Industry Committee on March 10th, 2011

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Deputy Minister, in the front of this book and in your own estimates here, there are transfers between departments. There's a transfer here with the RCMP, for example. What I don't understand is why we cannot find a way, from a management perspective, to transfer money around within your own overall budget to cover....

I'm not happy that we have supplementary estimates (C). We're going to be at the end of our fiscal year in a few weeks and we're still approving expenditures.

Then when I look at the actual.... Now, this is a year old, because it gets to be a year old, unfortunately, when we get the Public Accounts for 2010. I'm picking on you because you're here; I would do the same at any other committee. When I look at what you were allocated and then at what you spent, you saved a whole bunch; it wasn't all spent. What we don't see in the estimates, whether it's in the mains or in the supplementaries, is the actuals. We always see what you're estimating—what you plan on spending—and then have to go to a whole other set of books, which is way behind, in my view, when we get it, to see what you actually spent.

I'm looking at this and I'm new at it. I've been at it for five years and I'm still new at it. You're not spending everything. I don't understand what we need to do.... Tell me what as a government we need to do—I don't mean us on this side, but government in general—to change the process to allow us to say: we have given this department, this ministry, x amount of dollars; now move it around to make it happen, but don't come back to us. And we would do a good job of scrutinizing how much you get at the beginning, and then “leave us alone” for the rest of the year.

I get frustrated that when I look at the amount of money that you came back for in supplementary (B) and that is due to changes in budgets, and blah, blah, blah....

I'm looking for your advice, sir. Is there something we should be implementing from a public service management point of view to allow this to be cleaned up?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Can you give that advice with a very short timeframe so that I can also stay within the integrity of the time?

[Richard Dicerni]

The aspect of main estimates, supplementaries (A), (B), and (C) has been around for a few decades, if not half-centuries. The problem you're raising is one that goes fundamentally to how the government keeps its books, how it operates. We are but loyal soldiers of the rules that have been worked out over time between Treasury Board, the Auditor General, and the public accounts people in regard to disclosure, constraints, maintaining a balance.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I was looking for some advice to talk to the general in that soldier's war.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I think that advice will have to wait for another round, Mr. Wallace.

Now we'll move on to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here on this committee.

Folks—Mr. Estabrooks and Mr. Hogan—you're two of the finest Nova Scotians you'll ever meet. With that, I have a few questions to ask of you.

As all of us know, ACOA when it started out didn't have the greatest track record for responsibility for taxpayers' money when it came to recovering some of the money put into Cape Breton enterprises. But I will give you guys credit. Over the last seven years, the cleanup of that department has been tremendous, and you deserve a lot of credit for cleaning an awful lot of it up.

Having said that, there are still some problems that we hear—and they are front-page news every time—when a company receives ACOA funding of some kind and then, once the funding is gone, they leave or the company no longer operates.

What parameters are in place so that when companies get loans of some kind, the recovery of that money back to the taxpayer can happen, so that the company doesn't just claim bankruptcy and off they go to another part of the planet?

[Kent Estabrooks, Acting Vice-President, Finance and Corporate Services, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Thank you for the question.

Every contribution ACOA gives to business or a not-for-profit organization is subject to a contribution agreement. In the provisions of those contribution agreements, there are many of them, and they certainly contain provisions for us to collect moneys back if the projects did not get conducted as intended.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

What is the current rate of responsibility of return loans? Is it 80%, 90%? I know it has improved over the years.

[Kent Estabrooks]

I don't have the collection rate with me today, but I'd be happy to get that for the committee.

I can say, however, that of those contributions we make that are repayable we collect back in excess of in the range of $47 million to $55 million per year, on average.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

But how much goes out in the first place, in percentage?

[Kent Estabrooks]

This is getting back to the question of the percentage, which I don't have.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Especially in Nova Scotia we have Nova Scotia Business Inc., we have Nova Scotia and Government of Canada cooperative agreements, we have ACOA, Enterprise Cape Breton, which is part of ACOA, Blue Water, which of course has the delivery of some of those agencies.

On the surface, there seems to be a lot of overlap in many ways in assisting businesses and small communities in moving forward. I know there was a lot of overlap before, and people tripping over each other. That's been cleaned up.

I was wondering if you can tell us about the cooperative agreements. When a business calls up and says it's got an idea and needs some help, who does it go to first without tripping over everyone to ensure the taxpayer is getting the best return for his money in that regard?

[Peter Hogan, Vice-President, Nova Scotia, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Thank you for the question.

The federal-provincial cooperation agreements don't exist any more.

You're right, there are a number of players in the economic development field. In Nova Scotia in particular we do work very closely with the province, and if a client approaches us for assistance we work closely together. That might involve having a joint meeting with a client just to assess what those needs are.

We talk with the province on a very frequent basis about some of the needs and opportunities out there, and we do work very closely to ensure there is no overlap and that clients aren't having to go to four or five different centres to identify what assistance is available.

The eligibility of the CBDCs in particular, community business development corporations such as Blue Water, is such that they can assist companies in some cases where ACOA is not able to assist.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Seeing as it's a big item down in Halifax, can you tell us if and when the funding will come from the federal government through ACOA for the convention centre, without getting yourself into trouble?

[Peter Hogan]

The agency has no direct involvement on the decision on the convention centre.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Well said.

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Now back to Mr. Wallace, who may seek the original wisdom.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

If you want to comment on what I have to say, and you don't have to do it today, but if you had anything you wanted to send me in terms of suggestions I'd be happy to take it.

I do have a few more specific questions. Again, it's about process, which I need to know about.

First of all, I know you don't have the books with you, Kelly, but I'm not going to ask you actual numbers, I will only ask you titles and what it means.

When it says at the top “Lapsed or unexpended” and it tells us what that number is that was lapsed or unexpended, does that go back into general revenues? What happens to that cash?

It goes back to general revenues. Okay. Thank you.

Then “Available for use in subsequent years”. How was that determined that it's available for use in subsequent years? Is there a formula or--

[Kelly Gillis, Chief Financial Officer, Comptrollership and Administration Sector, Department of Industry]

It would be based on the authorities in place for that particular program.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Whatever the program is. So it could be that it takes a number of years to do the program. That money is allocated in one year, but may be spent in others. Is that correct?

[Kelly Gillis]

Correct.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

On the actual subset in front of us, I don't mean to be picking on the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, but it is asking for an adjustment, which is more money. There are transfers here, but it's asking for $2 million more. Then if I look at supplementary estimates (B), which isn't that long ago, it asked for $12.5 million, right?

What I don't understand is this. I don't find the timeframe that big between supplementary estimates (A), (B), and (C). Would it not have had the vision to know that it needed that extra $2 million a few months ago? Why isn't it in supplementary estimates (B)? Why are we having it in supplementary estimates (C)?

[Richard Dicerni]

That is an excellent question. I will get the president of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council to write back to you through the committee.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So you basically can only answer for what—

[Richard Dicerni]

The department.