Justice Committee on March 11th, 2009

[Eileen Mohan, As an Individual]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're looking forward to hearing what you have to say to us.

Please go ahead.

[Steve Brown, As an Individual]

My name is Steve Brown. I'm appearing before you today because some gangster murdered my brother-in-law, Ed Schellenberg. Ed was not only my brother-in-law but he was my business partner, and he was also my friend. Ed was murdered on October 19, 2007, execution style, while he knelt in front of the gas fireplace he was repairing. He was doing his job.

Ed's story actually starts in 2002, when eight people, four youths and four adults, beat a 16-year-old boy to death with baseball bats and iron pipes at a karaoke bar in Coquitlam, British Columbia. The four adult males, although charged with second degree murder, were offered plea bargains to manslaughter. A judge sentenced each of the four adults to an 18-month conditional sentence for beating somebody to death. They were basically sent to their rooms for 18 months. A subsequent sentence appeal by the crown was denied.

When we fast forward to October 19, 2007, I was awakened while I was snoozing in front of my TV by the sound of our phone ringing. It was 9:35 p.m. and Lois Schellenberg was calling to ask why, at this late hour, Ed would still have any reason to be working. He was not at home and he was not answering his cell phone. I said I knew absolutely nothing about it and thought it very strange. If Ed had problems on the job, he probably would have called me.

It wasn't until we started to hear the news reports that evening that emergency personnel had been called to the same high-rise where we had been working all that week and where Ed was working that day--where they discovered the bodies of six adult males, all shot to death in one suite on the 15th floor of that high-rise--that we knew something horrible must have happened to Ed. We knew that Ed was going into suite 1505 and that it was the last service call he was going to do in the whole complex.

Since then we've learned that, of the four gangbangers targeted and killed in that suite along with Ed, two of them, named Michael Lal and Eddie Narong, were in fact two of the four adults convicted in the manslaughter beating of the 16-year-old boy in the karaoke bar in Coquitlam, which I mentioned previously. In the time between their brush with the law in 2002 and their deaths in 2007, Narong and Lal amassed a breathtaking total of 48 criminal offences, serious charges including drug trafficking, possession of drugs for the purpose of trafficking, possession of restricted weapons, resisting arrest, and breach of recognizance. In Narong's case, he was charged with 15 counts of breaching his bail conditions, but he was still out on the streets because each time he was brought before a judge he was granted bail yet again. In 2005, Michael Lal was convicted of several drug trafficking offences and of five counts of breaching bail conditions. His sentence for that was another 17-month conditional sentence.

I believe I can reasonably argue that if these two persons, Lal and Narong, were handed sentences appropriate to their crimes, they would have been in jail and Ed Schellenberg would likely still be alive today. We asked ourselves how something like this could happen in our country. How could this happen?

This is what we found out. We've gone on this journey. We've gone on a very steep learning curve to try to answer these questions. Why was Ed murdered?

We are presently experiencing in British Columbia what I would call a perfect storm of lawlessness and injustice around this gang violence on the streets. Let me share with the members of the committee what I believe are the conditions that have come together to create this perfect storm. I can assure you that Ed's story is not a one-off; it is in fact the tip of the iceberg in British Columbia.

Over the last five years the number of these street gangs operating in the Vancouver area has grown from just a handful to well over a hundred. The reason this is happening is this. We have learned that there's been a complete failure in our justice system to hand out appropriate sentences for the offences that these gangsters are charged with under the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. I'm saying a complete failure, and I'm not overstating it. I've been told by a criminologist who's been studying the crime statistics for over a 30-year period in B.C. He's told me that I cannot overstate the situation we're in in British Columbia.

On the federal level, let's take grow ops as one example. Everybody knows grow ops are a big business in B.C.--at least $8 million a year. The marijuana is distributed by organized crime and they trade it for heroin and illegal handguns south of the border, and money laundering is also very much involved. Yet in B.C.--and get this--the statistics show that for every 100 grow ops only three or four of those grow ops that encounter our justice system result in any kind of punishment like jail time. That means 96 out of the 100 get away scot-free. Is this a good message to send to organized crime?

Let me explain just how we have found out the justice system falls on its own sword. If you start with those 100 grow ops, 35% of the time our police treat them as non-cases. They seize the plants; they seize the equipment. They tell them they've been naughty boys and girls. So 35% of our tax dollar is going to policing a controlled substance. The police are shooting blanks. Out of that 100, that leaves 65 grow ops. Of those remaining 65, 42% of the time our federal prosecutors stay the drug charges--42%. So what are we paying for? That leaves 37 grow ops that make it to our courts in B.C.

