Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 10th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to thank the minister and the departmental officials who have come here this morning.

Minister, in your opening remarks you acknowledged that foreign credential recognition is a number one issue on the newcomer's mind. I know our government has worked hard to allow qualified immigrants to have their foreign credentials recognized. As provinces have the primary responsibility for credential recognition, what plans do we have to engage the provinces in these efforts? Also, I note that we had set aside $50 million to support the development of the common approach to foreign credential assessment. What does that mean? Would it be possible in future that foreign credential assessments done in one province would be recognized in another?

Second, in recent years our government has substantially increased settlement programs and services to help newcomers integrate into Canadian society. Can you tell me how this funding to increase immigrant outcomes is being spent and what types of outcomes we hope to achieve?

The last question I have this morning is this, Minister. You spoke of immigration fraud being a serious problem. What plans do we, as a government, have to address this in the year ahead?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Shory, for those substantive questions.

With respect to foreign credential recognition, your first question was how we are working with the provinces. First of all, there is of course the very substantial foreign credential recognition program administered by the Ministry of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, which does work with the provinces and professional agencies and credential recognizing bodies to try to encourage them to streamline their processes. We provide support through this HRSDC program for community organizations representing foreign-trained professionals to advocate for a faster and more transparent consideration of their applications for credential recognition with the agencies. More than 400 agencies exist across the country.

Also, our government has created the Foreign Credentials Referral Office, with its $32 million budget. Together with HRSDC, in partnership with the Association of Canadian Community Colleges, we've created three pilot offices through the Canadian immigration integration project that are providing a kind of a head start on integration broadly and foreign credential recognition in particular, hopefully getting people to make applications for credential recognition before they even land in Canada following their selection for permanent residency.

But most importantly, as it relates to working with the provinces, the Prime Minister, for the first time, I believe, in history on this issue, put FCR on the table with the first ministers at their meeting in Ottawa on January 16, where they came to an important agreement to create a pan-Canadian framework for credential recognition by September of this year. As I mentioned, we're investing $50 million in the economic action plan to put the flesh on the bones of that framework. As Minister Finley has said, it's our hope that it will lead to a benchmark where all of the 400-plus provincially regulated professional agencies will give foreign-trained professionals a clear answer on their application for credential recognition within a year of their application. We cannot guarantee everyone that they'll get their credentials recognized; it would be irresponsible to do so, but people shouldn't have to wait five years.

The other day in Edmonton I met a doctor educated in Syria. She did five years of medical training, did her residency, delivered hundreds of babies as a highly trained medical professional, came to Canada, and during the last five years has been cleaning hotel rooms and working as a maid trying to get recognized, with one barrier after another set up in her path. This is unacceptable, and we expect the provinces to work with, in this instance, their colleges of physicians and surgeons to ensure that women like this have a clear pathway so at least they can get an answer and know, if they're not going to get credential recognition, what the alternative is.

With respect to integration and settlement funding, as I mentioned, we've increased the envelope for this by about $1.4 billion to ensure that all provinces are getting roughly the same funding as Quebec used to under the Canada-Quebec immigration agreement. This is principally being delivered through non-profit settlement agencies, which are usually community based, through programs like LINC language training and other programs. There are two provinces, British Columbia and Manitoba, with whom we have bilateral agreements. We transfer the money to the provinces, and they deliver the programs themselves.

One of the things I've asked this committee to review is the effectiveness of our spending in this area. You asked what our objective is. Well, obviously our objective is the fastest possible integration of newcomers, particularly into the labour market. There was a recent study done by COMPASS that indicated that for employers who don't hire foreign-trained professionals, the principal issue is language skills. So it is of concern to me that only 20% or 25% of newcomers are actually availing themselves of the free language training programs we offer through LINC. That's why in the Speech from the Throne we said we want to increase the take-up of these programs. We're working very closely, for instance, with the Government of Ontario as it relates to settlement programming in this province. I would invite this committee to look at other ways we can increase the uptake, the use of these programs. I've mentioned one idea that has been floated, which is perhaps a pilot program that gives certificates to newcomers that they can then redeem for hours of language training to create a more responsive client-based system.

