Evidence of meeting #45 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offences.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carole Morency  Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number 45 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Wednesday, February 2, 2011.

You have before you the agenda for today. We're continuing our review of Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (sexual offences against children).

To assist us with our review, we have with us again our Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, the Honourable Rob Nicholson, and accompanying him are senior officials from the Department of Justice. We have with us Carole Morency, acting general counsel, criminal law policy section, and Donald Piragoff, senior assistant deputy minister, policy sector.

Welcome to all three of you.

Joining them will be Matthias Villetorte, counsel, criminal law policy section, once the minister leaves.

A reminder to all members to provide any proposed amendments to the clerk. We're hoping to move to clause-by-clause during the second half of the next meeting, which is Monday. That might carry over into the following day, which would be Wednesday. In any event, if you could get those amendments to us, it would be very helpful to the clerk and the rest of the members.

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I think we should discuss this at tomorrow's steering committee meeting.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

At the meeting of the steering committee tomorrow?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Yes, we intend to discuss that at the steering committee tomorrow. We want to make sure everybody has lots of advance notice that we would like to see your proposed amendments, and, as you know, tomorrow we'll be discussing the calendar going forward, exactly how those meetings will play out.

In any event, we have the minister with us.

Minister, you have ten minutes and then we'll open the floor to questions from our members.

3:30 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I am very pleased to appear before the committee as you begin your review of Bill C-54, the Protecting Children from Sexual Predators Act.

Our goal with this bill is twofold. First, it seeks to ensure that all child sexual offences are treated seriously and consistently for sentencing purposes. Second, it proposes reforms that seek to help prevent the commission of sexual offences against children.

This bill's sentencing reforms target mandatory penalties for all sexual offences where the victim is a child. The sexual abuse of any child is a serious offence, and it must be clearly denounced. Our government believes that child sexual offenders must receive sentences that reflect the seriousness of their crimes and the danger they represent to our children.

As members of the committee will know, acts of child sexual abuse can be charged under child-specific offences or under the general sexual offences that apply to both adults and child victims. Though these two groups of offences address similar conduct, they do not impose similar penalties where the victim is a child.

For example, some of the child-specific sexual offences impose mandatory minimums, but none of the general sexual offences impose mandatory penalties. In addition, the variations in sentencing often result in conditional sentences of imprisonment--house arrest, as it's often referred to--for some offences but not for others.

The effect of this varying treatment is that not all child sexual assaults are treated equally seriously by the system. In fact, given that 80% of police-reported incidents of child sexual assault in 2008 were charged under the general sexual assault offence in section 271 of the Criminal Code, this means that the overwhelming majority of child sexual offences do not carry a mandatory minimum penalty. This bill changes that.

There are currently 12 child-specific sexual offences that impose mandatory penalties. Amendments made in 2005 to those offences resulted in mandatory penalties being added to only some of the child-specific sexual offences and to none of the general sexual assault provisions. These changes produced a random and inconsistent approach to mandatory penalties such that they do not all adequately reflect the serious nature of the offences.

In order to fix these inconsistencies and ensure that sexual predators receive sentences that reflect the extreme seriousness of their crimes, this bill proposes to add seven new mandatory penalties to offences that currently do not impose mandatory sentencing. Three of these are child-specific offences: the bestiality provisions, the Internet luring of a child, and the exposure to a child under 16 years of age. The other four are general sexual offences, and the mandatory penalties will apply where the victim is a child under the age of 16, the age of consent.

They are section 155, incest; section 271, sexual assault; section 272, sexual assault with a weapon, threats, or causing bodily harm; and section 273, aggravated sexual assault.

This bill proposes higher mandatory penalties for seven child-specific sexual offences that already carry mandatory penalties. This will ensure that the mandatory penalty is not only commensurate with the offence in question but is also consistent with other mandatory penalty offences.

For example, Bill C-54 would increase the current mandatory penalty for section 151, sexual interference--which carries a maximum penalty of 10 years on indictment--from 45 days mandatory to one year mandatory. In this way, the higher mandatory penalty would be consistent with the new mandatory penalty proposed for section 271, the general sexual assault offence.

Bill C-54 also seeks to prevent the commission of a sexual assault against a child. It does so by proposing the creation of two new offences and by requiring the courts to consider imposing two new specific conditions that would seek to prevent a suspected or convicted child sex offender from engaging in conduct that would facilitate their sexual offending.

