Human Resources Committee on April 30th, 2013

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I would like to have heard you tell us what you feel the needs are and which solutions you intend to propose to the government.

[Yves Gingras]

I cannot answer that.

I cannot answer as this would be speculative or giving my own opinions on where things should go.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

You mentioned cities of 250,000 people. Montreal has a few more people than that and a lot of manufacturers are closing. In my riding, a Mabe plant is closing. Seven hundred good jobs are going to disappear.

Could we not have similar programs for large cities? Large cities have needs as well.

[Catherine Demers]

We should mention the current objectives of the program and the reason why they focus on smaller communities. There is a set amount of money. The goal of the fund is to respond to the specific, precise needs of older workers who have less access to employment services in their communities.

In big cities, there is a little more infrastructure; there are more services, training possibilities and programs. There is a reason why this program, from the outset, has had eligibility criteria based on the size of the community. It really is the case that older workers who lose their jobs in more traditional sectors have more difficulty finding another job and are more likely to find themselves out of work for a long time. So more intensive intervention is needed in order to help them reconnect with the labour market.

The goal really was for the existing funds to be used in small communities, not in larger ones where a lot of services and training programs are already provided.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I want to talk to you about two things that may be connected. Many manufacturing workers may not necessarily have a high level of education. Continuing education, including the basics and literacy training, might be of interest to older workers as a way of helping them to find a new job.

Let’s say that we know that a company is going to be closing, not right now, but gradually, in a year or two. Would it be worthwhile to have a flexible program that would train workers while they are still working with the company, knowing that they are going to lose their jobs? They could be trained so that they can get jobs in another industry. Perhaps employment insurance program could be used as a way to provide training to those workers so that they can be transferred somewhere else. In that way, they could split their time between their training and their work with the company that is going to close.

[Catherine Demers]

Labour Market Development Agreements, or LMDAs, can possibly provide some opportunities, in exceptional cases, to workers at risk of losing their jobs. It really has to be shown that the company is in danger of closing its doors and that the workers are in danger of losing their jobs. So it is possible to be ahead of the game in facilitating the adjustment.

This is a program that is operated by the provinces. So it can work in different ways in different provinces.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Is there nothing at federal level?

[Catherine Demers]

Workers' training under LMDAs happens because of our agreements with the provinces.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

I would like to ask a quick question about the ThirdQuarter project that you mentioned earlier. I see that there is an online job forum to help older workers find a job more easily. But older workers do not go online as frequently.

Do many people go to the site? What success rate does the project achieve?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Maybe we'll conclude with that response.

[Yves Gingras]

This is a program that started up in one province and has spread to six provinces. It is relatively new, so we do not have a lot of information about how well the program is used or its success rate up to now. The program is currently in the process of being rolled out.

Service Canada centres also provide support to people who want access to databases and computer systems. If they have difficulty accessing them, they can get assistance. We have offices all over Canada. That helps a lot with access to the database.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll move to Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Daniel, for letting me grab your spot. I have a couple of specific questions I want to ask.

I agree with Ms. Charlton. In this study, we're going to look at two different types of older workers. We're going to look at individuals 55 to 64 who have lost a job and want and need to keep working. What are the challenges around that and what we can do for them?

My second question is, what about people who want to continue to work beyond 65 into their 70s? I'll give you the example of one of my constituents in a minute.

I want to start with this example: I'm 55 years old. I've lost my job. I walk into a Service Canada office to file my EI claim. Beyond processing the actual claim...I may have worked for a company for 25 years, but something has happened—they've gone out of business, or downsized, whatever—I've lost this job due to no fault of my own.

What else are we presently doing to help that individual find a job, or transition, or retrain, or whatever, either by Service Canada delivering that directly, or by partnering with the provinces, if we've provided funding to the provinces, to run employment centres that are working with older workers, specifically that 55 to 65 age range?

These are people who want to and need to continue to work for 10 more years, and may have to transition to finish. Walk me through what we do for that 55-year-old Canadian who walks into our offices to make that claim. What else do we do to help them become re-employed?

[Catherine Demers]

A 55-year-old who becomes unemployed can look for assistance through Service Canada for determining their EI eligibility. In terms of supports for re-employment and for training, this person will be referred to the local provincially run employment office that designs and delivers training and employment programs under a number of agreements—federal, provincial, territorial agreements—that we have for training and skills development.

