, we need to look at the social situation.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

From the previous witnesses, and of course from my colleagues, from the NDP, it seems as if the only solution they ask for is government funding. From your experience, is government funding the only solution or should there be a partnership with a private industry like yours? You are doing a good job. You elaborated on what steps you have taken to encourage employees. Of course, employee representatives should also come on board and work together cooperatively to address this issue, not just for today but for the future as well.

[Paul Taylor]

Absolutely. Government and companies and businesses working together are important. There are multiple solutions to the problem. As I've outlined in a few pieces here, part of it is in the process, part of it is making sure that those employers who are abusing the system aren't able to recruit in that fashion, and that the employers who are using the system well are rewarded for that too.

There are a number of different solutions to the problem. Government and business working together can come up with some creative ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Shory. Your time is up.

Go ahead, Mr. Salkeld. Do you have a comment?

[Mark Salkeld]

Thank you.

I agree as well. I sit on the board for the Resource Training Organization of British Columbia. We oversee 17 trades. I'm representing the oil and gas industry. We also have shipbuilders, steel workers, electrical.... There's a good representation across the board. What's unique about this circumstance is that the group we oversee has a number of partnerships with industry, and that's essentially what this group is supposed to do. It's supposed to go to industry and be that direct interface, understand what industry requires with respect to trades and training, and then work with, in this case, the B.C. government or the ITA, the Industry Training Authority, to develop the industry requirements with regard to trades.

I'm also involved in Alberta with the petroleum competency program, where we identify skill sets that don't necessarily fall under a trade. Cathodic protection of pipelines and well bores, for example—we've carved out a bit of a niche under the petroleum competency program, developed the skills, the training, and the competency, and oversight was given by the Alberta Industry Training Group. There again, it was partnerships with industry.

There's definitely a need for funding from a federal oversight, but I would encourage government and industry to work together to develop the trades. The industry knows what the needs are. And government can help provide the standardization across the board. An example, if I can throw it out there, and I'm sure you've heard of it, is Australia. Australia has a national apprenticeships program, NAP. That's across Australia. That's a standard for every state and territory in that country. This B.C. group I work with actually partners up with them, and we get some good ideas on how to encourage trades, women in trades, orphan apprentices—all sorts of good ideas.

There's definitely a place for government. I'm not a big advocate of asking for funding all the time. Some support and oversight is really good, but let's look after ourselves in industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Salkeld.

We'll now move to Madame Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today.

Both of you emphasized providing jobs for Canadians before bringing in foreign workers. Since the beginning of our study, much has been said about underemployed groups, such as women, aboriginal groups, young people and individuals with physical disability. We know that the unemployment rate among young people is very high—17%. We also heard, especially last Thursday, that young people and aboriginals needed basic training. Young people lack basic training. They often lack basic training for working in a team and staying on schedule. They lack literacy training, and so on.

Human Resources and Skills Development Canada has a program called Skills Link. That program provides funding for such groups. In my riding, for instance, the Ateliers bon débarras provide training to 16- or 17-year olds who don't go to school or work. That really gives them the required basic training. Another group called Wapikoni recently underwent cuts. That organization provided basic training to aboriginal groups.

In your respective industries, have you noted that need for basic training among young people or maybe even among aboriginals? Could you keep your answers brief, please? I would then like to turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Lapointe.

Thank you.

[Paul Taylor]

Basic training—that's a pretty broad term. For the youth we're bringing into our organization we're not finding a huge need, that they're coming in not well educated or not well trained. A lot of our young people who we've recruited have come through post-secondary programs, that type of thing. So we're finding that it's okay. What they lack is the experience, so that's what we're obviously providing them with.

I'll also comment that our organization has actually worked with an organization based out of Edmonton. I'm not sure if it's a provincial organization or what have you, but it's called EmployAbilities, and these are people who seek to employ people with disabilities. We've actually been working with that organization, I'd say, for the last 12 months. We obviously get another pipeline of potential people who can come into our organization and help us. In the past we've employed a couple of people with disabilities, known disabilities, into the organization.

I think we're open to all avenues, and we're exhausting all the avenues we can.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Could I ask Mr. Salkeld for his opinion, please? We don't have much time left.

[Mark Salkeld]

To answer your question, yes. At PSAC, in two circumstances in B.C. we're working with first nations, and in Alberta we're just actually striking up a relationship.

I've met on numerous occasions with Tom Jackson, a very popular first nations representative.

We're working with a group called Tribal Chiefs Employment and Training. To get exactly to your point, this group is just getting together and is organizing about seven or eight bands. They're working to get education about trades and opportunities into the schools early—it's a grades 1, 2, and 3 sort of a thing—and plant the seeds early. But they're also identifying the youths who are available and promote trades.

Again, the short answer is.... I heard a number. Across Canada, there are something like 400,000 first nations and Métis people available for work. If that's true, then let's tap into that, for crying out loud.

So yes, we are working with first nations.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Monsieur Lapointe, go ahead.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to begin by saying hello to the people from All Weather Windows and congratulating them. This is the type of company that supports real economy, sort of like a company from back home some may be familiar with, Prelco.

I would like to understand some of your comments better. My understanding is that you have a hard time finding candidates with the required skills. You don't have difficulty interviewing a certain number of candidates, but it is fairly hard to find, among them, people with skills related to the available position. Have I understood properly?

[Paul Taylor]

Yes, that's correct.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You also talked a lot about wages. I am not sure I have understood properly, perhaps because of the simultaneous interpretation or because my English is not perfect. Unless I am mistaken, you have difficulty matching the wages offered in other provinces. Have I understood correctly? Did I miss a piece of information?

[Paul Taylor]

No. That was in the one particular example around commercial glazing professionals. Across the board in Manitoba, the salaries are lower. It's not just within our organization; that's across the actual trade in Manitoba.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Are the wages lower than those in British Columbia and Quebec?

[Paul Taylor]

Yes, compared to the three provinces I've identified—specifically, Alberta, B.C., and Ontario. The wages they offer in that particular trade or industry are higher in those provinces versus Manitoba.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Monsieur Lapointe—

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I was getting there—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I know. You were getting there.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I was almost there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Almost.

We'll now move to Ms. Leitch. Go ahead, please.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I almost feel like I should be sharing my time with Mr. Lapointe, but....

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming to present to us today.

It's in some respects not surprising, but in some respects a little bit surprising, to hear about the depth of the challenges you're experiencing. We've spent some time travelling throughout western Canada as a committee. Many of the labour shortages or the skills gaps were outlined to us as a committee. My impression today, though, is that it's a far deeper challenge than we had appreciated at first. I'm from northern Alberta, so I can recognize the challenges that you're probably facing.

I want to ask you two specific questions.

One is with respect to those more highly skilled individuals. I'm not talking about someone with a Ph.D., but about someone who either has the skill set to operate the machinery that you need to have operated or who may be on the R and D side of your professions. How deep is the challenge you have? How many people are you lacking? How many months have you been waiting in order to fill those roles? I ask so that we have a true appreciation of the struggles you're having in trying not only to expand your company, but maybe even to just maintain your company, based on what's going on right now in western Canada on the ground and in your industries.