Evidence of meeting #23 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pumps.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:45 a.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
We are already paying out-of-pocket every two years for a certified auditor to do a check. It would not be pleasant to have to pay for another person to do the same work.
10:45 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
The people doing the audit should also be automatically accredited by Measurement Canada, shouldn't they?
10:45 a.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
That would be a solution.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Merci.
Mr. McTeague, I understand you have some questions about the draft regulations.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
I have questions for the witnesses first. Is that all right?
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Chair and witnesses, I'm concerned that we've lost perspective of what really drives consumers and the concerns they have. In 2008, when this article was written, the real issue driving prices through the roof had a lot to do with derivative trading and speculation following the NYMEX between January of 2008 and somewhere around July 4, 2008, with the highest prices we had ever seen. At the time, this committee had spent one day--before the Prime Minister pulled the plug on the election, and I know Mr. Van Kesteren and Mr. Masse were there--in which we were able to ferret out or focus on the real driver of the cost of fuel to consumers.
Having said this, the concern I have heard expressed by some of you here is one that I think deserves more consideration. The government contents itself with the possibility of a $20 million penalty or hit to consumers; however, the half-percent tolerance by Measurement Canada that I referred to a little earlier, if I am to extrapolate that among the 45 million litres of gasoline and another 20 million of diesel, could potentially lead to a $200 million skew against consumers.
So rather than deal with the smoke and mirrors this legislation is providing, I'm wondering if you have any comment as to your concern about the absence of draft regulations. The devil truly is in the details, and I think Ms. Savage you referred to this. I'm not sure I'm comfortable as a member of Parliament giving a blank cheque without understanding the details. Have you had any consultation with Measurement Canada that gives you any relief from the possibility...that you know what is in those draft regulations? They really are the meat and substance of what we're talking about here.
10:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
No, we don't know if there are draft regulations in existence yet, but certainly in my discussions with Measurement Canada, they're not available at this point if they are in production.
From my perspective, there's a lot of work to be done in the regulations of this bill. We must balance the need for consumer confidence with the details that are going to come forward in these regulations, particularly around the definition of a violation, as I've mentioned. If those draft regulations are available, I think it would be very instructive for all of us to see those as soon as possible.
10:50 a.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Ms. Savage, if I could just interrupt very quickly, the question of violation has not been defined. Are you comfortable with what the penalty regime is currently, as it's proposed under the legislation? There was some confusion.
10:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
Yes.
10:50 a.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
With respect to measurement itself, with respect to the traceability or accreditation programs, who does the inspection? How is the inspection done? Is the inspection done in a provable environment that meets international standards? Are those things, which are important and germane to your industry, that you believe are in the bill or are those hidden somewhere in draft regulations that we haven't seen yet?
10:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
They're not in the bill.
10:50 a.m.
Liberal
10:50 a.m.
Conservative
10:50 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
If Bill C-14 passes, will the cost of implementation from these inspections and the regulations that we don't know all the details of be passed upstream to the oil industry or will it be passed downstream to the consumers, in your opinion?
10:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
We have no way of knowing how the competitive environment will play out.
10:50 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
If you're a retailer right now, if you're going to have to pay three or four times as much for an inspection, do you think you're going to be able to go to Exxon and hand that bill to them and have them pay that bill, versus putting in the prices and passing them on to the consumer?
10:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
I can say with some level of assurance that our suppliers won't pay for it. What I can't comment on is how prices will be impacted by this bill.
10:50 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Right. I just want to clarify that consumers are going to pay for this at the end of the day. I know a number of different independent and also even chain retailers are selling chocolate bars, potato chips, coffee, all these different things to be able to make it through the day. My concern is adding another burden on the retail side versus that of the supplier side.
In terms of corporate tax cuts, who benefits more, the retailers or the suppliers?
10:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
Can you explain that?
10:55 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
The general corporate tax credit, as we're lowering it until 2012--who will benefit more, retailers or the suppliers?
10:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
It's not my area of expertise, sorry.
10:55 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Okay.
In terms of corporate tax reductions, you're going to have those independent businesses that are actually providing the retail side of this that are going to have some benefit. But I suspect that the oil and gas industry supply side, Ms. Savage, is going to benefit much more from those reductions.
10:55 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
We have not determined what our expertise was. We did not assess the impact it could have.
10:55 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I just have a suspicion that it's not my local independent gas retailer, as corporate taxes are reduced, who is going to benefit the most, versus Exxon, BP, Petro-Canada, and a series of those. My point is that the pressure still seems to be on the retailer here, who faces the brunt of the customer assault, who fear that they're not getting fairness at the pump or on the price of gasoline in general.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.