Industry Committee on June 15th, 2010

[Sonia Marcotte]

People are much more concerned about the price, and we hear a lot about it. This is not the case with the accuracy of the pumps.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thus it was not a hot topic around the dining room table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

Mr. Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here this morning.

We've spent a lot of time on the issue of ten percenters, which has been unfortunate, but I'll just quickly touch on this—I feel compelled to clear up any misperception that our witnesses may have been left with. The way the discussion has been framed, one might be led to believe that only government members of Parliament use this particular communications tool, and I want you to know that in fact members of Parliament from all parties across the House of Commons have access to and use this communications vehicle—just to clear up any misperceptions that may have been left.

Mr. Garneau may have touched on this already. I believe he addressed this question to you, Madam Savage. Perhaps I'll address the question to our delegation from Quebec.

You indicated that according to Quebec regulation, there are mandatory calibrations every two years. Are you aware of whether or not that regulation exists in any of the other nine provinces?

[Sonia Marcotte]

No, I do not know that it was.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Monsieur Blouin, perhaps it was you, then, or Monsieur Harnois, who indicated in your presentation that the calibration in Quebec is in favour of the consumer.

[René Blouin]

We said earlier that according to our experience, when there are small differences, they can be to the consumer's advantage as well as to his disadvantage.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay, so it's a 50-50... And why does the experience seem to be different in Quebec from what we have received in testimony?

[René Blouin]

We are not about to go over all the explanations that we just heard.

We think that the data from Measurement Canada has not been gathered through a scientific and random inspection method. However, if that were the case, I think that we would notice that some calibration settings can very slightly be in favour or to the disadvantage of the consumer. In fact, 94% of the pumps are accurate. This could cost 30¢ for a full tank of gas worth $50 if the consumer is cheated, and, likewise, a consumer might also gain 30¢ for a $50 tank. Thus, the amounts are very small.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Merci.

With respect to the calibration that's done every two years in the province of Quebec, could you elaborate a little bit on what calibration involves? Is it a tweaking, is it a servicing, is it a repair? Does it depend on a situation? What do you mean by “calibration”?

[Serge Harnois]

This is not repair work, this is compulsory inspection that is done every two years. The inspector, with his measurement tools, calculates the temperature compensation of the gasoline, to make sure that the pumps comply with established standards. If the pumps are not compliant with the standards, they are readjusted and a new seal is put on to certify the calibration. This is automatic. This is not repair work.

However, there can be repair work, because the company does a monthly follow-up of its inventories for each station that operates on consignment. When the inventories do not balance out or do not work, the first thing to check is the calibration. If the calibration of the pumps is precise, then we can suspect a leak or something of that nature.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Merci.

Madam Savage, in some previous testimony, some witnesses have suggested that there may be a concern, a potential conflict of interest, with respect to having the same individual who measures the accuracy of the pump also service it. Do you feel this is a concern? Is there a potential conflict of interest there, in your mind?

[Jane Savage]

Again it comes back to the certification process that Measurement Canada undertakes today and will undertake to a greater degree under the new regime, so that inspectors are trained and certified in a very rigorous way.

Yes, on the surface there is a conflict between the person's doing the work and then inspecting the work. You could liken it to a home renovation. We have building inspectors, not the contractor, doing the inspections.

However, going back to the certification process, I think we have a very robust process here, such that inspectors who are suspected of doing or who do anything that's egregious—in other words, they are not inspecting the pump properly—would, if they were also the ones doing the work, be rooted out and not recertified, or in fact perhaps discharged.

On balance I would say that our conclusion on that is that we are aware of the situation, but we can accept the fact that the same individual will do both of those functions, as long as the oversight is in place.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

We've heard from Measurement Canada officials that in fact the certification process is extremely involved and rigorous.

Finally, Bill C-14 has an element that introduces administrative monetary penalties. That element seems to have received a fair degree of widespread support. Could you comment on that element of this bill?

[Jane Savage]

The intent of the Weights and Measures Act and of Bill C-14 is to ensure that the pumps are accurate. It is also the intent of the retailer to ensure that their pumps are accurate. So to the extent that the administrative monetary penalty enables a non-criminal violation when the pump is not accurate...

To be clear here, this does not mean that the pump has been tampered with or that there's been any criminal intent. What it means is that an AMP will be applied, as I understand the legislation, if the pump is out of calibration. The concern with it is that a random inspection might take place on the 700th day of a two-year cycle, right before it is to be recalibrated, and the pump is found to be out of calibration. An AMP may be applied in that scenario. Certainly there is no criminal intent.

To the extent that this occurs—and possibly the name of the retailer is then published—it is something we have had to think long and hard about, because we worry that while there is no intent to do anything nasty, or even negligence, on the part of the retailer, this may result in the reputation of the retailer being impacted. That is of concern to us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bouchard or Mr. Cardin, have you any questions?

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

We will share our time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me come back to the subject of overlap. I understand that when a retailer sells gasoline, the retailer is subject exclusively to the Quebec government regulations. Just now, I thought I heard Mr. Blouin, unless I am wrong... Does Measurement Canada have many representatives who show up from time to time?

[Serge Harnois]

Yes, Measurement Canada occasionally carries out inspections.

Measurement Canada inspects measurement units, both with regard to gasoline as with regard to meat or to other products. They are responsible for checking whether things are done correctly and whether the calibration is accurate. The head office receives reports, because Measurement Canada sends a document that certifies that the inspectors have checked our site. If we are compliant, then everything is all right. If there is some non-compliance, they advise us.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Is there overlap currently?

[Serge Harnois]

I do not think so.

[René Blouin]

No, there is no overlap. The certified inspectors do their work every two years, it is mandatory.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Are they from Quebec?

[René Blouin]

Yes they are, whereas Measurement Canada does an additional random check to ensure the pumps are well calibrated. It is not really duplication.

[Serge Harnois]

It is within their jurisdiction.

[René Blouin]

It is not really a burden.