Evidence of meeting #9 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
The Canada Border Services Agency is not requesting additional resources to implement this legislation.
This will become part of our regular duties. We've had a look at the potential volumes and we've assessed that we can absorb it within existing resources.
December 5th, 2013 / 9:25 a.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
You spoke about a number of your projects as well as the strategy that you launched in 2008, allowing you to lay almost 5,000 charges and disrupt 66 criminal groups. However those are prevention strategies, and not pressure strategies. What I am getting at, as you mentioned Mr. Leckey, is that this bill will not address the core problem, in other words it won't completely eliminate contraband tobacco. We can talk about contraband nevertheless, and in particular, this crucial problem that is the focus of this legislation.
Do you think that this bill will really change something, that there will be a decrease in contraband, or that it will simply give you tools to combat contraband?
9:25 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I would like to think that the tools given to us will help reduce contraband activities, which affects a number of regions in this country. However it would be difficult to attach a number to that. Be that as it may, the new legislation will not replace existing initiatives, including those in prevention and education. The RCMP has a role to play in this regard, and so do the other partners.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I would like to speak about first nations.
You are probably familiar with the Gladue report. Under section 718.2 (e) of the Criminal Code, judges must take into account certain factors. Last week a report revealed that aboriginals are overepresented in prison.
Do you think that this bill could lead to an increase in this overrepresentation?
9:25 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No, I don't think so. As I explained earlier, aboriginal groups are not the only ones involved in trafficking contraband tobacco. There are also groups that live off-reserves and others that are made up of non-aboriginals.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Do you think that enforcing the Aboriginal Justice Strategy will require more funding if there is an increase? My question is for both witnesses.
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I can give a brief answer.
An initiative is under way to call for additional resources for aboriginal policing. In this case that would be an asset.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
As I mentioned, we're not seeking additional resources for the implementation of this act.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you for those questions and those answers.
Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Dechert.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for sharing your expertise here with us this morning.
Inspector Cormier, I was struck by a number of things you said in your opening comments. You mentioned that criminal organizations are “exploiting” first nations communities and that there are “violence and intimidation tactics” associated with illegal tobacco that are also being imposed on or carried out against people in first nations communities.
First of all, can you tell us who the criminal organizations are that you're referring to? Are they the common names that we would understand as being associated with the types of criminal organizations that are involved in these kinds of activities? Can you describe for us some of the violence and intimidation tactics you were referring to?
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I can answer part of that, I guess.
When I was talking about the different groups that are involved, we're talking about 66 different groups that we have identified through the course of a number of investigations. It would be difficult for me to list them all here.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I may not have to even mention them for you folks to already be aware of who those groups are, such as the Hells Angels or the Outlaws motorcycle gangs. There are some that are also native-based organized crime groups. There is a variety of groups that are involved here.
Also, you have to keep in mind that the definition of “criminal organization” under the Criminal Code is three or more people, so it doesn't take a large group to become a criminal organization or to be recognized as a criminal organization. As long as you have three people or more who are organized and engaging in criminal activity essentially to advance a criminal enterprise, they would fall under that definition.
As a result of that, the numbers can rise. It's difficult, as I say, to list what all the groups are. Those are only two examples.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you.
Let me ask you a question in respect to the Hells Angels, for example. They are somewhat involved in the trade of illegal contraband tobacco, would you say?
9:30 a.m.
A voice
[Inaudible—Editor]
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
They take this contraband tobacco from first nations reserves and distribute it in other places across the country. Are they the same kinds of organizations that sell other kinds of drugs like marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, and other things?
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. Typically, organized crime groups are involved in more than one type of crime. A lot of those criminal organizations are involved in crime that will bring them a profit. It's a for-profit crime.
The contraband tobacco is a very profitable industry. That's why they engage in those types of activities, but yes, those organized crime groups would not necessarily be engaged solely in contraband tobacco trafficking.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Like any good business person in the retail industry, they have a range of products available for their customers, and as you pointed out, the profit from illegal tobacco is helpful to them and probably contributes to their ability to sell other products as well.
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Unfortunately, that is the reality.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay. You also mentioned that in your view, contraband tobacco remains a serious threat to public safety if left unchecked. Can you expand on that a little and tell us what you mean?
9:30 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, and there are different parts to that question.
One part is the way illegal tobacco is produced. A lot of people don't know what all is included in that. Some of that tobacco in production is swept off floors and unbeknownst to the user, may contain mice feces and other substances.
Also, we all know about the effects of tobacco. That has been publicized over the years. There are the effects on the health of an individual, as well as the impact it has on our youth, essentially, who are exposed to that. There are a number of factors that relate to the health and safety of Canadians and also to their well-being and their overall safety.
When we talk about criminal organizations being involved in intimidation tactics and violence, as I described in my previous remarks, those are all things that impact the safety of Canadians.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
In your view, does the trade in contraband tobacco bring into first nations communities violence that might not otherwise be there?
9:35 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay, and then if these outside criminal organizations find that it's a profitable business, they'll go to the first nations reserve and recruit people to work with them in this form of illegal activity, who I suppose might graduate to other forms of illegal activity.
9:35 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Typically, yes. You're right. Being involved in criminal activity is kind of a gradual thing.