The first new offence proposed in this bill would prohibit anyone from providing sexually explicit material to a young person for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offence against the young person. Child sex offenders often provide such material to their intended victims with a view to lowering their sexual inhibitions; in other words, they do this as part of the grooming process of their victim.

Today, if that material constitutes child pornography, irrespective of the purpose, it is already prohibited. Bill C-54 does not change that. But where the material in question is not child pornography--in other words, where it depicts adults engaged in explicit sexual activity as defined by the new offence--the Criminal Code does not currently catch this unless the material meets the very high threshold definition of obscene material under section 163.

Bill C-54 will change this. It proposes to prohibit providing sexually explicit material to a young person for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offence against that child. This new offence would carry a penalty similar to that for the existing obscenity and corrupting morals offence in section 163.

Bill C-54 also proposes to prohibit anyone from using telecommunications such as the Internet to make arrangements with another person to commit a sexual offence against a child. In addition, this bill proposes other needed consequential amendments, including, for example, adding the two proposed offences to subsection 7(4.1) of the Criminal Code, which provides Canadian courts with extraterritorial jurisdiction to enable the prosecution of Canadian child sex tourists. Both of the proposed new offences would carry mandatory sentences of imprisonment.

Lastly, our bill proposes to expand the powers of the court to prohibit a convicted child sex offender under section 161 of the Criminal Code and to prohibit a suspected child sex offender under section 810.1 from engaging in conduct that may facilitate their commission of one or more of the enumerated sexual or abduction offences. First, the list of offences would be expanded to include four prostitution offences where the victim is a child; second, the courts would be specifically directed to consider imposing a condition prohibiting the offender from having any unsupervised access to a young person and from having any unsupervised use of the Internet.

The imposition of these conditions would help to prevent the offender from being placed in a situation where he has access and opportunity to sexually assault a child, and from having unfettered use of the Internet and other technologies that are so instrumental in the commission of child pornography and other child-sexually-exploitive offences.

These are the key elements of this bill. As do all law-abiding Canadians, our government knows that the sexual exploitation of children causes irreparable harm to the youngest and most vulnerable members of our society. Our message in Bill C-54 is strong and clear: to those dangerous sexual predators who abuse children, from now on you will go to jail.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, Minister.

We'll begin with Mr. Murphy, for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you.

Minister, thank you for your overview of this bill.

Curiously, we had witnesses before we had you, and one of the witnesses, Mr. Rushfeldt, was very interesting in terms of his submission. I've spoken to Nathan Cooper as well, from that group, about the definition used in section 163.1 as it relates to child pornography. I'll turn your attention to that.

Although applauding the bill in general, he suggests that the definition should more accurately reflect what is depicted in what is being trafficked or used; that is, to use their words, “child sex abuse materials”. The images depicted are abuse. They are rapes; they are attacks. They are the most heinous of crimes, which leads me to this question.

Your spokesperson.... I don't know whether she's a lawyer. I don't know whether she's schooled in these sections of the code. But your spokesperson said that the definition of child pornography found in section 163.1 is among the most comprehensive in the world and leaves no doubt that heinous crimes are illegal.

I'm struck by the evidence of the people who work in this field. I think you have some empathy for them as well. My point is that the images actually are child sex abuse materials, which is a stronger definition than what is defined under section 163.1, child pornography. If the crimes you're seeking to accelerate or increase the penalties upon are very serious crimes, they ought to be accurately reflected.

This is my first question. I wonder, therefore, if you would be open to the idea—maybe not in this bill, maybe it's outside the scope—of amending the definition, or whether you stand by your spokesperson's words in this regard.

As these things tend to go long on answers, Minister, because you're so eloquent in your responses, I'm going to load you with another question.

Why didn't you bring this bill sooner? This isn't the usual case where this is a regurgitation of another bill. I wonder why it took so long. You've made much, frankly, of saying that everybody blocked you all the way, and that Liberals are new to this crime deal, and all that sort of garbage that you say in the other place. But I've been here five years and I don't remember this bill. I really would have liked to have seen this bill.