So what happens there? Historic figures show that only 9% of the total number of grow ops and the charges, having gone through the courts in B.C., actually result in a sentence that includes jail time. The average length of that jail sentence is only three months, and they only get fined, on average, $1,200, and this is after they have stolen hydro to run the grow op at around $1,800. Do we have any doubt why we have an organized crime and street gang problem in B.C? This is just one element of the perfect storm.

What we've learned on the provincial side is mind-boggling. In British Columbia we're experiencing an epidemic of plea bargains. Plea bargains are arranged for over 90% of the serious charges before our provincial courts--the number is actually 95%. Now, think about that. In B.C. a plea bargain is done behind closed doors by two lawyers and then it's presented to a judge for rubber stamping. There are no arguments; there is no public hearing. There's no giving of that evidence.

Members of Parliament have passed and are introducing laws that certain kinds of offences will carry a mandatory minimum sentence. However, in British Columbia--and I can assure you it's happening now--the police will lay the charge at that level that carries a mandatory minimum, but the provincial crown will plead down from that. It's happening all the time, and Ed's case is the only case in point I need to articulate on that.

Overriding everything that's happening in British Columbia, there is a shocking trend toward leniency in the judiciary around sentencing. Our sentencing judges must follow the B.C. Court of Appeal guidelines, which frankly make a mockery of the maximum sentencing provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada.

To sum it up, the trial judges impose sentences far below even these weak guidelines established at the B.C. appellate level, and the public is completely bewildered by what's going on. The judiciary's failure to appropriately address these criminals the first, the second, or even the tenth time before the courts has created, in my view, a new class of psychopathic career criminals. They have such contempt for the police, for the courts, for you lawmakers, and now for even members of the public--Ed Schellenberg. But there have been actually four innocent victims of this gang violence over the last two years: Ed Schellenberg, Chris Mohan, Kirk Holifield, and Jonathan Barber.

Members, do you realize that in the Vancouver area we have drug-addicted property crime offenders with more than 100 convictions who are still on the streets? What happens to them is that once they reach the 50 conviction threshold, their sentences are reduced. Any time they spend in jail is reduced--from the 50 to 100 level. Is that what we want to be known for? Is that a good message to send to people who can't control their own behaviour?

We've heard a lot of talk about the two for one on the remand. In British Columbia, literally, it's a joke. The defence lawyers are allowed to delay and delay, and they dictate the sentences for their clients. The justice system, the good guys, we don't have a say in it.

On the handguns, in 2008 there were over 50 gang hits in the Greater Vancouver area, a record. To date, in 2009, there are 33. The situation is out of control. In handgun offences, the charges are stayed all the time--not enough evidence. They have loaded assault rifles, they have hidden compartments, handguns with silencers, and charges are stayed--not enough evidence.

That wasn't the case 10 years ago. So what has changed? It's this new brand of criminal that's been created, the gangsters. They wear body armour. They're being arrested and found with military-style weapons. And they're driving armoured vehicles. Yet with all of those things in mind, in British Columbia they still get bail. Something is terribly wrong in British Columbia. When we see conditional sentences for manslaughter, which is murder, an 18-month conditional sentence, what's the message we're sending about the value of a human life? I believe the criminal justice system has rewarded and enabled this anti-social behaviour. There is no fear of consequences to act as a deterrent. Really, the sentencing around these gangsters is laughable.

All I can say about bail is that in British Columbia the people you think should never get bail always get bail. Even though more people are remanded, these dangerous psychopathic career criminals get bail every time. The public is at a loss. No matter how psychopathic their behaviour, or how their presence in the community poses a substantial public safety risk, everybody gets bail, it seems. I believe British Columbians have been backed into a constitutional corner on this one issue alone. These people are being released onto the streets after serious criminal charges, but they reoffend while on conditional sentence all the time. There are no consequences. They are a menace to themselves, a menace to society.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I'm going to ask you to wind up, because we still have two others witnesses to hear from.

Thanks.

[Steve Brown]

The reverse onus is not working in B.C. We spend millions of dollars on policing. Are we getting good value? There is 90% disapproval in B.C. around the administration of justice. We feel as if we have been betrayed in British Columbia.

We want Parliament to enact the stronger laws and stronger measures that are being proposed now. We want stronger measures. We want the government to act, and we want the opposition parties to cooperate. The only conclusion we can draw is that the justice system in B.C. is full of holes.

