Thank you.
Mr. Côté.
Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was age.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was age.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here. They have had an opportunity to see that our work environment is pretty pleasant, especially when we are considering a bill on which we agree fairly well. It also feels like we can implement measures to improve things.
Last week, I spoke to someone I have known for years: the first swimmer to cross Lake Saint-Jean, Jacques Amyot. He also swam across the English Channel—between the United Kingdom and France—twice. This man, who is almost 88 years old, goes to Lake Saint-Jean every year to watch the crossing. He was telling me with a spark in his eyes that he no longer goes there alone. He is always accompanied when he drives through the park, which takes him about three hours. Only a few years ago, he went off the road and has not wanted to risk repeating that experience. It is always impressive to see someone who is 88 years old, stands up straight and is in great shape. We cannot imagine that he could be a victim of abuse.
Of course, during our hearings, the Université de Sherbrooke's Marie Beaulieu, the Research Chair on Mistreatment of Older Adults, did tell us that a person's vulnerability or state is not the only factor that should be considered; their environment must also be considered.
Let's come back to the issue of significant impact and the wording of the proposed subparagraph. An objective we have had for a very long time is to resolve this serious issue where a huge number of abuse cases fall through the cracks of the justice system. One of the reasons we are wondering whether using the wording “significant impact” in the amendment could be an issue is that we are afraid that too many cases could continue to fall through the cracks.
I would like to hear what you think about that. Will considering that victims are affected owing to their age enable us to cast a wider net, even if it means using means other than the justice system? After all, when police officers become involved, they can easily refer a case to social services, for instance, instead of....
4:35 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
Do you mean without consent from the person?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
That's why we're working hard to try to look at how they can report to us if the person doesn't want it to be reported. Can we knock on the door? It's not so simple.
4:35 p.m.
Program Supervisor of Social Work, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, Catholic Social Services
In our multidisciplinary team, we do get referrals passed on from the police asking us to go and knock on the door and check into a situation. If they say they don't wish to engage with us, then we step out. We are trying to get to an understanding if there is any concern, and just planting the seed that if and when you're ready to talk about it, then we're here for you.
I actually had a case before I flew out where three police officers, due to the high level of violence, had to meet me at a home. We talked to the seniors, and after, the police officers said it was so nice to see that there was something on the other side, because they had been there the night before for the breach of the emergency protection order and made an arrest, but the processing time took longer than when he was in remand and then released. They said that to see this working in partnership and that there was something on the other side was so invaluable.
My colleague, Pat, has also pointed out that we need more teams across the country that are all working together to address this. You can't do it with just the police, just a social worker, just a nurse.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I would like to come back to my concern about the current wording, which I discussed earlier. Is my concern justified? I am afraid that we will continue missing so many cases and that we will be unable to deal with them in one way or another.
4:35 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
I think you were talking about this older gentleman who was quite competent and able, etc. If that person was a victim of a criminal act, he would go through the normal channels, he would porter plainte. I don't know how to say it in English. If it was his family member who had done it, it would be a whole different dynamic for him. That's when he would need a different type of support.
When you said here “concerning their age and other personal circumstances, including their health and financial situation”, if it does get to the stage of sentencing, you will be looking at what impact it had on that person, which is different from your well person, who is just like you and I. It is that person who was taken advantage of. A crime was committed against them because they were frail, because it had an impact on their health and it had an impact on their financial situation.
October 16th, 2012 / 4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate all the presentations of our witnesses today. This is something all of us can give an example of, whether it be personally or someone that we know. I'm very happy to be here today.
One of the themes that I've questioned many of the witnesses on is our aging demographics. For example, in 2012, there are 4.8 million people aged 65 years and older, and that represents about 14% of the Canadian population. The number of people in this age bracket is expected to exceed 10 million by 2036, which is almost 25% of the Canadian population.
As the Minister of Justice and some witnesses who have testified before this committee have stated, this phenomenon is resulting in increased cases of elder abuse, whether it be physical or psychological abuse, financial exploitation or negligence. Specific examples of elder abuse receive regular media attention condemning these kinds of acts. Recurring themes that I've seen are the grandparent scam, in which seniors are asked by someone claiming to be their grandchildren to wire money to pay for a bill or for car repairs.
Many of the examples that you've given today are in-home or institutional neglect. There was a case of an elderly Scarborough woman with dementia allegedly forced to sleep in her son's garage. Ms. Perka brought up a particularly compelling example, and, sadly, I'm sure each one of you could probably give an equally compelling example.
Given that we see this demographic shift as our population ages, and particularly that there is an increased amount of media attention towards this general issue of elder abuse and how we are grappling with it, first of all—I'll address this to Ms. Santos, and if I have time I'll ask for other input—do you feel at this particular time that the legislation is worth pursuing moving forward?
4:40 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
As I said, it's worthwhile pursuing it going forward, but at the same time there have to be other resources and other approaches as well to make sure that.... As you mentioned, we have an aging population, and in most of those who are aging there's also an increase in the numbers of old people with dementia. Therefore, we need to address that population as well to make sure their needs are also being met.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
You—and I think some of the other witnesses—mentioned the importance of this legislation and also of education and what not. Currently in your profession is there work under way to help with the awareness of elder abuse and to help professionals identify it, which would also help the average citizen benefit from this legislation?