I've been talking to Nathan Cooper for three or four years, and I speak for myself here, but I haven't blocked you every step of the way. I haven't, minister. So why not sooner? And would you be open to this...? I'm interested in your comments on the definition of child pornography versus child sexual abuse materials.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

First of all, in answer to your question about child pornography, no. I would oppose any plans to change that. That is the bill that has been litigated and defined, and considered by the courts of this country. That is the term that is used in all my international discussions with other G-8 justice ministers. This is the term that is used at the United Nations.

The term “child pornography” goes beyond just the depiction of child sexual abuse images. It's broader than that. I can tell you that the definition includes not only images depicting the actual sexual abuse of a real child but also the depiction of such abuse of an imaginary child, images that do not depict the sexual abuse of a real or imaginary child but that depict a child's sexual organs for a sexual purpose, written or audio material that advocates or counsels unlawful sexual activity with the child, written or audio material.... It's considerable. It's larger. It's part of the lexicon of our legislation in this area. I am not prepared to change that because I believe that would restrict what we are talking about.

With respect to that, I'm sure you would be very aware of how difficult it is to get any piece of legislation passed. I had legislation that took about a year and a half that included provisions to protect 14- and 15-year-olds, for the first time since the 1890s, against child sexual abusers. And you would be aware of the fact that there were members of your caucus who were tripping over each other to get in front of a camera to say that there was somehow--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

They must have tripped over you on the way.

Just talk about this bill. Why so long?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You're asking why now for this bill?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Yes, five years.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm telling you that it's very difficult to get anything, even protecting 14- and 15-year-olds. We are in the business of protecting children from child sexual abuse. I have another bill requiring Internet service providers.... 'll say get those bills passed, and I promise you that we will continue to make strides in protecting children and continue to protect this country from violent criminals. It's not easy. Let's get this bill passed. Let's get the other bills passed.

I'm sure you and your colleagues talk about this at caucus—all the efforts that are made to slow down these bills or to oppose them, or to challenge them--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Can we get back to the bill?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's a challenge, Mr. Chair, but I'm going to tell you something. I'm proud to be part of a group of individuals who have made this a priority, and we're going to continue to push until this is the law of this country.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Make your speeches elsewhere, Minister.

Abuse is actually not in section 163.1. That's why I was asking. But I'll leave that for the technocrats who actually know the stuff.

I want to ask you about Inspector Naylor's comments yesterday. He seemed a very forthright, upright, law enforcement official. He suggested that we could always use more tools. Obviously, he was in favour. This is about the telecommunications aspect of making arrangements to commit a sexual offence, which is a very nice part of this legislation. We were reminded that Bill C-46, I think it was, was a bill that lived until your government killed it through prorogation, which would have given investigative powers. Can you tell me where we are with that, and whether you want to....

If we could all just lower the temperature on the hyperbole, I guess.... There's a mea culpa there.

I know that you're laughing, because you always do, Bob, but the point is that we want to get some things done. This is a good bill to get done, and so is Bill C-46. Where is it?

February 2nd, 2011 / 3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I think you have the wrong number. It's Bill C-51.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

It's on investigative powers.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Investigative powers for the 21st century.

Certainly I'll pass on to the House leader that you're very anxious to get that bill passed. This would certainly be a beautiful thing.

Yes, I have talked with law enforcement agencies. Updating the Criminal Code with respect to the investigative tools within the Criminal Code is very important to them.

As I've said before, Mr. Chairman, criminals don't just phone each other any more. They've gotten out of the habit of sending telegrams to each other. So the laws of this country have to be updated to reflect the current state of technology. So the bills we have with respect to lawful access and investigative powers are another priority for this government.

Again, I'll pass on to the government House leader how anxious some members of the Liberal Party apparently are to get this passed. I say to hang tough in there, and let's get those bills passed.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Ménard, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have the feeling that you care very much about this bill.

During your presentation, I noted the different categories of offences which have been created and the different sentences which will be applied.

Can you tell us how many minimum sentences will be applied under this bill?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Is it two for the new offences...? Seven have been included, and I believe that there are another nine. There's an increase of seven altogether, Monsieur Ménard, for which there may not already be a mandatory penalty.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

How many are there for the new offences?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, there are mandatory penalties with respect to the new ones as well.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

How many?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

They are the two new offences that have been created under this bill.