Evidence of meeting #23 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pumps.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sonia Marcotte  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
Serge Harnois  Chair of the Board of Directors, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
René Blouin  Senior Advisor, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
Jane Savage  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

On a point of order, I want to clarify that a member of Parliament--you're right, it is not cabinet--has to authorize the franking of the material. They sign off on the expense, the development, and the messaging at the end of the day.

So Lisa Raitt, a cabinet minister, has decided that on this issue, before we have the witnesses come forth and the legislation once again tabled in the House of Commons. I want to make it clear that a cabinet minister--we don't know if others have done this, and we'll find out perhaps later on--has decided they want to use public money to influence debate within their riding on this issue. Perhaps it went to other ridings. We don't know; maybe we'll find out later.

I'm going to consider a point of privilege about this, because it affects my capability and my opinion when you have a cabinet minister doing this. They have a vote at the end of the day that's significantly different from that of regular members of Parliament like myself. When we try to sit at committees, where we're supposed to be--in the history of Parliament, at least--working on issues instead of partisanship, this is significant. It could have happened before, but I haven't seen this before. So to me it's fairly significant.

As far as those regulators, or those who perhaps are poor operators, do you think there's a fine level that would be appropriate to curb them or put them in order? Do you have confidence that it can be done through regulations versus legislation? Legislation means we decide here; regulations mean it can ebb and flow, depending on what the department says at that time. It goes to cabinet.

10:25 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

René Blouin

In my opinion, if it is proven that a retailer has broken the inspector's seal, that he has tampered with his pump—and not everyone knows how to do that—to steal from consumers, then his licence should be revoked. This kind of behaviour is really unacceptable.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no further questions.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you.

Mr. Van Kesteren.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, guests, for coming here. I want to tell you that normally we really get along--really well.

10:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

I want to make clarification on the tax part; I owe this to my good friend, Dan McTeague. It's probably more like 25%, because some of that tax is already taken at the refinery. That's just to get the facts straight.

I do want to say something else, too, just in line with what Mr. Lake said. The intent of the bill--I think, Ms. Savage, you laid that out very well--is consumer confidence.

You know, not to lay any charge here, it's human nature; I think it's probably safe to say that if the findings indicate that the leaning is toward the benefit of the retailer, that, to me, probably means that if you have a faulty pump, you're going to find out really quickly if it's costing you money. And if it's not, there is a tendency--we can turn a blind eye to this, but it's just human nature--to let this thing go.

I think what the bill says, and I think what the minister was saying at the same time, too, is that if you're allowing this to happen, we're going to catch you.

The other point, of course, is that this bill encompasses much more than gasoline, but gasoline is the thing that people tend to zero in on.

To drive my point home, I was thinking of an example of how this bill probably reflects other bills, and it's the Accountability Act. This is an act that basically has stripped the members of Parliament from being unduly influenced by any group.

I think we can all agree--Mr. McTeague, I'm sure, would certainly agree--that when we come to this committee, when we have the witnesses sitting in front of us, by and large we pretty much can see a clear vision as to where we're going to go.

Oftentimes we're accused by the other side of being on the banks' side, or big oil. Well, that's absolute nonsense. There was a time when a member of Parliament could be solely funded by one group. That was very dangerous. The Accountability Act says you can no longer take money from organizations. You can no longer take money from unions. You can only take money from people like your mom and your dad and your brother and your sister. They maybe will give you that top-notch amount, but for the most part it's $100 here and $100 there. We all have to struggle to get to that point where we can run a campaign.

The end result is that when we sit, especially in this committee, we get a pretty good idea of what has to be done--and it's to the benefit of the consumer. I just wanted to point that out.

I commend you, too, Ms. Savage, for pointing out that this is more about consumer confidence, just as the Accountability Act was about confidence for politicians. We can all go out to our ridings now and say, “You know what? I'm not influenced by this group or by that group. They have no bearing on what my decision is.”