For example, if they are deemed EI eligible, they can access training supports and employment measures, for example, some employment assistance measures. With the support of a counsellor, they identify their needs, do a skills assessment, and receive some job search assistance and job search techniques. With their counsellor, they can identify a plan for getting additional training or literacy training and then would go into what we call the return-to-work action plan. That is managed through the province under our agreements.

If they are not eligible for EI, they can have access to the same suite of interventions most of the time and in most of the provinces under the labour market agreement program. If they are in a smaller community that is eligible for TIOW, where the province has implemented TIOW projects, they can be referred to the community organization responsible for delivering a targeted initiative for older worker project. Those are different types of programs available for that person.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay. That's good. That's what I wanted to know. When I have people coming into my office and this is an issue, I certainly want to be able to tell them what we are doing. I'm sure we could do more, and that's going to be part of this study, but it's good to know programming is there and there are options for individuals in this category to pursue, so I appreciate that answer.

Let's move to the second stage. A gentleman in my riding who's 70 years old certainly wanted to retire and certainly could retire, but the company he's worked for has asked him to stay and work two days a week. They want his expertise; he's a quantity surveyor. They're finding it very difficult to recruit a new person into that role due to the lack of people with that particular skills training within this company in Mississauga.

He believes he's being penalized for continuing to work, meaning when he adds up CPP, OAS, and the other entitlements he's getting, plus getting paid two days a week at a skill level job that's fairly well paid, even though he's only working two days a week, his view is there's really no incentive for him to keep working. The employer wants to keep him because they need him, and he would love to work two days a week. He doesn't want to work full time, but he's happy to go in two days a week. He wants to golf on Thursday, but he doesn't mind going to work on Monday and Tuesday.

His line to me was he believes the system has set up a disincentive for him to continue to work at 70.

Have we looked at scenarios like that? I realize that involves the Department of Finance too, and I understand it's how income taxes are assessed, I understand all that. I think there are going to be more and more Canadians who want to do this, who want to keep working a couple of days a week, for whatever reason. It could be financial, but it could just be they want to do that.

I'm concerned that the way the system is set up is we've got a disincentive for older workers to do that. Have we looked at that at all and made sure we're not creating a disincentive for older workers to continue to work, even if it is part time?

[Yves Gingras]

Yes, we do take this into consideration. We had a number of consultations with Canadians. There was a panel on older workers in 2007. A report was released in 2008. We did some consultations, round tables with employers and employees across the country in 2011.

We hear what you brought to the committee, but what comes out in terms of the decision to retire, the first reason that comes up is whether people are healthy or not. Their health is the crucial element in whether they want to continue working or not. If they are healthy, then the financial considerations in terms of readiness to retire come second. The third element in terms of their decision has to do with the quality of the work experience.

When we ask them what it would take for them to stay longer, the main thing is flexibility in the workplace. As an example, working just a few days a week is what they seek. They're not thinking of the financial aspect first. Many will say that if they're provided with flexibility, they would like to make a contribution.

When it comes to finances, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the guaranteed income supplement used to allow workers to keep the first $500 they earned. This has been increased to $3,500. This is another element that helps with the decision to stay longer in the labour market, but the financial reason is not usually the first reason.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The comments made by Mr. Butt are absolutely correct. I hear the same thing in my office on a number of occasions. It does present a disincentive. Specifically, could you first confirm the funding for the targeted initiative for older workers? In 2011-12 the funding level was about $61 million. The planned funding for 2013-14 is just a little over $32 million. Would you concur with that?

[Catherine Demers]

The annual funding is $25 million per year. It was renewed at $50 million over two years in 2011.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. Is that down from 2011-12 when it was $60 million?

[Catherine Demers]

Prior to that, it was actually $50 million per year, but that included the economic action plan additional top-up. So we're actually back now to the original allocation amount.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That was a one-time thing over a three-year period.

[Catherine Demers]

It was an additional amount for three years.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Perhaps you could walk me through this as we go forward, because the older workers will be part of this. As you enter into the round of negotiations on the new LMDAs, the labour agreements, you would come to the table and for the most part, you would have the same level of funding that you're currently engaged in with the provinces, and pick a number—$200 million with the Province of Nova Scotia. You'd sit down with the Province of Nova Scotia and say, “Okay, we're doing a new agreement. This is pretty much where we're coming from.” Is that how negotiations...? Would that be a reference to the negotiations?

[Catherine Demers]

I'm sorry, but just to clarify, are you talking about the labour market agreement?