Finally, on fraud, as I mentioned, we're very concerned about this. I will be pre-publishing regulations for public comment later this spring on the issue of third parties, of immigration consultants, and we will be doing public consultations on how to better regulate that industry. I mentioned our efforts overseas to increase public awareness about the fact that people don't need to use third parties, and if they do so, they should be registered third parties. The video we released today is part of our ongoing public awareness efforts in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

That concludes the seven-minute rounds, and we are now on five-minute rounds.

Mr. Karygiannis is first.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Good morning, Minister.

Minister, would your department allow somebody who will deny the Holocaust to come into Canada to speak to a group?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'm sorry?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

A Holocaust denier. Would your department allow somebody to come into Canada and speak publicly?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Karygiannis, I'm sure you know that under IRPA neither the minister nor the department to whom I delegate visa-granting authority have what's called negative discretion. So if someone is legally eligible to enter the country and obtain a visa—that is to say, if in the judgment of the visa officer they're likely to return, and they pass our security and health requirements—we are legally incapable of denying someone a visa on the grounds of, say, their political opinions.

Perhaps the committee would like to consider whether or not we should have negative discretion to prevent those kinds of people from coming to Canada.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If somebody requires a visitor visa to come to Canada, and you know full well that this individual will come and preach about Holocaust denial, would you allow him in, yes or no? Yes or no, Minister?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It depends on the particularities of the case. I can tell you—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Somebody is going to come to a university—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Excuse me to both of you. You know, we can only hear one person at a time. The record can't capture two people speaking. Mr. Minister, you've been asked a question. Try to do your best, and then Mr. Karygiannis will have his turn.

Mr. Minister.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Can I respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Absolutely.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I just have a two-sentence elaboration, which is that I recall a couple of years ago—I think actually I was in opposition—there was an imam from Saudi Arabia with a long track record of anti-Semitic remarks, including Holocaust denial. And I recall putting the motion to the House of Commons asking the government not to allow him to come into Canada. Now, technically the government didn't have that power, but fortunately the person didn't come into Canada. So I think there are ways of dissuading individuals like that from entering Canada.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So, Minister, you would not allow somebody in, correct? Yes or no? It's simple; it's all I'm looking for.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

If the person is guilty of a crime, or we have reasonable apprehension that he will commit a crime in Canada, then we can deny the person a visa.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, please answer the question with a simple yes or no. If you can't do that, then that's fine. Would you allow somebody to come into Canada and allow him to speak publicly—you know he's going to speak publicly—about Holocaust denial, yes or no?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

If a visa officer believes there's reasonable likelihood that someone will commit a crime in Canada, then he will be denied a visa.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Then, Minister, why did your official allow Mr. Türkkaya Ataöv, who is a denier—he speaks of denial of the Armenian genocide—to come to Canada and speak at McGill University? This individual has a long track record. Now, why did your officials allow him in? You should deny him too.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

If someone is guilty of a crime in the country of origin and we believe they may commit a crime in Canada, the visa officer is likely to deny the person a visa. This is the first time I've heard of that case, so it's difficult for me to respond to it.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Maybe you can look into it and come back to us.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I would be happy to. If you have evidence that individual was guilty of crimes, either in his country of origin or Canada, I would be very keen to look at it.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, on April 10, 2008, in testimony before the Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology of the other place, on Bill C-37, the then Minister of Citizenship and Immigration stated that we can use a subsection 5(4) citizenship grant if individuals qualify under the new legislation: “...they could apply for a section 5(4) and not wait until the legislation comes into force.... We don't want to hold the people up, because the law has not yet come into force....”

Minister, can you tell me how many grants of citizenship have been made since last year, on subsection 5(4)?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

While I'm looking for this, I can say that it's not large in terms of order of magnitude. I'll get back to the member with that number, Mr. Chairman, but I think it is in the single digits or in the dozens. It's not a huge number.