Thank you.
Mr. Jacob.
Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was age.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was age.
A recording is available from Parliament.
October 16th, 2012 / 4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Lithwick, you talked about zero tolerance in hospital centres. I also liked the fact that you discussed harm reduction if close relatives are involved. In your statement, you talked about the difficulties involved in reporting elder abuse cases, as well.
Other witnesses pointed out that sentencing is one of the last steps of judicial proceedings, and a very small percentage of elder abuse cases are reported to the police or reach the stage where charges are laid before courts.
In your opinion, what, if any, will be the impact of Bill C-36 on cases other than those where elder abuse has reached the sentencing stage? Do you think it will contribute to preventing elder abuse and will also encourage reporting, which is often difficult to do?
4:20 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
I think once you're at the point of sentencing, you're probably dealing with pretty extreme cases. It is hard to get someone to porter plainte. If you do get to this point, especially with those people who have a formal caregiver, not a family caregiver who has neglected an elderly person, and they have horrible bedsores or they're malnourished, or a person has been defrauded, we want that message to be clear. I agree with it; I think it is going to have an impact.
Most of the provinces, if they don't have an action plan yet on elder abuse, at least they're talking about it. We're all doing different things to address elder abuse in a multisectoral and multi-faceted way. There are teams like you have in Edmonton. We have teams in Quebec. We're looking at it in a very multi-faceted way. Criminality is just one part of the continuum in what we need to do to address this problem.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I will give the other members an opportunity to speak, if they want to.
No one wants to talk, so my subquestion would be....
4:25 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
This is more in agreement with Ms. Lithwick in terms of the other things that need to be done. There has to be a comprehensive program looking at anything from the awareness we see with the ads on TV to the things now happening in the community. In Alberta we're doing a lot more community responses, with a holistic approach in those communities, to intervene and deal with those situations, along with the amended act here, which will help.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Okay.
Should any other measures be used to denounce, prevent and punish elder abuse? Could you tell us more about that, please?
The question is for one of the four witnesses, or all four of them.
4:25 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
Are there any other approaches?
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
In addition to passing Bill C-36, should we take any other measures to denounce, prevent and punish elder abuse? Also, should anything be added to Bill C-36 to prevent, denounce and punish elder abuse?
4:25 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
In terms of prevention, and it may not answer your question, there's a program out of B.C. called financial literacy. That is a very good preventive program that we need to look at in other provinces across Canada, as far as working with seniors, to help educate, if I can put it that way, in terms of how not to get into certain situations that they're getting into, and even if they're in it, to get out of those situations sooner. It's taking a different approach on that other end of the spectrum.
If we're really serious about this as we get older, and I'm 65 in eight years, we recognize that these situations are very common. They're very normal and they're very subtle—how we start lending. I'm lending more and more money to my kids. Then it can reach a point where it goes beyond, where it starts to move into the area of abuse. That happens so suddenly that sometimes you don't know it until you're there and it's almost too late to go back.
So we need those other kinds of supports, like the programs like financial literacy, that help empower you, to give you that self-esteem to deal with those situations. I'm talking like a social worker now, but that's what I am. Those are some of the things we need to look at in any society, within our communities, to help all of us, age-related or not, just in terms of how we deal with other people and how we get trapped into these situations.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Santos, thank you for coming today. I want to ask you a question because you have a specialized background in nursing.
We certainly heard some cases that are not anything we could support, some very shocking things. My colleague Madame Boivin just mentioned a case. Do you see how this legislation can be helpful in those circumstances, and are there other things that you think we should consider?
4:25 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
Yes. As I mentioned earlier in my opening remarks, we do support the changes in the legislation, but we did say, just as the other witnesses have mentioned, that it's a multi-faceted approach. What I've also seen in the work that we've done with the long-term care task force is that there's also resident abuse, and often some of those residents are cognitively impaired. There has to be some kind of support for those residents, like having a dementia unit or maybe a behavioural support unit to support those residents and make everyone safe.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
One of the things that I've heard several times, including today—I think, Ms. Lithwick, you brought it up, and we heard it from CARP when they testified. They're talking about a duty to report. That's a very interesting concept, one that I only have five minutes to explore, probably less than that now.
How would you envision that duty to report working, and who do you think should have that duty? How do you think we should impose that duty, if we were to do that?
Ms. Santos, maybe you could start and others could chime in.
4:30 p.m.
Program Manager, Long-Term Care Best Practices Initiative, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
I think duty to report is an accountability for everyone. In terms of the long-term care perspective, there has to be support from the organization, so that the staff are supported and they have whistle-blower protection to make sure that when they are disclosing an abuse they are protected, rather than being punished for bringing up the issue.
4:30 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
There is some duty to report in terms of the Alberta legislation for the Protection for Persons in Care Act. I'm not familiar with some of the other acts in the other provinces. That's related to staff who are abusing or assaulting a senior in that particular publicly funded accommodation. There is that, and certainly we see the benefits of that, the importance of that, how those cases get reported and dealt with in the way they need to be.
I don't want to be quoted on this, but I believe Nova Scotia has some legislation around duty to report. I do know they have the authority to deal with situations of elder abuse in the community. So there is that. Then there are variations in other provinces as far as duty to report when it comes to certain circumstances.
I would like to see some of that happen to some degree for sure. Even as a social worker, I'm sad to say that I really don't have to report elder abuse. It's not stated anywhere that I need to. Child abuse, definitely; I do have to report that, for sure.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Do you think it should be mandatory for anybody working in elder care? Do you think there should be a proactive duty imposed on anybody working in those fields?
4:30 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
Yes, in those situations, sure, there should be.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
I think the duty to report and the whole issue of being bound by our professional orders of confidentiality are in conflict. If we are bound to report, that releases us from our duty of confidentiality. The importance of reporting is to ensure that we can do the right types of interventions. I don't think we have to necessarily think that if you report it, it's all going to go the criminal way.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
You see that there might be a conflict between someone's duty of confidentiality and the duty to report, were it imposed.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Department of Social Services, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
No, I think it might release the person from their confidentiality, and they would be able to do something to help. As I mentioned before, where there is a duty to report—in the United States, most of the states have mandatory reporting laws—they do not see more situations of elder abuse. They also have a different health and social service system. Very often, the only way these victims of abuse can get home help is if they have been signalled as being abused.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
How do you impose the duty? Is this legislation that is going to govern certain people in certain occupations? Is that how it's done in other jurisdictions? Is that something you would like to see here?
4:30 p.m.
Community Development Social Worker, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, City of Edmonton
I think that's a way to go. Look at physicians, for example, and social workers. Yes, for sure, identify who has that duty to report.
4:30 p.m.
Program Supervisor of Social Work, Elder Abuse Intervention Team, Catholic Social Services
The other thing I would love to add about duty to report is that there has to be education so that they can see it in the first place. That's lacking. Once you talk about it with someone who calls or does intake, they think, “Right, I probably should have called a couple of months ago.” That education is so they know what to report and what not to report.