Human Resources Committee on April 30th, 2013

[Yves Gingras]

No.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

First of all, OAS is not a pension; it's a supplement. The fact is that this was discussed and debated in the House during the 2012-13 budget debate. All the information was given to anybody who wanted to listen. I don't know why we're talking about this when it's out of context with the study.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

And the information is publicly available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

That was my thought and I would so rule, but Ms. Chartlon hasn't asked for it; she just left it at that. So unless she specifically does, I won't need to rule on it.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Chair, on this point, we've discussed it enough, but I think it's pertinent to the study as it was referred to. But again, if the document is public and Mr. Gingras said that he referenced the document, then I think it's relevant. But I wouldn't want to get hung up on it here. It's public. Let's move on.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

On a point of order, he did not reference the OAS. He referenced the fact of the initiative as far as the Canada pension plan...and that might be an incentive for somebody to stay in the workforce.

Chris brought up the issue of the OAS; she brought that to the table. It had nothing to do with the presentation. So I disagree with that argument.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I would find that if she requested it, I would rule it out of order, and the committee could correct me if they wished. But I don't intend to get into that aspect of it with respect to our study.

Thank you very much for that.

We'll now move to Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Let's get on a more positive note. Let's talk about the 75% of the people who did find employment after the targeted initiative for older workers. One of the things I can recall as a member of Parliament is listening to the testimonials about the lumber industry, especially in Quebec. During the downturn in that sector many of the workers were retrained and went into the aerospace industry, where they found they were getting higher paid jobs with maybe less physical work.

Is that a correct statement, and are there any testimonials of other successes in that program that you could share with the committee?

[Catherine Demers]

The evaluation results from the targeted initiative for older workers show that of those who find employment following their participation in the program, the vast majority find employment in a new sector. They actually transition out most of the time from a traditional sector that is in decline into a different type of occupation or different sector in their local area.

We have seen results showing transitions into tourism, the service sector, transportation. Often some projects are even designed to be tailored to the needs of certain employers with needs in that particular community or area.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

The statement in the opening testimony was that there was a decrease in the compensation for older workers as they transitioned. Is there a reason for that? Is it because of the different sector they're going to, or is it because of the age of the person who's entering that particular labour market?

[Yves Gingras]

I pointed to an expectation of losing up to 25% of one's wage when someone is displaced and has to look for new employment. This is the reality for many workers, not just older workers, but it's particularly affecting older workers. For them it's harder to find a job and often that job will pay less.

For someone who loses their job, there's a process of realizing that they may not be able to find the same wage. The numbers we have, the statistics we have, show that the loss of wage, which is quite significant, could go up to 25% for a person who has to relocate, or find a new employment once they are displaced. This is in general; it's not related to the program. It is just what we observed across sectors across the country.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Are there any other policies that you think the government can undertake to try to encourage more seniors to be retrained for other jobs and stay in the workforce longer?

[Yves Gingras]

I'm here to help you understand the programs as they are and bring you the facts that you need to conduct your study.

What I could say on this is that the government has announced in the budget that we are going to reform the transfers with provinces to make training more responsive to employers' demands.

This is something that will be quite fundamental in improving the way we train all workers, not just older workers. This is something that has been announced and will be negotiated with provinces. We're not alone in this. We are partners with provincial and territorial governments. That's for all workers in Canada, including older workers.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

As we implement the Canada job grant for skills training, those people who have been in those trades and are older workers could be a great asset to furthering the mentoring of tradespeople.

This is something that has been brought up in my constituency, where there's the opening of the new mines, and the oil and gas sector. Young people are going out to these jobs. It would be a real asset to have a person who had been in that trade at some time to mentor the young people who are going into these different training programs.

Is there any way we can somehow encourage that? For the government I'm sure it would be a partnership with the corporate sector, but also as part of that initiative I think this would be a real advantage for that program.

[Catherine Demers]

In the context of that new announcement, what is being planned is actually some consultations with stakeholders and employers to find out exactly how it can work in various circumstances of various types of businesses, and different types of workers and skills needs. It could be an opportunity for those issues to come out during those consultations for the final design of the grant.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Yes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

There are assumptions here that we're moving the age of retirement further ahead and that's not a positive thing for the workforce. I actually fully disagree, because of course I've hit that age.

I think that's a very positive thing as far as the health of older people is concerned. It seems that once they're disengaged, their lifestyle doesn't seem to be as healthy, or as active, which is not good for their overall mental and physical health. I think this is a positive thing that we actually look for opportunities in various sectors to use the knowledge that has been built up over many years of employment, and use those people within the growing economy that we're trying to provide for this country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up and you've made your comment and you've made your thoughts known to the committee for sure. It may be rhetorical in a sense, but....

We'll now move to Madam Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, madam, gentlemen.

I have some questions about the targeted initiative for older workers. The program was supposed to end in 2012, but it was extended until 2014. The first point is whether there is any intention to extend it again.

The second point is that the program targets small communities, particularly those with a high rate of unemployment or a significant drop in employment. But we know that those significant drops in employment often happen in big cities. The manufacturing sector is suffering badly and sometimes there are massive layoffs.

First, is the program going to be renewed? Second, can it be changed so that it can apply to larger cities and to different circumstances?

[Yves Gingras]

I can answer that question.

The program really does end in 2014. Then it will be up to the government to decide whether or not it will be renewed. As a public servant, all I can tell you is that we will be there to provide advice when decisions are made.

The program was designed for small communities. Its scope has already been extended to include cities of 250,000 and more. That is an option that will be one of the considerations in terms of a possible renewal in 2014. I cannot express an opinion on it.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You said that you intend to give the government advice. What kind of advice do you intend to give?

[Yves Gingras]

It is not my role to come here to tell you about the advice that we could give the government on a decision that it has to make. We are here to help you to understand how the programs work and to provide you with the facts that may be of help to you as you conduct your study. I am not here to speculate or to give you my personal opinion.