Part of my job now is looking after Ed's customers. I spend a little time with his customers and I have a little cry with them. That's part of my job now. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people have been devastated by his murder. We want to see members of Parliament acting for just average, ordinary people like Ed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you so much.

We'll now move to Mrs. Schellenberg.

You have 10 minutes as well, but you don't have to use it all up.

[Lois Schellenberg, As an Individual]

I just want to introduce you to Ed.

Edward James Schellenberg was a brother, uncle, friend, loving husband, and proud father of Rachael and Kevin. Ed was an avid outdoorsman. He enjoyed fishing on the Great Slave Lake for monster lake trout, hunting and guiding in the Northwest Territories and Yukon, camping with family and friends beside beautiful rivers filled with rainbow trout, hiking and backpacking through rugged terrain, and then relaxing at the end of the day gazing at the brilliant blanket of twinkling stars lighting the night sky. He appreciated all of his Creator's handiwork.

Ed was an honest businessman and a hard-working provider for his family. He was a skilled tradesman, often repairing things that others had long since given up on. He treated his customers with respect and kindness, always doing his best to leave them satisfied with a job well done. He could often be convinced to stay for a cup of tea and a visit. He took the time to get to know his customers, enjoying the interaction. He was committed to giving his customers his best effort.

October 19, 2007, was the end of a long week of work. Ed worked long days, but today he hoped to be home a little earlier as he and his co-workers, brother-in-law Steve and his son Zach, were finishing off the apartment building they had been working on all week. The last suite was suite 1505. It was around three o'clock in the afternoon that he headed to the penthouse. I don't really know what went on in suite 1505, but that day the lives of our family and the Mohan family changed forever.

People have said Ed was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That statement is far from the truth. You see, he was doing his job. He had a commitment to service the fireplace in that suite. He had every right and reason to be there. Likewise Chris Mohan—it was his home, a home he shared with his family. Both our families were innocent law-abiding Canadian citizens, unaware of the evil that threatened us from behind our neighbour's door.

The past sixteen and a half months have been a roller coaster of emotions: shock, anger, disbelief, denial, incredible grief, and untold loss. Our lives have been forever changed by people and circumstances we had no control over and could never have fathomed happening to our family.

Ed won't walk his daughter down the isle on her wedding day or see his son as the man he will become. His life was taken by evil men who had no regard for the lives they destroyed. Their motivation is greed: greed for power, greed for money.

These are issues that need to be addressed here today to ensure that a day like October 19 doesn't happen to another family. As members of Parliament, you wanted this job, and we gave it you. You now have the responsibility that comes with the job, to lead this country. We expect nothing less.

I'm not here today to talk politics, but rather to encourage you to work together—all parties, all levels of government, businessmen and women, and private citizens. Together we need to tackle the issues of public safety that are raging out of control in British Columbia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Ms. Mohan, you have 10 minutes as well.

[Eileen Mohan]

Thanks.

I'm just going to put the picture of my son here. This is my son, Christopher Mohan.

Honourable members of the justice committee, I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be a witness as a victim of crime and mostly to be the voice of my son.

My name is Eileen Mohan, and I'm the mother of Chris Mohan. My innocent son was murdered on October 19, 2007, as he left our home to go to play his weekly basketball game. He was in his seventh season. When rival gang members came to murder rival gang members, along the way they met my son in the building and took his life because they saw him as a witness.

I had just spoken to my son an hour or so before he was murdered. Chris was my only son, the younger of my two children, the baby of our home, and he remains the light and love of my life.

Prior to October 19, I was, honourable members, Mrs. Eileen Mohan. Today I sit before you as Miss Eileen Mohan; my 28 years of marriage has ended. The brutal murder of my son took a toll on our personal lives and led me to take the role of an advocate for my son, while my wounded husband left to be on his own to ensure his emotional survival.

Life has certainly not been kind to my son or me, for I believe the safest place on earth is your home, but how do you know who your neighbours are when they portray themselves as innocent victims? Yes, we lived beside criminals who dealt with drugs, guns, and were members of prolific gangs. Little did I know how much danger these individuals represented until my son's life was stolen. It was like living beside a ticking time bomb, which exploded and caused the destruction of my entire family.

I have a daughter, Patrina, whose heart is in pieces, as is mine, because she was as close to her baby brother as I was. It took me a week and a half to prepare for my son's funeral, because I simply did not know what to do. How does a mother prepare herself to bury her own son, when I envisioned as a parent that when I was old and grey he would bury me? In our Indian heritage, honourable members, when we grow old our children look after us, and I was looking forward to getting old with my son and his children at my side. That enjoyment and pleasure and being witness to Chris's life was taken away from me and my family.