So this is to your benefit. When I think about what needs to be done in Parliament and when I think about what acts need to be passed, I'm thinking about the benefit to the consumer. I think we've demonstrated that very well in this committee. For the most part, at the end of the day, we all have the benefit of our voters in mind.

I don't know if that really asks for a comment from you. I think you've pretty much laid out the facts. But doesn't this act--not to lay any charge or to condemn any retailer--guarantee, or at least give us some consumer confidence, that if there is a pump, the onus now will be, “I'd better get that thing fixed”?

10:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

I think the act is, as I mentioned before, for consumer confidence. I'm not sure it's going to change retailer behaviour.

I think if retailers today are doing something egregious--tampering with the pump, or purposely ignoring a calibration that favours them--there are measures in the current Weights and Measures Act to deal with that. The fines have been increased, and the jail terms, etc., for that kind of intentional criminal behaviour, but we do have to note that there hasn't been a prosecution.

The intentional stuff I think is being taken care of today. Bill C-14 raises the fines for that. We can debate--I'll leave that to you--whether that will make a difference. I'm not sure it will, because we don't see any intentional behaviour today.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Monsieur Harnois.

10:30 a.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

Serge Harnois

Let me add another detail. I was told that the taxes amount to 25%. Now, in some cases, when independent dealers buy the product at the ramp, it is not at this stage that they pay their taxes. For Quebec, for the GST and the QST, the payment comes at the end of the month. On the contrary, all the producers, namely the big companies, pay their excise tax once the product has gone through the pump. The same applies to those who have concluded agreements with the provinces.

Most of the sales in Quebec are made by the big oil companies. Taxes are paid once the products have gone through the pump, and not at the ramp. In Quebec, the percentage is not 25%; it is higher than 40%.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Okay. Merci.

Monsieur Garneau.

June 15th, 2010 / 10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you for coming to testify.

I agree with you when you say that the scope of the so-called problem has been greatly exaggerated. In fact, I believe that allowing the spread of rumours regarding all kinds of abuses committed by retailers is nothing more than petty politics. Unfortunately, it leaves us with the impression that retailers are dishonest, and this is certainly not the case.

Ms. Marcotte, you described a program that already exists in Quebec and that seems to be very similar to the one proposed in Bill C-14. Have you taken any steps to find out if the government intends to exempt Quebec, given the fact that Quebec is already enforcing its own system?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

All right. Do you know whether other provinces have programs similar to Quebec's?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

Sonia Marcotte

I have heard nothing about this. Thus, I cannot give you an answer.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Do you carry out inspections from time to time to measure the pressure in pumps in Quebec? Have you any data regarding this?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

Sonia Marcotte

Calibration is required by law, but our association does not do any inspections.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

When you do random inspections—

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

Sonia Marcotte

Measurement Canada does random inspections, but in Quebec, the system requires that retailers calibrate their pumps every second year.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Madame Savage, are you aware of whether other provinces have similar provincial regulations for mandatory inspections?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

I'm not aware of any provinces that have mandatory regulations for inspections.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Okay. So Quebec may be unique in that respect.

The alleged amount is $20 million, and it may be half of that over what amounts to $40 billion or $45 billion worth of gasoline purchases, not to mention, I think, that we're talking about all of the industry, including heating oil, which is another $20 billion. By my calculation, $20 million over $65 billion or $70 billion is infinitesimal. Would you agree that it's a pretty small amount?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Okay.

When asked whether you support the objectives of this bill, you say yes for consumer confidence. I have to say, maybe I'm going around in the wrong circles, but in my conversations with people, the issue of pump accuracy had never really come up until this article appeared and the bill came forward.

Have you heard a lot about consumer confidence in the accuracy of the pumps and as opposed to the price of gasoline?

In the past, was there any issue with the precision of pumps more than with the price of gasoline, which remains an important concern?

Perhaps each of you could provide your opinion on that.

10:35 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

No, not in my experience, other than what has been in the press.