4:40 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
We're doing that with the work we've done with the Canadian Nurses Association prevention of elder abuse centres of excellence, or PEACE, which started out with 10 long-term care homes. In Ontario we're trying to roll out that education to all long-term care homes.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
This is something that not just your provincial association but also other associations of a more national scope are working towards. Again, that really works in parallel with this legislation moving forward, so you have not only deterrence from and denunciation of elder abuse, but also people who are trained, who are oftentimes in first contact as signs of it come up. Is that correct?
4:40 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
Yes, and we're also developing best practice guidelines that will be applicable not only to Ontario but, we're hoping, to all the provinces as well, so there's consistency in approach to that particular situation.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Okay.
I'm just opening it up to some of the other witnesses here. It seems that Ms. Santos' organization is certainly working towards this. Is the timing of this legislation also going to coincide with some changes in your profession as well?
4:40 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
In Alberta about two years ago an elder abuse strategy for the province was developed, and in the last year and a half a coordinator for the prevention of elder abuse has been hired to work on some of the different strategies coming out of the strategy. I feel that in the province itself there's a movement towards really trying to identify the issue of elder abuse more clearly across the province, to create more awareness, and to develop these community responses I was talking about earlier. In all the smaller communities across Alberta, I'm hearing more and more that whole communities are getting behind these different strategies and trying to develop some kind of response. I know through the elder abuse team the education part happens.
We do presentations to students at the U of A and the U of C, and we're involved with presentations, with professional networks, and with other organizations. So that does happen, and I think it's probably the case in a lot of provinces that this kind of education is happening.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here.
I can tell every time a question is asked and an example is given and I see all four of you nodding your head that you've been there, seen that, done that, and tried to cope with that. Obviously we have a group of witnesses before us who are very much on the front lines, and we really appreciate you taking the time, particularly those who've had to travel quite a way to be here with us.
I think we all know—and I include all my colleagues here—that this is just one aspect of what we're trying to do to improve awareness, to improve sanctions, to find ways to develop programs that can help the elderly. I certainly was involved with elder care with both my parents before they passed away, and as everyone does in that situation, I saw their ability to cope, or their ability to deal with stress and different situations change over the course of their lifetime. I think that's something that a lot of Canadians experience and know of.
As part of those overall things in addition to this kind of legislation, our government has brought in many awareness campaigns and funding initiatives. I think awareness is a big issue. We do know, through our studies and through looking at the outcomes, that people have a greater awareness today of just what elder abuse is than they did at one time. I know, for instance, our new horizons for seniors program is something that was developed and now has an annual budget of $45 million. We've gone up $10 million from the last budget to try to create programs.
Ms. Santos, I think at least your organization did apply under that program. What are you planning to do with that funding?
4:45 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
We are developing the best practice guideline, as I've mentioned, which is not just going to benefit Ontario but all the other provinces as well.
Also, we're going to be developing indicators to measure outcomes and e-learning as an educational component to help disseminate the recommendations from the best practice guideline.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Have either of your other two groups benefited from those kinds of initiatives?
4:45 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
Yes. I'm part of the Canadian Network for the Protection of Elder Abuse. We applied for funds. We're looking to build, over two and a half years, communication and connections among all the organizations across Canada, so there will be more going back and forth between Nova Scotia and B.C. and so on, as to what the best practices are, and to share those best practices. We really want to have more of a web right across Canada in terms of talking with each other, working with each other, in terms of the whole nation, if we can. I'm really talking big here, but we're hopeful that we can pull off an even bigger Canadian network. We do have the network itself now, but we want to build on what we have.
4:45 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
New Horizons has, I think, funded projects in every province of Canada, and it is very important to the work on elder abuse. There is a lot of similarity among projects across the province. I think the Canadian network does a lot of work to see how we could share information, so that we're not always reinventing the wheel, but every province also has its own initiatives.
Quebec has a four-year elder abuse action plan. It is a multi-faceted plan; it's interesting. I think if people get a chance to read it they should. Ontario had its action plan. I think the Canadian network has also applied for funding from New Horizons, which it didn't get, but people are volunteering their time to link what's going on throughout the provinces and the territories on their own time. The amount of work that people are doing on their own time is amazing.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
I applaud those who do, because obviously this is the kind of issue that isn't just about governments; it's about communities coming together and awareness of all people, and particularly those on the front lines, so we really do appreciate all your efforts.
Now that we are proposing this legislation, this will bring this together, as you said. When and if it gets to that stage, then at least we have this.
It's also a matter of showing a deterrent, showing a concern, putting it at a level where all Canadians can see that we consider it a serious issue. I have seen in my law practice, before becoming an MP, that sometimes just the fact that law enforcement officials get involved and are investigating and looking at it will lead to an end of the abuse. Even if it doesn't get to a further stage because the elder person doesn't want to testify, for instance, the abuse stops. So at least that result is gained.
Would you agree with that? Any comments on that?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
The research I have done has demonstrated that the moment you detect the abuse and you talk about it, the frequency and the severity decrease by almost 50%, so it does have an impact.