Today, I am not sure whether my daughter will ever get married, because she's so emotionally broken, seeing how in a split second the life of a brother was taken and the permanent damage that it caused her parents' marriage.

Honourable members, prior to October 19 I was a person who did Indian classical dance and who had started dancing in grade 2. Till October 19 I was on my way to getting the Indian classical dancer's certificate. I am a professional banker, registered with IIROC. After completing all my banking accreditations, I had spare time and I had a passion for fashion design and sewing. I put myself into school four days a week to take a fashion design course. I was into my second year at BCC when Chris was murdered, and today I don't have the passion for fashion design, sewing, or dancing.

On November 1, 2007, I buried my son, and from that day forward, I have organized rallies, anniversary masses, written to the Prime Minister and the justice minister, spoken at rallies, conferences, and workshops, and taken part in a gang awareness documentary to curb the freedom of these gangsters and bring awareness.

This gang violence, honourable members, has been fifty years in the making. This happened under the watch of the previous federal governments and provincial governments. Hells Angels grew from strength to strength. Today they have charter houses in each province, and no one can touch them. Seeing how they were treated in courts--they were given conditional sentences, house arrests, a one-day sentence, six-month sentences--paves the way for the gang members that we have today. Hells Angels are silent partners today of all these gang members because they are well organized.

I have a mission to touch these gangsters as personally and legally as they have touched our lives illegally. I have put myself into school, and today I am taking criminology classes in order to educate myself and to see how best I can support other family members who have gone through this tragedy and try to make policy changes.

At the same time, keep in mind, honourable members, that members of organized crime represent just a small fraction of our community. That said, we are currently spending millions and millions of dollars and many, many man-hours because our justice system has simply become a legal system.

How do we bring our justice system to represent the society at large from this legal system that today we feel represents only the criminals? How do we restore public confidence in our system? We need to balance the rights of the society and ensure the public safety, because today we feel that the rights of the criminals have been placed way above the society's rights and our collective greater good.

I believe that my son's murder and other murders could have been prevented and/or his murder case could have already been brought before the courts had the recent recommendations presented in Ottawa by our B.C. Solicitor General and Attorney General been fully implemented--and I fully support them too.

While studying criminology, I have--and it is in my list that you have with you--done research of remand credit, and the four individuals who were killed along with my son were given double-time credit and convictions that shouldn't have been given to them. I will let you read that part.

The second part is touching on what Steve Brown said. B.C. courts, contrary to Ontario and Quebec, have adopted the approach that the application of tertiary grounds during bail proceedings should only be in rare and exceptional cases. And I have given you an example: R. v. Bhullar. The public, the media, and the police have all asked why our criminals are walking the streets free. This is because they only apply the primary and secondary clause and not the tertiary clause. I've been studying that in my criminology class also.

Legal applications. The word “impracticable” should be removed from section 487.11 of the Criminal Code, which would therefore result in more practical processes of obtaining legal authorization from the justice of the peace for warrants. I'll leave you with that to read.

I have also given you the recent case of R. v. Ebanks, and that supports that.

Criminal Bench of B.C. Courts. I feel this is very important, because today there is a clear need for an institute of criminal bench in B.C. at the Supreme Court level and in each province in order to ensure that judges presiding over criminal crime trials, often for murders and violent offences involving organized crimes, are appointed from criminal law practice and therefore have the necessary experience to make a sensible trial decision and judgment. We are not seeing this in British Columbia, and there's a public outcry. Why are these people walking the streets? It's because judges appoint judges, and judges don't care what the public's opinions are. Because they're an entity of their own and they cannot be touched by the Attorney General--they can only be advised--they really don't get it in British Columbia.

I think we need more police. I've given you that input also.

I've given you my conclusion, but I also want to say that I am very encouraged by what I see today. Organized crime was 50 years in the making, and I believe we will not let another 50 years go by before anything is done or we let our grandchildren or children resolve this. I'm really encouraged that we have a committee here and federal and provincial governments that are ready to do something. All they need is support.

And we do need support from all parties. I believe all parties are represented here. Take this message to your own parties and say, “In British Columbia the bullets are flying. We are touched, and we need assistance, so please help.”

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Ms. Mohan. And thank you, to all three of you, for your compelling testimony.

We're going to give an opportunity for our members to ask questions. I'm going to go first to Mr. Dhaliwal.

