Evidence of meeting #45 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offences.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
An association called the Church Council on Justice and Corrections sent the Prime Minister a letter on that subject on December 17.
Have you read the letter which was sent to the Prime Minister?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I don't have a copy of the letter. It wasn't addressed to me.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Perhaps you could ask the question. What's your question?
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Any conversation I have that is between the Prime Minister and me I'm not going to repeat, but if you have a question about it, I'd be glad to answer.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Again, my understanding is that the letter was sent to the Prime Minister, and I'm aware of the letter. If you have any questions about it, please ask.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That is what I wanted to know. You are aware of the existence of this letter and of its content.
Could you tell us what you think about the content of this letter?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Well, I'm glad to have input. All of the time I'm glad to have suggestions on any of these. We look forward to getting input from a wide range of individuals. We certainly have that, and if it's your intention to call that group before you here, you're certainly welcome to do that.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That is not what I asked. I asked you to tell us what you think about this letter, of which you know the content.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I appreciate the comments, and my thoughts are completely reflected in the bill that you have before you. The one thing that you and I will agree on, Monsieur Ménard, are your initial comments that this bill means a great deal to me.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In the title of the bill, it simply says that this is an act to amend the Criminal Code, to protect children and other vulnerable persons.
When I hear you speak, I realize that you only ever refer to children. However, I believe you would acknowledge that several provisions apply to teenagers and young people.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Yet you keep on insisting on the word “children”.
Why don't you give this bill a title which better reflects who is covered?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
You're arguing whether 14-year-olds are still children, or 15-year-olds, or 13-year-olds. If you prefer the title “young people” en anglais, I don't have a particular problem with that. But what we're doing is zeroing in on children.
As a matter of fact, what law enforcement agencies have been telling me is that the images quite frankly are getting younger all the time on that. There are approximately 750,000 pedophiles online at any particular time. There are millions of images. And they tell me the trend over the last ten years, believe it or not, is to keep getting the images of younger people being exploited, younger children. So that is what we're zeroing in on.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
When you became Minister of Justice in 2006, I believe, the department had commissioned a study from Mr. Julian Roberts on minimum sentencing in other Commonwealth countries. His report came out in 2006.
Are you aware of this study?
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Do you acknowledge what Mr. Roberts concluded, as is reflected in the letter sent by the Church Council on Justice and Corrections? He concluded that imposing minimum sentences in Commonwealth countries has apparently had no effect in terms of reducing the number of offences to which these minimum sentences apply.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
First of all, I didn't come to the Department of Justice in 2006. It was 2007, just a little over four years ago now.
I'm aware of a number of reports. Sometimes I'm told that the Americans have very tough mandatory penalties in this area. There are a number of Commonwealth countries that don't have mandatory sentencing. This is a Canadian approach. I think it will work, Monsieur Ménard.
I hope this gets your support, because we're protecting those vulnerable people in society. I appreciate that there are those, including yourself, who don't like mandatory penalties. But again we have to send out the right message. The problem is getting much worse over the last few years.
This is what law enforcement agencies tell me. They tell me that the number of images, for instance, since 2003 has quadrupled, all of them depicting children being abused and exploited on the Internet. We have to take action on that. The problem hasn't been getting better these last four or five years, and this is exactly what we need.
I want you to have a particular look at those new offences that are in the business of preventing this kind of activity: two people getting together to discuss setting up a child or the person who gives sexually explicit material to a child. These are designed to stop the child sexual exploitation before it reaches its inevitable conclusion.
So intervening ahead of time, in my opinion, is updating the law and is exactly where we have to go. The problem has gotten much worse in the last few years, and we need legislation like this to deal with it.