I understand you're sharing your time with Mr. Dosanjh. You have five minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to say--and I think I speak not just for me and my family, but for my constituents in Surrey and Delta--that our hearts go out to you and your families. I would also like to thank you for your courage and bravery to come today and guide us in the direction we should be heading. The tragedies that have happened to you should not happen to anyone else.

We were together at a rally in Surrey, which was organized by Paul Hillsdon and Trevor Loke. We are all shocked and appalled by the recent spike in gang violence. We are caught in the middle of a new battleground, and we all have to make sure this battle does not become a drawn-out war. I would like to thank you for the work you have done over the last few years, because this is the type of work that will make sure this battle does not become a war.

When it comes to personally supporting legislation, I have always been very clear and up front in supporting being tough on crime, irrespective of which party brought in the legislation. On the other hand, I have always advocated for more police and community resources to deal with the people who are vulnerable to these gang members.

That was my two minutes. I would like to pass it on to Mr. Dosanjh to make some remarks.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I too would like to thank you. It is not easy to do what you're doing. You have obviously turned personal tragedies into constructive work and advocacy on behalf of all Canadians. I would personally like to thank you. As a British Columbian, I admire your courage.

I'm not going to ask you any questions. You have spelled out your views very clearly. I will, of course, look at the presentation and read up on some of the cases you've attached or mentioned. But rest assured, when we come to issues of crime and public safety, no one comes to these issues in a partisan political fashion. We may differ at times, and we do so vigorously and rigorously, but ultimately we share the conviction that we need to do more.

I can only imagine the pain you've gone through, but we share the conviction with you--all of us around this table and in this House share the conviction--that we need to do more and we need to do better on this issue for all Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you for those remarks.

I'll move on to Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too would like to tell you that I think what you're doing is extremely courageous. It is not difficult to understand that what you have gone through is extremely traumatic. I hope today you will find three sources of comfort.

First, I have been a member of Parliament since 1993 and I can tell you that in the past, the House has proven that it is quite easy to reach consensus on issues regarding organized crime. You should remember that a number of communities, in particular Montreal, which Mr. Petit was speaking about a few moments ago, have experienced a phenomenon similar to what is happening in B.C. at the moment. Some distinctions do have to be made, however. At the time, it was really a war against the Hells Angels and the Rockers. I understand that that was not so much the case for you. We agreed quite quickly that a new offence had to be created. So we added the offence of gangsterism to the Criminal Code, which was described as being five individuals who committed serious offences, punishable by more than two years' imprisonment, for the purpose of providing material or financial resources to an organization. The police explained to us that it was not a good idea to keep the number at five, so we reduced it to three. Since organized crime is evolving very quickly, we later broke the section down into three parts to facilitate indictments.

At the moment, we're all trying to understand the characteristics of organized crime in 2008. It is different from organized crime as it existed in 1995. We are very aware of what is going on in British Columbia, so much so that we decided we needed to go to B.C. as a committee. We will be doing that in April. We are looking for things that can be done to enable the police to lay charges.

I heard you speaking out against judges. I can understand your view on this, but, with all due respect, I do not think the solution lies in this area. In my opinion, the police must have the tools they need to lay charges and later we will see about their effectiveness.

I support the bill because of the offence punishable by a prison term of 25 years. When people have reached this level of responsibility in organized crime, they should not be eligible for parole for a long time. This is how we will destroy the networks. I think this works much better than minimum sentences or other types of measures. We need to give the police more tools to do their job.

You can count on us to work diligently and without partisanship. I think the trials you are going through at the moment will help us go further in our common struggle.

I thank you very much for your courage. You can count on us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Along with the rest of the speakers, I want to thank you for coming. I can't imagine, having children of my own and an extended family of my own, how difficult it is for you to deal with the loss of your family members.

Let me assure you that we don't get very many witnesses like you in front of this committee. We have not historically, and I've been on this committee for just about five years now. We do occasionally, and I want to say to you that when we do, as perhaps Mr. Ménard was saying, they inspire us to keep doing our job, to try to find methods within our criminal justice system, and the target always is to prevent any crimes. But how to deal with them, how to provide our police and our courts with the tools to both prevent and prosecute when that becomes necessary...it's not a perfect system by any means.

Mr. Brown, you've raised points on some specific problems, and I guess, Ms. Mohan, you have as well for B.C. I think we need to address that, and so we need to do work on it.

I think all of us--at least member of all parties--met with the Attorney General when he was here a week and a half ago, and he certainly drew to our attention the needs he has from us at the federal level. We're attempting to respond to those as quickly as we can. Similarly, we said back to him that there are obviously needs they have to respond to within their jurisdiction.

The point I want to make is that this work is going on now. Your presence here and, I'm sure, in British Columbia when you meet with them is an instigation for us to keep working at this, to not let up. I don't believe that we can ever completely eradicate crime in our society, at least not for centuries, but I also firmly believe that there is a lot more we can do to lower the crime rate, to shut down a lot of these gangs and organized crime more generally, and that we need to work on that very extensively. Your presence here today will keep us inspired to keep working at it, so thank you again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We have a question, I believe, or some thoughts, from Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank each of you for being here with us today and for sharing your grief and your courage. You have challenged us to bring safety back to our communities. That is a task that I believe every member of this committee takes seriously. Hearing from you and hearing your challenge to us does motivate us in that direction.

I met Mr. Brown and Mrs. Mohan about a year ago in my office. Tragically, things have gotten worse instead of better. Many of the recent shootings started in Langley, in the Walnut Grove area. My immediate response was to phone my family to see if they were okay.

I heard from parents who were out shopping at the local grocery store, and they were experiencing things that we never imagined: hitting the floor; being beside a car that had its windows blown out, with somebody killed in it; and people running for their lives.

I talked to a parent a week ago. They have a six-year-old and a two-year-old. They have taught their child what to do: don't talk to strangers, what to do in emergencies--stop, drop, and roll--and all the different things you teach a child. They've now taught this child what to do if the child hears gunfire. The six-year-old is to hit the floor--jump out of his car seat, get on the floor of the car, and take his little brother out of his car seat and pull him down to the floor too. This is how people are living, and we have to do something.

We introduced, and it came into force in May of last year, the Tackling Violent Crime Act. In that new legislation, there was a change to reverse onus for bail release. Mr. Brown, you brought up three main things: the two-for-one remand, bail for serious offences, and conditional sentencing. Two of those were in the Tackling Violent Crime Act. Conditional sentencing for serious offences is not to be permitted, and there is a reverse onus for bail for serious crimes.

I believe you were at a recent rally in Surrey. In your case, I believe, there's been no one charged and no conviction. In your case, we don't know who committed those murders or if it was one person or a number of people. There is nobody. When we do catch somebody, they're charged and they're released on bail. How does that happen? Having a background in loss prevention and writing up fatality reports for the provincial corporation, ICBC, you look at the causes. What caused that situation, and what are the solutions to try to keep that from ever happening again?

All of you have eloquently highlighted your perspectives on some of the causes. Could you elaborate on solutions?

[Steve Brown]

I'll comment on that.

On the reverse onus provision for bail, which you brought in last year, most of the time crown prosecutors will not even argue it. They will not even ask for it, as they feel that it's not strong enough. And when they do, the judges never buy the argument anyway. It's completely useless.

There's frustration. I think the judges who want to apply it feel that, whatever the wording is, however it's been written.... I know that our Solicitor General in British Columbia said that he wants to see the reverse onus extended to a broader range of offences than gun-related and gang-related offences. I can tell you that just before I left, I spoke with a police inspector in the city of Vancouver, and he said that most times the prosecutors will not even bother trying to apply reverse onus. They don't feel that they could make a sufficient argument to a judge.

I don't know what the solution is.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Does anybody else have ideas on solutions?

[Eileen Mohan]

We need to have judges who understand gun violence, gang violence, drug trafficking. Until the bench is willing to prosecute these people in the way they have been terrorizing our streets, our families.... They have disregard for the public, no respect for any life at all, and it is in the hands of the judges to put these people behind bars. I totally believe that. These people need to do their job seriously, and they are not. So unless we have some sort of place where we could go to see how each judge has been doing his or her duty and how we can put more judges who understand the situation that is happening in our society and the cases that are coming before them, this will never be resolved. We need the commitment of judges.

We can do everything else, but if it comes to the court of law and the judge does not recognize the present and clear danger, then all is lost.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you to all three of the witnesses.

The reason you haven't received more questions is probably because your testimony has been so powerful and compelling. Most of us at the table can't even begin to imagine what you've gone through and the loss that you've suffered. Again, thank you so much. I just encourage you to keep up the good fight. Hopefully there will be a positive response from our government to address the needs that are clearly out there with respect to violent crime, drug-related crime, gun crime, and organized crime.

Thank you.

[Eileen Mohan]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll just take a minute break while the room clears out, and then we have some items of business to discuss in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]